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#3161433 - 02/12/13 05:32 PM Change In Hunting Reg's?
landman
10 Point


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2746
Loc: TN & Western KY

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Heard they were going to 2 Bucks this year
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#3161439 - 02/12/13 05:35 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: landman]
Beardendy88
4 Point


Registered: 07/07/12
Posts: 360
Loc: North Alabama

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The world has gone nuts
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#3161471 - 02/12/13 05:59 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Beardendy88]
tn droptine
8 Point


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 1342
Loc: Chester Co, TN/Afghanistan

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#3161556 - 02/12/13 06:48 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: tn droptine]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25536
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

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Where did you hear that,okwith me
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#3161557 - 02/12/13 06:48 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: tn droptine]
Hollar Hunter
8 Point


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2296
Loc: TN

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Hope so
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#3161565 - 02/12/13 06:58 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Hollar Hunter]
deerhunter10
10 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 3542
Loc: maury county tn

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id be ok with that. but I highly doubt they did I doubt they change anything.
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#3161600 - 02/12/13 07:17 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: deerhunter10]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2835
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

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 Originally Posted By: deerhunter10
id be ok with that. but I highly doubt they did I doubt they change anything.


Yep I highly doubt it too.
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#3161631 - 02/12/13 07:34 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: landman]
Boll Weevil
8 Point


Registered: 06/26/11
Posts: 1332
Loc: Hardeman

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Hm...cool.
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#3161635 - 02/12/13 07:35 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Boll Weevil]
Barnes Ridge Rambler
6 Point


Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 516
Loc: Tennessee

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I hope they do.
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#3161637 - 02/12/13 07:37 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Barnes Ridge Rambler]
TN RDG RNR
12 Point


Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 7182
Loc: Rhea County

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LOL
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#3161639 - 02/12/13 07:38 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Barnes Ridge Rambler]
Bone Collector
14 Point


Registered: 09/09/09
Posts: 9646
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN

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Wow, I heard they were going to 4 buck. Well one of us will be right, or we'll both be wrong.
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#3161643 - 02/12/13 07:40 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Bone Collector]
gator-n-buck
WAFL
18 Point


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 22456
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL

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#3161730 - 02/12/13 08:25 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: gator-n-buck]
mathews338
12 Point


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 5409
Loc: jackson co.

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Dang it. I was hoping we would go back to 11 so spikes would be considered a trophy again!
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#3161740 - 02/12/13 08:32 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: mathews338]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12099
Loc: Benton Co.

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Rumors and Gossip .They have tweaked the regs enough that they are pert near perfect.
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#3161756 - 02/12/13 08:43 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: TN RDG RNR]
cecil30-30
16 Point


Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 14345
Loc: Morgan Co

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What would it save???? About 1500 bucks statewide...
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#3161779 - 02/12/13 08:53 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: cecil30-30]
Beardendy88
4 Point


Registered: 07/07/12
Posts: 360
Loc: North Alabama

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Why do some want a 2 buck limit? The only difference it will make is on wma's because many of those who own land and hunt (not all) will shot as many as they want. I personally only normally kill 2 a year and rarely kill a third but it's nice to have that in my pocket during late season.
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#3161799 - 02/12/13 09:05 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Beardendy88]
deerhunter10
10 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 3542
Loc: maury county tn

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id rather see a little tweaking on the seasons rather then the limit. id like every season to open up a week or two or even earlier. I personally like the way it ends but that's just me. id love to have a legit shot at a velvet buck. that's just my two cents.
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#3161805 - 02/12/13 09:08 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Beardendy88]
landman
10 Point


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2746
Loc: TN & Western KY

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 Originally Posted By: Beardendy88
Why do some want a 2 buck limit? The only difference it will make is on wma's because many of those who own land and hunt (not all) will shot as many as they want. I personally only normally kill 2 a year and rarely kill a third but it's nice to have that in my pocket during late season.


Some want 1 buck, some want 2, some even voted for Obama
_________________________
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#3161817 - 02/12/13 09:16 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: landman]
Beardendy88
4 Point


Registered: 07/07/12
Posts: 360
Loc: North Alabama

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 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: Beardendy88
Why do some want a 2 buck limit? The only difference it will make is on wma's because many of those who own land and hunt (not all) will shot as many as they want. I personally only normally kill 2 a year and rarely kill a third but it's nice to have that in my pocket during late season.


Some want 1 buck, some want 2, some even voted for Obama

Haha! I like it

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#3161869 - 02/12/13 09:43 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Beardendy88]
Outdoor life
6 Point


Registered: 12/19/12
Posts: 891
Loc: Jackson Co. TN

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I'll be alright with 2 (around here anyway) cause I rarely see bucks here, but this area is FULL of doe.
In fact I kinda wish Jackson County would become unit L so in rifle we can take a few of these doe. (of course I only have the poor mans rifle--shotgun with slug) Can't afford anything else at the moment.
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#3161912 - 02/12/13 10:27 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Beardendy88]
Hollar Hunter
8 Point


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2296
Loc: TN

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 Originally Posted By: Beardendy88
Why do some want a 2 buck limit? The only difference it will make is on wma's because many of those who own land and hunt (not all) will shot as many as they want. I personally only normally kill 2 a year and rarely kill a third but it's nice to have that in my pocket during late season.


Exactly people who will shoot 2 off the top because they've a 3rd tag would stop them from shooting that 2nd immature buck....
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#3161913 - 02/12/13 10:29 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Bone Collector]
Hollar Hunter
8 Point


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2296
Loc: TN

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 Originally Posted By: Bone Collector
Wow, I heard they were going to 4 buck. Well one of us will be right, or we'll both be wrong.


That would be just stupid
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#3161920 - 02/12/13 10:45 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Hollar Hunter]
lpo1981
6 Point


Registered: 01/20/12
Posts: 674
Loc: Dickson, TN

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Wish they would leave the buck limit alone! I've personally never tagged out on bucks ever.. I wish they would address the seasons and dates more and tweak them and give us a primitive weapons season in October.
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#3161926 - 02/12/13 11:17 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: lpo1981]
Vermin93
12 Point


Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 6400
Loc: Dallas, TX & Signal Mtn, TN

Offline
I hope it's true, but I doubt it is.
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#3161968 - 02/13/13 05:13 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Hollar Hunter]
Beardendy88
4 Point


Registered: 07/07/12
Posts: 360
Loc: North Alabama

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 Originally Posted By: Hollar Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Beardendy88
Why do some want a 2 buck limit? The only difference it will make is on wma's because many of those who own land and hunt (not all) will shot as many as they want. I personally only normally kill 2 a year and rarely kill a third but it's nice to have that in my pocket during late season.


Exactly people who will shoot 2 off the top because they've a 3rd tag would stop them from shooting that 2nd immature buck....

If a hunter is gonna shoot a young buck early in the year then their probably gonna shoot a young buck with their first tag.

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#3162072 - 02/13/13 08:00 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Hollar Hunter]
stik
"Popcorn"
18 Point


Registered: 03/12/99
Posts: 21393
Loc: lenoir city,tn

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 Originally Posted By: Hollar Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Bone Collector
Wow, I heard they were going to 4 buck. Well one of us will be right, or we'll both be wrong.


That would be just stupid

stupid?? wow. how so?

i hope they leave it alone. 3 is perfect.
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#3162087 - 02/13/13 08:10 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Outdoor life]
ROUGH COUNTRY HUNTER
16 Point


Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 12924
Loc: FRANKLIN COUNTY

Offline
if you like a 2 buck limit,stop at 2
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#3162097 - 02/13/13 08:15 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Beardendy88]
muddyboots
12 Point


Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 7406
Loc: savannah, tn., usa

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 Originally Posted By: Beardendy88
 Originally Posted By: Hollar Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Beardendy88
Why do some want a 2 buck limit? The only difference it will make is on wma's because many of those who own land and hunt (not all) will shot as many as they want. I personally only normally kill 2 a year and rarely kill a third but it's nice to have that in my pocket during late season.


Exactly people who will shoot 2 off the top because they've a 3rd tag would stop them from shooting that 2nd immature buck....

If a hunter is gonna shoot a young buck early in the year then their probably gonna shoot a young buck with their first tag.


Yep but he will shoot one instead of two.
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#3162102 - 02/13/13 08:18 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: TN RDG RNR]
ROUGH COUNTRY HUNTER
16 Point


Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 12924
Loc: FRANKLIN COUNTY

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i see that alot of you guys believe that a 2 buck limit would have mature bucks behind every tree,not going to happen
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#3162114 - 02/13/13 08:23 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: ROUGH COUNTRY HUNTER]
Diehard Hunter
CRAMP
12 Point


Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 6980
Loc: East Tennessee

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Give one sound biological reason for a lower buck limit. How will it improve the health of the heard?
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#3162126 - 02/13/13 08:31 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Diehard Hunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
Give one sound biological reason for a lower buck limit. How will it improve the health of the heard?


I believe lowering the buck limit would produce very little if any biological results or improvements.

That said, I would have no problem with a 2 buck limit. Personally, I've never shot 3 bucks in a single year, and I've been hunting in TN for over 25 years. In fact, I've rarely shot 2 bucks in a year.
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3162128 - 02/13/13 08:34 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Diehard Hunter]
landman
10 Point


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2746
Loc: TN & Western KY

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 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
Give one sound biological reason for a lower buck limit. How will it improve the health of the heard?



Health of the herd?

So If the herd is better this way why are we seeing more out breaks
of EHD in TN, this was 2 out of the last 5.

But do you thing the State of TN Deer are in better health than 10-15 years ago?

I don't care if they go to 1 or better yet, earn a buck tag, kill
a doe before you can kill every buck, sounds good to me
_________________________
"BUY LAND. THEY AIN'T MAKING ANY MORE OF THE STUFF"
- Will Rogers

http://www.JimmySettleLand.com

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#3162134 - 02/13/13 08:39 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: landman]
Beardendy88
4 Point


Registered: 07/07/12
Posts: 360
Loc: North Alabama

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 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
Give one sound biological reason for a lower buck limit. How will it improve the health of the heard?



Health of the herd?

So If the herd is better this way why are we seeing more out breaks
of EHD in TN, this was 2 out of the last 5.

But do you thing the State of TN Deer are in better health than 10-15 years ago?

I don't care if they go to 1 or better yet, earn a buck tag, kill
a doe before you can kill every buck, sounds good to me

I might be wrong but don't the states in the Midwest that have lower buck limits have more outbreaks of EHD? It seemed like last summer the drury boys were posting a few pictures of deer found dead.

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#3162150 - 02/13/13 08:44 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: landman]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
Give one sound biological reason for a lower buck limit. How will it improve the health of the heard?



Health of the herd?

So If the herd is better this way why are we seeing more out breaks
of EHD in TN, this was 2 out of the last 5.


Hemorrhagic Disease (HD) is endemic in the Southeast. Some cases occur every year. Big outbreaks generally only occur when the conditions are just right (few deer with immunity and a hot/dry late summer). HD also has absolutely nothing to do with herd health. It strikes under-populated and over-populated herds equally.

In TN, we've had only one major HD outbreak in the last 6 years (2007). However, southern IL, which supposedly has much healthier deer herds, has seen two outbreaks in the same time-frame. Again, HD outbreaks have nothing to do with herd health.


 Quote:
But do you thing the State of TN Deer are in better health than 10-15 years ago?


Yes, absolutely, but primarily because of the '07 HD outbreak. I was becoming deeply concerned about over-population in some parts of western TN, but the HD outbreak in '07 (which knocked the population down to healthier levels), followed by continued high doe harvests (which prevented the herd from rebounding to the unhealthy pre-HD-outbreak levels) has produced a healthier herd than what we had in '05 and '06.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3162179 - 02/13/13 08:59 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: ROUGH COUNTRY HUNTER]
mathews338
12 Point


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 5409
Loc: jackson co.

Offline
 Originally Posted By: ROUGH COUNTRY HUNTER
i see that alot of you guys believe that a 2 buck limit would have mature bucks behind every tree,not going to happen
no body such a thing, a lot of guys think it well help a little bit. some areas it would help and others you would see very little difference.

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#3162203 - 02/13/13 09:18 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
landman
10 Point


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2746
Loc: TN & Western KY

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
Give one sound biological reason for a lower buck limit. How will it improve the health of the heard?



Health of the herd?

So If the herd is better this way why are we seeing more out breaks
of EHD in TN, this was 2 out of the last 5.


Hemorrhagic Disease (HD) is endemic in the Southeast. Some cases occur every year. Big outbreaks generally only occur when the conditions are just right (few deer with immunity and a hot/dry late summer). HD also has absolutely nothing to do with herd health. It strikes under-populated and over-populated herds equally.

In TN, we've had only one major HD outbreak in the last 6 years (2007). However, southern IL, which supposedly has much healthier deer herds, has seen two outbreaks in the same time-frame. Again, HD outbreaks have nothing to do with herd health.


 Quote:
But do you thing the State of TN Deer are in better health than 10-15 years ago?


Yes, absolutely, but primarily because of the '07 HD outbreak. I was becoming deeply concerned about over-population in some parts of western TN, but the HD outbreak in '07 (which knocked the population down to healthier levels), followed by continued high doe harvests (which prevented the herd from rebounding to the unhealthy pre-HD-outbreak levels) has produced a healthier herd than what we had in '05 and '06.

We had it again this year in parts of Montgomery and Stewart Counties.
But Isn't most of those Mid-West states deer herd numbers on the rise? I may be wrong about that, you have better data on that I'm sure. Seems to me lower overall deer numbers means less die,
more food, etc. meaning more does need killing. I would be curious how many hunters killed bucks, but didn't shoot a doe.


Its like feeding deer, we will see that in the future I'm sure,
too much money behind it.... And before many start screaming I remember how the words Crossbow was 4-letter, but now.....

_________________________
"BUY LAND. THEY AIN'T MAKING ANY MORE OF THE STUFF"
- Will Rogers

http://www.JimmySettleLand.com

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#3162225 - 02/13/13 09:31 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Hollar Hunter]
Bone Collector
14 Point


Registered: 09/09/09
Posts: 9646
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Hollar Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Beardendy88
Why do some want a 2 buck limit? The only difference it will make is on wma's because many of those who own land and hunt (not all) will shot as many as they want. I personally only normally kill 2 a year and rarely kill a third but it's nice to have that in my pocket during late season.


Exactly people who will shoot 2 off the top because they've a 3rd tag would stop them from shooting that 2nd immature buck....


That is completely speculative. People who shoot "immature" bucks do so because they want to and because they don;t care about antlers and just want the meat. They also know you get as much meat off a 1.5 yr old buck as a 3 yr old doe and it doesn't taste any worse.

If they pass and wait for a doe, that opportunity may not come, but this one is here right now, so it pays to take the deer and not take the risk of not seeing a doe. Keep in mind not everyone has high deer densities where they hunt, even in Mid TN.

The guys like you that care about horns won't shoot the first immature buck so it comes down to choice and they should have that choice whether you agree or not.

I hunted Rutherford and Wilson counties this year. I saw lots of spikes and small bucks. I think I saw 10 does total from the stand from the bow opener to the last day. those 10 were seen on 3 separate sits in groups of 3, 4, and 3.


Edited by Bone Collector (02/13/13 09:31 AM)
_________________________
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“There are hunters and there are victims. By your discipline, cunning, obedience and alertness, you will decide if you are a hunter or a victim.”
General James Mattis

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#3162242 - 02/13/13 09:38 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Bone Collector]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2835
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

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Not arguing here, but we all have to remember the mindset of hunters is also greatly influenced by which Unit they have the opportunity to hunt. I guarantee you the mindset of the Unit B hunter is, in most cases, different from the Unit L hunter. Just saying that's a factor...
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-Ronald Firbank

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#3162265 - 02/13/13 10:05 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BlountArrow]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BlountArrow
Not arguing here, but we all have to remember the mindset of hunters is also greatly influenced by which Unit they have the opportunity to hunt. I guarantee you the mindset of the Unit B hunter is, in most cases, different from the Unit L hunter. Just saying that's a factor...


Excellent point. And not only are there different mindsets by location, I've noticed mindsets changing fairly rapidly over time.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3162278 - 02/13/13 10:16 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Bone Collector]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Bone Collector
 Originally Posted By: Hollar Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Beardendy88
Why do some want a 2 buck limit? The only difference it will make is on wma's because many of those who own land and hunt (not all) will shot as many as they want. I personally only normally kill 2 a year and rarely kill a third but it's nice to have that in my pocket during late season.


Exactly people who will shoot 2 off the top because they've a 3rd tag would stop them from shooting that 2nd immature buck....


That is completely speculative. People who shoot "immature" bucks do so because they want to...


Exactly. And what is also speculative and NOT backed up by data is the idea that if we kill less yearlings, we will then kill more older bucks in following years. When TN went from an 11 buck limit down to a 2 buck limit in 1998, we experienced a HUGE decline in yearling bucks killed that year. As the theory goes, hunters should have then killed many more 2 1/2 year-old bucks the following year (1999). But that didn't happen at all. In fact, there was barely even a blip in increase in 2 1/2 year-old bucks killed the next year. In fact, ever since the decline in buck limit in 1998, hunters have been killing far fewer yearling bucks than they used to. Yet older buck harvests have just slowly increased over time, staying on the slow rate of increase that started long before the reduction in buck limit.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3162285 - 02/13/13 10:25 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: landman]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
Give one sound biological reason for a lower buck limit. How will it improve the health of the heard?



Health of the herd?

So If the herd is better this way why are we seeing more out breaks
of EHD in TN, this was 2 out of the last 5.


Hemorrhagic Disease (HD) is endemic in the Southeast. Some cases occur every year. Big outbreaks generally only occur when the conditions are just right (few deer with immunity and a hot/dry late summer). HD also has absolutely nothing to do with herd health. It strikes under-populated and over-populated herds equally.

In TN, we've had only one major HD outbreak in the last 6 years (2007). However, southern IL, which supposedly has much healthier deer herds, has seen two outbreaks in the same time-frame. Again, HD outbreaks have nothing to do with herd health.


 Quote:
But do you thing the State of TN Deer are in better health than 10-15 years ago?


Yes, absolutely, but primarily because of the '07 HD outbreak. I was becoming deeply concerned about over-population in some parts of western TN, but the HD outbreak in '07 (which knocked the population down to healthier levels), followed by continued high doe harvests (which prevented the herd from rebounding to the unhealthy pre-HD-outbreak levels) has produced a healthier herd than what we had in '05 and '06.


We had it again this year in parts of Montgomery and Stewart Counties.


Which was only the southern edge of the huge outbreak centered in MO and IL last year, due to the extreme heat and severe drought the Midwest experienced.

 Quote:
But Isn't most of those Mid-West states deer herd numbers on the rise?


That's a good question. There is some evidence the Midwest's deer densities are declining.


 Quote:
Seems to me lower overall deer numbers means less die,
more food, etc. meaning more does need killing. I would be curious how many hunters killed bucks, but didn't shoot a doe.


The food-density realtionship you refer to is accurate, although it isn't so much deer dying of malnutrition related causes. The biggest symptom of over-population is greatly reduced fawn production. In essence, less healthy does produce fewer fawns, which slows herd growth.


 Quote:
Its like feeding deer, we will see that in the future I'm sure, too much money behind it....


That has already happened in the Deep South. The use of feeders in some Deep South locations, especially in central and southern AL, caused massively over-populated and underfed deer herds.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3162298 - 02/13/13 10:33 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Bone Collector]
Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point


Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 12232
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: Bone Collector
Wow, I heard they were going to 4 buck. Well one of us will be right, or we'll both be wrong.
I heard that unit L was going to one buck and the rest of the state was going to 4 either sex any time any weapon.
_________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)




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#3162318 - 02/13/13 10:51 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Beekeeper]
gator-n-buck
WAFL
18 Point


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 22456
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL

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I heard that we were going to only be able to kill those 2 bucks during spear season..... Only one spear per hunter and the blade had to be made out of stone..... \:\)

Here's the best place I have found to purchase a spear...

http://www.halloweencostumes.com/native-american-spear.html


Edited by gator-n-buck (02/13/13 10:58 AM)

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#3162380 - 02/13/13 11:59 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: landman]
Diehard Hunter
CRAMP
12 Point


Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 6980
Loc: East Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
Give one sound biological reason for a lower buck limit. How will it improve the health of the heard?



Health of the herd?

So If the herd is better this way why are we seeing more out breaks
of EHD in TN, this was 2 out of the last 5.

But do you thing the State of TN Deer are in better health than 10-15 years ago?

I don't care if they go to 1 or better yet, earn a buck tag, kill
a doe before you can kill every buck, sounds good to me


Yes, health of the herd....autocorrect got me.

So are you still thinging of an answer? If you THINK of one, let me know.
_________________________
The recreational value of a game animal is inverse to the artificiality of its origin and the intensiveness of the management system that produced it. Aldo Leopold


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#3162434 - 02/13/13 12:51 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Diehard Hunter]
fourwheeler431
14 Point


Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 8565
Loc: Powell

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I'm just glad to have the opportunity to hunt deer. I don't know anything thing about the biological end of management,but if we have trained biologists that say a 3 buck limit is best,who am I to argue with them about it. I would like more opportunity to harvest does here in unit B, but again if TWRA biologists feel it would negatively affect the heard as a whole I have no problem with it.
_________________________
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Marine General James Mattis to Iraqi tribal leaders.

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#3162451 - 02/13/13 01:03 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: fourwheeler431]
gator-n-buck
WAFL
18 Point


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 22456
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL

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 Originally Posted By: fourwheeler431
I'm just glad to have the opportunity to hunt deer. I don't know anything thing about the biological end of management,but if we have trained biologists that say a 3 buck limit is best,who am I to argue with them about it. I would like more opportunity to harvest does here in unit B, but again if TWRA biologists feel it would negatively affect the heard as a whole I have no problem with it.
I


X2..... Must be the water in Powell...... \:\)

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#3162461 - 02/13/13 01:08 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: fourwheeler431]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2835
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

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 Originally Posted By: fourwheeler431
I would like more opportunity to harvest does here in unit B, but again if TWRA biologists feel it would negatively affect the heard as a whole I have no problem with it.


I'm with you there. I just hope TWRA is keeping a close eye on Unit B. What you're suggesting would definitely help take the bullseye of the back of anything "antlered" that walks through the woods with a lot of folks I know.
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"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
-Ronald Firbank

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#3162470 - 02/13/13 01:17 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: fourwheeler431]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: fourwheeler431
I don't know anything thing about the biological end of management,but if we have trained biologists that say a 3 buck limit is best,who am I to argue with them about it.


I don't want to speak for the trained biologists that actually make the rules, but I suspect they would say that it isn't necessarily about a 3 buck limit being "best" biologically. It is that they believe a 3 buck limit provides the most hunting and harvest opportunity for hunters without doing harm to the resource. Good wildlife management is often a balancing act between what is best biologically versus what hunters (the actual managers of the resource) want. Quite often, that means giving the hunters/managers the maximum harvest opportunities that do no harm instead of setting rules that might maximize biological potential.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3162697 - 02/13/13 03:56 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BlountArrow]
gator-n-buck
WAFL
18 Point


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 22456
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL

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 Originally Posted By: BlountArrow
 Originally Posted By: fourwheeler431
I would like more opportunity to harvest does here in unit B, but again if TWRA biologists feel it would negatively affect the heard as a whole I have no problem with it.


I'm with you there. I just hope TWRA is keeping a close eye on Unit B. What you're suggesting would definitely help take the bullseye of the back of anything "antlered" that walks through the woods with a lot of folks I know.


I thought this past season they changed the # of does that can be killed in archery from 2 to 4? If so then I think we are already seeing some changes in Unit B.

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#3162915 - 02/13/13 06:45 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: landman]
WRbowhunter
8 Point


Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1669
Loc: collierville,tn

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 Originally Posted By: landman
Heard they were going to 2 Bucks this year
cool.I hope you mean 2 bucks per day.this one buck a day is for the birds.sometime 2 spikes come in together
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"Vegetarians are cool. All I eat are vegetarians"-Ted Nugent

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#3162956 - 02/13/13 07:16 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Hollar Hunter]
timberjack86
14 Point


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 8269
Loc: Grundy county

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 Originally Posted By: Hollar Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Beardendy88
Why do some want a 2 buck limit? The only difference it will make is on wma's because many of those who own land and hunt (not all) will shot as many as they want. I personally only normally kill 2 a year and rarely kill a third but it's nice to have that in my pocket during late season.


Exactly people who will shoot 2 off the top because they've a 3rd tag would stop them from shooting that 2nd immature buck....
Whats it matter? Its my land not yours.
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#3163067 - 02/13/13 08:15 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: timberjack86]
landman
10 Point


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2746
Loc: TN & Western KY

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I Glad I just said thanks what I heard

Lordly don't I haven't killed 3 bucks since you could kill 9 or 10


But, do watch...Feeders will be like crossbows one day....

I have have nothing against crossbows and there's enough feeders
out there anyway...
_________________________
"BUY LAND. THEY AIN'T MAKING ANY MORE OF THE STUFF"
- Will Rogers

http://www.JimmySettleLand.com

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#3163071 - 02/13/13 08:19 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: timberjack86]
landman
10 Point


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2746
Loc: TN & Western KY

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I Glad I just said thanks what I heard

Lordly don't I haven't killed 3 bucks since you could kill 9 or 10


But, do watch...Feeders will be like crossbows one day....

I have have nothing against crossbows and there's enough feeders
out there anyway...
_________________________
"BUY LAND. THEY AIN'T MAKING ANY MORE OF THE STUFF"
- Will Rogers

http://www.JimmySettleLand.com

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#3163226 - 02/13/13 09:41 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: stik]
Hollar Hunter
8 Point


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2296
Loc: TN

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 Originally Posted By: stik
 Originally Posted By: Hollar Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Bone Collector
Wow, I heard they were going to 4 buck. Well one of us will be right, or we'll both be wrong.


That would be just stupid

stupid?? wow. how so?

i hope they leave it alone. 3 is perfect.



Stupid was a harsh word but what sense would it make to go up to 4? I'm ok with 3 but would prefer 2. At least in unit L where we have so many does to kill I just don't see the need to kill 3 or 4 bucks...
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Spend your time where you get the most return on it...

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#3163240 - 02/13/13 09:51 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Bone Collector]
Hollar Hunter
8 Point


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2296
Loc: TN

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 Originally Posted By: Bone Collector
 Originally Posted By: Hollar Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Beardendy88
Why do some want a 2 buck limit? The only difference it will make is on wma's because many of those who own land and hunt (not all) will shot as many as they want. I personally only normally kill 2 a year and rarely kill a third but it's nice to have that in my pocket during late season.


Exactly people who will shoot 2 off the top because they've a 3rd tag would stop them from shooting that 2nd immature buck....


That is completely speculative. People who shoot "immature" bucks do so because they want to and because they don;t care about antlers and just want the meat. They also know you get as much meat off a 1.5 yr old buck as a 3 yr old doe and it doesn't taste any worse.

If they pass and wait for a doe, that opportunity may not come, but this one is here right now, so it pays to take the deer and not take the risk of not seeing a doe. Keep in mind not everyone has high deer densities where they hunt, even in Mid TN.

The guys like you that care about horns won't shoot the first immature buck so it comes down to choice and they should have that choice whether you agree or not.

I hunted Rutherford and Wilson counties this year. I saw lots of spikes and small bucks. I think I saw 10 does total from the stand from the bow opener to the last day. those 10 were seen on 3 separate sits in groups of 3, 4, and 3.


I can see your side of it and I've been blessed to hunt unit L all my life. I also know plenty of folks that will bust a forkhorn cause it has horns and they can brag and say i killed three bucks. So maybe it's something that should be different for each unit. I just don't see how there can be so many more young bucks to kill and not the same amount of does available. I don't just hunt for horns. I kill and eat plenty of does but I do enjoy the cat and mouse game of killing an old smart buck.
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Spend your time where you get the most return on it...

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#3163254 - 02/13/13 10:06 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
Hollar Hunter
8 Point


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2296
Loc: TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Bone Collector
 Originally Posted By: Hollar Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Beardendy88
Why do some want a 2 buck limit? The only difference it will make is on wma's because many of those who own land and hunt (not all) will shot as many as they want. I personally only normally kill 2 a year and rarely kill a third but it's nice to have that in my pocket during late season.


Exactly people who will shoot 2 off the top because they've a 3rd tag would stop them from shooting that 2nd immature buck....


That is completely speculative. People who shoot "immature" bucks do so because they want to...


Exactly. And what is also speculative and NOT backed up by data is the idea that if we kill less yearlings, we will then kill more older bucks in following years. When TN went from an 11 buck limit down to a 2 buck limit in 1998, we experienced a HUGE decline in yearling bucks killed that year. As the theory goes, hunters should have then killed many more 2 1/2 year-old bucks the following year (1999). But that didn't happen at all. In fact, there was barely even a blip in increase in 2 1/2 year-old bucks killed the next year. In fact, ever since the decline in buck limit in 1998, hunters have been killing far fewer yearling bucks than they used to. Yet older buck harvests have just slowly increased over time, staying on the slow rate of increase that started long before the reduction in buck limit.



Well it's certainly daylight and dark difference from back than. If you killed a buck with 8 points in the 90's that was a giant. There's obviously more big bucks now than ever in TN but that don't make them dumber. A mature buck will always be hard to kill regardless of the population but at least there is a realistic chance at the opportunity of one these days. If the numbers show they've hardly increased over the years of mature buck killings what to you attribute the higher numbers of big bucks running around these days to?
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Spend your time where you get the most return on it...

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#3163260 - 02/13/13 10:12 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Hollar Hunter]
nate17
8 Point


Registered: 08/06/09
Posts: 1246
Loc: Missouri

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HH... ur trying to hard man. you know theres no need in talking bag limits on here lol
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#3163264 - 02/13/13 10:15 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: timberjack86]
Hollar Hunter
8 Point


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2296
Loc: TN

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 Originally Posted By: timberjack86
 Originally Posted By: Hollar Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Beardendy88
Why do some want a 2 buck limit? The only difference it will make is on wma's because many of those who own land and hunt (not all) will shot as many as they want. I personally only normally kill 2 a year and rarely kill a third but it's nice to have that in my pocket during late season.


Exactly people who will shoot 2 off the top because they've a 3rd tag would stop them from shooting that 2nd immature buck....
Whats it matter? Its my land not yours.


You have a right to kill what you want within the law on your land .
But the deer are not yours they travel off your land so your killing affects others is my point.
_________________________

Spend your time where you get the most return on it...

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#3163272 - 02/13/13 10:22 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: nate17]
Hollar Hunter
8 Point


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2296
Loc: TN

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 Originally Posted By: nate17
HH... ur trying to hard man. you know theres no need in talking bag limits on here lol



LOL
I know I just wanted to clarify myself. I've seen how much better its got over the last 15 years and I'm always striving to make things better. I won't comment on these topics ever again as this one was a first. I've got my own personal herd I get to manage and have seen the results i can acheive first hand so ill just stick to my piece of paradise....
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Spend your time where you get the most return on it...

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#3163311 - 02/13/13 11:05 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Hollar Hunter]
deerhunter10
10 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 3542
Loc: maury county tn

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 Originally Posted By: Hollar Hunter
 Originally Posted By: nate17
HH... ur trying to hard man. you know theres no need in talking bag limits on here lol



LOL
I know I just wanted to clarify myself. I've seen how much better its got over the last 15 years and I'm always striving to make things better. I won't comment on these topics ever again as this one was a first. I've got my own personal herd I get to manage and have seen the results i can acheive first hand so ill just stick to my piece of paradise....


I see your point completely. I don't but I do understand why people want a 3 buck limit and want to kill immature deer. while I would love for everyone to manage like we do that's just not realistic. I can understand why people kill them for meat, and some people are just extremely happy to kill a buck no matter how big or small. im like you we manage very strict, but if someone wants to kill 3 immauture deer right next to us well by all means go for it. I still don't think that going to 2 buck limit is going to change that much but I mean we will never know unless it changes. while I am young I can still see how much hunting has changed just in the past 5 years. but talking to my dad, paw paw, and uncle its crazy the change in just the 15 years. so I think that the twra has the best interest in the herd and in the hunters in setting the dates and the bag limit. I think the vast majority of the hunters are happy with the way the things are going.


Edited by deerhunter10 (02/13/13 11:06 PM)
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#3163724 - 02/14/13 10:08 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: deerhunter10]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 3522
Loc: Franklin County

Offline
What's this 11 buck limit that I see mentioned here now and then? I started deer hunting in the late 1970's and I don't recall that. Unless you are counting all the bucks you could kill if you hunted WMA's all over the state?? Maybe that's it? I don't recall ever having a statewide 11 buck limit othewise.
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#3163806 - 02/14/13 11:15 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Hunter 257W]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 18623
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

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Archery, muzzleloader, and gun seasons total kill limits were 11 bucks/year prior to the reduction in the limits. I was glad to see the reduction myself. I think then and particularly now, that some people kill what the limit allows not neccessarily because they want them but because they can. There are many that don't take the limit now and I attribute our present buck numbers to them and the reduction in the former 11 limit. I like seeing bucks while hunting and the more that walk from one year to the next the greater the opportunity of connecting with some of those that fall into my catagory of shooters.

I would be just as happy with a 2 buck limit but am satisfied with our current 3 buck limit.
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#3163996 - 02/14/13 02:22 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Mike Belt]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 3522
Loc: Franklin County

Offline
Guess I need to start taking those Ginkgo Biloba pills more regularly because I just don't recall it ever being that high. \:\)

Yeah, 11 bucks is crazy. A lot of hunters want to say they "limited" out I guess. I like venison - but not that much. If I had to eat 11 deer in a year, I'd be crying for a ribeye by the end of the year! Based on the small number who actually shoot 3 bucks now though, I wonder how many shot significanlty more than 3 back then? I'd guess there weren't that many. IF the one who did try to shoot 11 was your neighbor though, it would have a real impact.

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#3164009 - 02/14/13 02:37 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Hunter 257W]
BigD_625
10 Point


Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 3395
Loc: Maury County, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
Guess I need to start taking those Ginkgo Biloba pills more regularly because I just don't recall it ever being that high. \:\)

Yeah, 11 bucks is crazy. A lot of hunters want to say they "limited" out I guess. I like venison - but not that much. If I had to eat 11 deer in a year, I'd be crying for a ribeye by the end of the year! Based on the small number who actually shoot 3 bucks now though, I wonder how many shot significanlty more than 3 back then? I'd guess there weren't that many. IF the one who did try to shoot 11 was your neighbor though, it would have a real impact.


The buck limit in Wayne County was 19 not counting quota hunts for most of my hunting years when I was a kid. 4 bow, 4 rifle, 3 muzzleloader, and 8 Eagle Creek nonquota (2 day) hunts with 1 buck each. I've known folks that have come close to the 19 buck limit, but they basically had a waiting list of families wanting deer meat.
_________________________
-----------
It's better to be smarter than you look...than to look smarter than you are.

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#3165815 - 02/16/13 07:17 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: landman]
Frank G
8 Point


Registered: 12/20/12
Posts: 1409
Loc: Hardin Co, TN Pickwick Lake

Offline
 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
Give one sound biological reason for a lower buck limit. How will it improve the health of the heard?



Health of the herd?

So If the herd is better this way why are we seeing more out breaks
of EHD in TN, this was 2 out of the last 5.

But do you thing the State of TN Deer are in better health than 10-15 years ago?

I don't care if they go to 1 or better yet, earn a buck tag, kill
a doe before you can kill every buck, sounds good to me

Landman,
I’m with you on the “earn” a buck comment. I have been a proponent of this for a long time now. Unit “L” is covered up with doe. Leave the 3-buck limit alone. If it was up to me ……. Take TWO doe for a second buck tag.
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#3165842 - 02/16/13 07:41 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Frank G]
Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point


Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 12232
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Frank G
 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
Give one sound biological reason for a lower buck limit. How will it improve the health of the heard?



Health of the herd?

So If the herd is better this way why are we seeing more out breaks
of EHD in TN, this was 2 out of the last 5.

But do you thing the State of TN Deer are in better health than 10-15 years ago?

I don't care if they go to 1 or better yet, earn a buck tag, kill
a doe before you can kill every buck, sounds good to me

Landman,
I’m with you on the “earn” a buck comment. I have been a proponent of this for a long time now. Unit “L” is covered up with doe. Leave the 3-buck limit alone. If it was up to me ……. Take TWO doe for a second buck tag.
What would keep people from using the internet to check in doe that don't exist to get another buck tag?
_________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)




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#3165852 - 02/16/13 07:51 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Beekeeper]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

Offline
Seems to me the only people who want a 2 buck limit are the people who are mad because they aren't shooting enough big bucks now and think that will mean if everyone else can kill less, they have a better chance.


What other reason are you people coming up with than that?
_________________________
~DRM~

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#3165864 - 02/16/13 08:00 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Beekeeper]
Frank G
8 Point


Registered: 12/20/12
Posts: 1409
Loc: Hardin Co, TN Pickwick Lake

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Beekeeper
 Originally Posted By: Frank G
 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
Give one sound biological reason for a lower buck limit. How will it improve the health of the heard?



Health of the herd?

So If the herd is better this way why are we seeing more out breaks
of EHD in TN, this was 2 out of the last 5.

But do you thing the State of TN Deer are in better health than 10-15 years ago?

I don't care if they go to 1 or better yet, earn a buck tag, kill
a doe before you can kill every buck, sounds good to me

Landman,
I’m with you on the “earn” a buck comment. I have been a proponent of this for a long time now. Unit “L” is covered up with doe. Leave the 3-buck limit alone. If it was up to me ……. Take TWO doe for a second buck tag.
What would keep people from using the internet to check in doe that don't exist to get another buck tag?

Beekeeper,
You do have a point there. Sure it would no doubt happen, probably by the same few that “poach”. For the most part the vast majority would comply.
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#3165890 - 02/16/13 08:22 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Frank G]
ImThere
10 Point


Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 3180
Loc: Lewisburg, Tn

Offline
I say leave well enough alone but with that said.......

Lets call a buck a buck if its got balls its a buck!

I shot 4 bucks last year one with 2" antlers and a button among them i thought they were does at the time but i think they should have counted and one antlered buck would have made it anoyher season
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#3165898 - 02/16/13 08:26 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: -DRM-]
Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point


Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 12232
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
Seems to me the only people who want a 2 buck limit are the people who are mad because they aren't shooting enough big bucks now and think that will mean if everyone else can kill less, they have a better chance.


What other reason are you people coming up with than that?
I agree. They think more deer will make up for their lack of skill.
_________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)




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#3165906 - 02/16/13 08:30 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Frank G]
Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point


Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 12232
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Frank G
 Originally Posted By: Beekeeper
 Originally Posted By: Frank G
 Originally Posted By: landman
 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
Give one sound biological reason for a lower buck limit. How will it improve the health of the heard?



Health of the herd?

So If the herd is better this way why are we seeing more out breaks
of EHD in TN, this was 2 out of the last 5.

But do you thing the State of TN Deer are in better health than 10-15 years ago?

I don't care if they go to 1 or better yet, earn a buck tag, kill
a doe before you can kill every buck, sounds good to me

Landman,
I’m with you on the “earn” a buck comment. I have been a proponent of this for a long time now. Unit “L” is covered up with doe. Leave the 3-buck limit alone. If it was up to me ……. Take TWO doe for a second buck tag.
What would keep people from using the internet to check in doe that don't exist to get another buck tag?

Beekeeper,
You do have a point there. Sure it would no doubt happen, probably by the same few that “poach”. For the most part the vast majority would comply.
I believe it would turn otherwise legal hunters into poachers much like some gun laws turn otherwise legal gun owners into law breakers.
_________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)




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#3165909 - 02/16/13 08:31 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: ImThere]
Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point


Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 12232
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: ImThere
I say leave well enough alone but with that said.......

Lets call a buck a buck if its got balls its a buck!

I shot 4 bucks last year one with 2" antlers and a button among them i thought they were does at the time but i think they should have counted and one antlered buck would have made it another season
You could have stopped at three. Why didn't you?
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#3165913 - 02/16/13 08:35 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Beekeeper]
Frank G
8 Point


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Same thought here BeeKeeper.
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#3165950 - 02/16/13 09:13 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Frank G]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: Frank G

Landman,
I’m with you on the “earn” a buck comment. I have been a proponent of this for a long time now. Unit “L” is covered up with doe. Leave the 3-buck limit alone. If it was up to me ……. Take TWO doe for a second buck tag.


Frank G,

I think your comments about Unit L are not accurate when considering the huge area that Unit L covers. Now without question there are probably pockets in Unit L that are "covered up with does." But there are probably far more areas of Unit L where the ratio of males to females is well balanced. In addition, pockets of Unit L exist where deer density is low. However, the state can't manage at a localized pocket level, so they have to provide "rules" that will allow for the problems of unique situations to be adressed. Liberal doe limits can fix the problems of those areas with too many does (if hunters will take advantage of those limits). In areas of low deer density, hunters don't have to shoot any does. It is up to the hunters, not the state, to make sound management decisions. The state simply makes the rules, but we hunters are the true managers of the resource, as we are the ones pulling the trigger or deciding not to pulling the trigger.

The last time I checked, the female versus male harvest ratio in most of Unit L was perfectly adequate to maintain biologically sound adult sex ratios. Most of the area averages a harvest of around 45% female and 55% male. Again, this is biologically adequate.

I have seen what "Earn-A-Buck" (EAB) harvest rules produce when they are not needed--a rapid decimation of the deer population. EAB harvest rules should only be implemented in the most extreme situations of deer over-population, and I don't know of anywhere in TN where that is the case.
_________________________
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#3165997 - 02/16/13 09:39 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: landman]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: landman
But, do watch...Feeders will be like crossbows one day....

I have have nothing against crossbows and there's enough feeders
out there anyway...


Honestly, I think it will go the opposite direction. I think feeders will eventually be outlawed. Too much data exists showing just how potentially dangerous the artificial feeding of wildlife can be.
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#3166007 - 02/16/13 09:46 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
-DRM-
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Registered: 08/21/12
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
[quote=Frank G]
I think your comments about Unit L are not accurate when considering the huge area that Unit L covers. Now without question there are probably pockets in Unit L that are "covered up with does." But there are probably far more areas of Unit L where the ratio of males to females is well balanced. In addition, pockets of Unit L exist where deer density is low. However, the state can't manage at a localized pocket level, so they have to provide "rules" that will allow for the problems of unique situations to be adressed. Liberal doe limits can fix the problems of those areas with too many does (if hunters will take advantage of those limits). In areas of low deer density, hunters don't have to shoot any does. It is up to the hunters, not the state, to make sound management decisions. The state simply makes the rules, but we hunters are the true managers of the resource, as we are the ones pulling the trigger or deciding not to pulling the trigger.

The last time I checked, the female versus male harvest ratio in most of Unit L was perfectly adequate to maintain biologically sound adult sex ratios. Most of the area averages a harvest of around 45% female and 55% male. Again, this is biologically adequate.


I hunt Williamson, Maury, Marshall, and Giles. I see a lot of deer, but I also see a lot of button bucks mixed in with what many would assume are "a bunch of does" at casual observation.

 Quote:
I have seen what "Earn-A-Buck" (EAB) harvest rules produce when they are not needed--a rapid decimation of the deer population. EAB harvest rules should only be implemented in the most extreme situations of deer over-population, and I don't know of anywhere in TN where that is the case.


All I see it doing is taking the guy who is perfectly happy killing his 2-3 bucks per year, and forcing them to kill a matching 2-3 does that he doesn't even want to shoot. Seems like a poor plan.
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#3166013 - 02/16/13 09:49 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Hollar Hunter]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: Hollar Hunter
 Originally Posted By: BSK
And what is also speculative and NOT backed up by data is the idea that if we kill less yearlings, we will then kill more older bucks in following years. When TN went from an 11 buck limit down to a 2 buck limit in 1998, we experienced a HUGE decline in yearling bucks killed that year. As the theory goes, hunters should have then killed many more 2 1/2 year-old bucks the following year (1999). But that didn't happen at all. In fact, there was barely even a blip in increase in 2 1/2 year-old bucks killed the next year. In fact, ever since the decline in buck limit in 1998, hunters have been killing far fewer yearling bucks than they used to. Yet older buck harvests have just slowly increased over time, staying on the slow rate of increase that started long before the reduction in buck limit.



Well it's certainly daylight and dark difference from back than. If you killed a buck with 8 points in the 90's that was a giant. There's obviously more big bucks now than ever in TN but that don't make them dumber. A mature buck will always be hard to kill regardless of the population but at least there is a realistic chance at the opportunity of one these days. If the numbers show they've hardly increased over the years of mature buck killings what to you attribute the higher numbers of big bucks running around these days to?


Don't get me wrong Hollar Hunter. The buck age structure has improved dramatically in TN over the last 15 years. However, my point is that state regulations did not produce this. Changing hunter attitudes and desires did. The growing number of hunters that voluntarily pass up young bucks, as well as hunters' lack of desire to kill more bucks than they currently do is the driving force in this buck age structure improvement. You do realize they only a tiny fraction of hunters kill their limit of 3 bucks? If I remember correctly, it is only a couple of percent of all hunters. Basically, our current buck limit is limiting only a few hunters from harvesting the bucks they want to kill.

There are several ways to "advance" the buck age structure, and one of those ways is to kill less total males than are produced as button bucks each year. And that is exactly what TN hunters have been doing for quite a few years. Our buck harvest totals have stagnated around 80,000 bucks each year statewide. Yet more than 80,000 males are born each year. When you kill less bucks than are produced, more males live another year longer and the age structure advances, and the buck population grows.
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#3166021 - 02/16/13 09:58 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: -DRM-]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
 Originally Posted By: BSK
I have seen what "Earn-A-Buck" (EAB) harvest rules produce when they are not needed--a rapid decimation of the deer population. EAB harvest rules should only be implemented in the most extreme situations of deer over-population, and I don't know of anywhere in TN where that is the case.


All I see it doing is taking the guy who is perfectly happy killing his 2-3 bucks per year, and forcing them to kill a matching 2-3 does that he doesn't even want to shoot. Seems like a poor plan.


-DRM-,

What actually happens is many hunters kill a doe so they can kill a buck, but never end up killing a buck. Hence you end up with a harvest heavily skewed towards females. If the adult sex ratio is already well balanced (and all available data suggest Unit L as a whole has exceptionally balanced sex ratios), you end up decimating the female segment of the population (the fawn producers), and over-all population rapidly declines. In fact, that is the point of EAB rules--they were designed for addressing areas of the country with major deer over-population problems. I don't believe any widespread area of Unit L is currently suffering from serious deer over-population.
_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3166023 - 02/16/13 10:00 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
Frank G
8 Point


Registered: 12/20/12
Posts: 1409
Loc: Hardin Co, TN Pickwick Lake

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Frank G

Landman,
I’m with you on the “earn” a buck comment. I have been a proponent of this for a long time now. Unit “L” is covered up with doe. Leave the 3-buck limit alone. If it was up to me ……. Take TWO doe for a second buck tag.


Frank G,
Thanks for the update BSK,
For the most part I hunt the southern counties of unit L so your follow up to my “earn a buck” thoughts have changed my views. Was not aware that for the most part the unit is biologically in balance. Granted the state can’t manage “pocket” areas. We take a number of doe at our club; donate to hunt for hungry and friends that don’t/can’t hunt etc. Although not written, verbally we agree “6” or less let him pass. Thanks for the local biology lesson.


I think your comments about Unit L are not accurate when considering the huge area that Unit L covers. Now without question there are probably pockets in Unit L that are "covered up with does." But there are probably far more areas of Unit L where the ratio of males to females is well balanced. In addition, pockets of Unit L exist where deer density is low. However, the state can't manage at a localized pocket level, so they have to provide "rules" that will allow for the problems of unique situations to be adressed. Liberal doe limits can fix the problems of those areas with too many does (if hunters will take advantage of those limits). In areas of low deer density, hunters don't have to shoot any does. It is up to the hunters, not the state, to make sound management decisions. The state simply makes the rules, but we hunters are the true managers of the resource, as we are the ones pulling the trigger or deciding not to pulling the trigger.

The last time I checked, the female versus male harvest ratio in most of Unit L was perfectly adequate to maintain biologically sound adult sex ratios. Most of the area averages a harvest of around 45% female and 55% male. Again, this is biologically adequate.

I have seen what "Earn-A-Buck" (EAB) harvest rules produce when they are not needed--a rapid decimation of the deer population. EAB harvest rules should only be implemented in the most extreme situations of deer over-population, and I don't know of anywhere in TN where that is the case.
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#3166028 - 02/16/13 10:08 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Frank G]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
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BSK in regards to the earn a buck idea. I know a lot of people that hunt unit L won't kil a doe period but think nothing of shooting 3 bucks. IN your opinon keeping overall herd health in mind. What if the 1st or even 2nd buck did not have to be earned ?? But if you want to shoot a 3rd buck he needs to be earned by shooting a doe or 2 ?? Seems like a fair compromise between the 2 extremes we see so much of on TnDeer and in the General public.
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#3166044 - 02/16/13 10:16 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
Diehard Hunter
CRAMP
12 Point


Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 6980
Loc: East Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: WestTn Huntin'man
BSK in regards to the earn a buck idea. I know a lot of people that hunt unit L won't kil a doe period but think nothing of shooting 3 bucks. IN your opinon keeping overall herd health in mind. What if the 1st or even 2nd buck did not have to be earned ?? But if you want to shoot a 3rd buck he needs to be earned by shooting a doe or 2 ?? Seems like a fair compromise between the 2 extremes we see so much of on TnDeer and in the General public.


What would stop them from checking in a phantom doe online then hitting the woods for that third buck?
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#3166047 - 02/16/13 10:16 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
Frank G
8 Point


Registered: 12/20/12
Posts: 1409
Loc: Hardin Co, TN Pickwick Lake

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 Originally Posted By: WestTn Huntin'man
BSK in regards to the earn a buck idea. I know a lot of people that hunt unit L won't kil a doe period but think nothing of shooting 3 bucks. IN your opinon keeping overall herd health in mind. What if the 1st or even 2nd buck did not have to be earned ?? But if you want to shoot a 3rd buck he needs to be earned by shooting a doe or 2 ?? Seems like a fair compromise between the 2 extremes we see so much of on TnDeer and in the General public.


West TN,
Sounds a reasonable compromise to me. I know a number here that “I won’t shoot a doe” and in the next breath “all I see are doe”.
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#3166053 - 02/16/13 10:26 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
bbuck14
8 Point


Registered: 01/01/13
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Mike Belt I agree with your coments completly. I believe the reason more people are killing big deer themselves is because of the 3 buck limit and the people that are dedicated to shooting big deer only. Some would be amazed what they would actually see if they didn't shoot the first legal buck that walked by. I remember the 11 buck limit myself and we would still kill an occassional big deer but they come alot more frequent now thanks to the 3 buck limit. I would be fine with 2 or less. With that being said I look at it as kids coming up playing sports. Thats why they have travel ball and thats why they have rec league.
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#3166054 - 02/16/13 10:27 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Beekeeper]
ImThere
10 Point


Registered: 08/24/06
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 Originally Posted By: Beekeeper
 Originally Posted By: ImThere
I say leave well enough alone but with that said.......

Lets call a buck a buck if its got balls its a buck!

I shot 4 bucks last year one with 2" antlers and a button among them i thought they were does at the time but i think they should have counted and one antlered buck would have made it another season
You could have stopped at three. Why didn't you?

I did or i thought i did button got me thanks though for pointing that out
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#3166100 - 02/16/13 11:08 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: ImThere]
Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
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Registered: 08/26/09
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 Originally Posted By: ImThere
 Originally Posted By: Beekeeper
 Originally Posted By: ImThere
I say leave well enough alone but with that said.......

Lets call a buck a buck if its got balls its a buck!

I shot 4 bucks last year one with 2" antlers and a button among them i thought they were does at the time but i think they should have counted and one antlered buck would have made it another season
You could have stopped at three. Why didn't you?

I did or i thought i did button got me thanks though for pointing that out
Should you have faced a fine because you shot a "doe" that turned out to be a "button buck"?
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#3166111 - 02/16/13 11:13 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Diehard Hunter]
scn
16 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 10449
Loc: Brentwood, TN US

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 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
 Originally Posted By: WestTn Huntin'man
BSK in regards to the earn a buck idea. I know a lot of people that hunt unit L won't kil a doe period but think nothing of shooting 3 bucks. IN your opinon keeping overall herd health in mind. What if the 1st or even 2nd buck did not have to be earned ?? But if you want to shoot a 3rd buck he needs to be earned by shooting a doe or 2 ?? Seems like a fair compromise between the 2 extremes we see so much of on TnDeer and in the General public.


What would stop them from checking in a phantom doe online then hitting the woods for that third buck?


Under TWRA's current system of check-in, an a earn a buck system would be totally unenforceable. When you add the fact that it is not needed as BSK has pointed out, it has little chance of being recommended by TWRA with the current herd dynamics.


Edited by scn (02/16/13 11:19 AM)
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#3166206 - 02/16/13 01:02 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: WestTn Huntin'man
BSK in regards to the earn a buck idea. I know a lot of people that hunt unit L won't kil a doe period but think nothing of shooting 3 bucks.


WestTn Huntin'man,

"A lot of people" is a relative term. This idea may be because of the hunters who you associate with (very avid hunters). Again, VERY few hunters actually kill 3 bucks in a given year (just a couple of percent), and the majority of hunters in TN kill no bucks at all in a given year (60-65%). The hunters who don't kill does, but kill a couple of bucks, are then offset by the hunters like DA and few others who kill 15-20 does in a given year.


 Quote:
IN your opinon keeping overall herd health in mind. What if the 1st or even 2nd buck did not have to be earned ?? But if you want to shoot a 3rd buck he needs to be earned by shooting a doe or 2 ?? Seems like a fair compromise between the 2 extremes we see so much of on TnDeer and in the General public.


If this system were biologically necessary (so many hunters refusing to kill does that the adult sex ratio was suffering and deer populations were too high), I would be all for it. However, the best data available does not indicate this is the case. Most of the thermal imaging work the TWRA conducted a few years ago strongly suggested adult sex ratios of 1.4 to 1.7 adult does per adult buck (perfecly biologically adequate), and I've seen no indications of deer overpopulation in the areas of Unit L I have worked in (nor from the biological data collected statewide). Now that was not always true. I was becoming very worried about deer densities in parts of Unit L in '05 and '06, but the '07 EHD outbreak took care of those worries.
_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3166211 - 02/16/13 01:07 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Beekeeper]
ImThere
10 Point


Registered: 08/24/06
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 Originally Posted By: Beekeeper
 Originally Posted By: ImThere
 Originally Posted By: Beekeeper
 Originally Posted By: ImThere
I say leave well enough alone but with that said.......

Lets call a buck a buck if its got balls its a buck!

I shot 4 bucks last year one with 2" antlers and a button among them i thought they were does at the time but i think they should have counted and one antlered buck would have made it another season
You could have stopped at three. Why didn't you?

I did or i thought i did button got me thanks though for pointing that out
Should you have faced a fine because you shot a "doe" that turned out to be a "button buck"?

Probably but im glad i didnt \:\)
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#3166213 - 02/16/13 01:08 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Diehard Hunter]
WestTn Huntin'man
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Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12099
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 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
 Originally Posted By: WestTn Huntin'man
BSK in regards to the earn a buck idea. I know a lot of people that hunt unit L won't kil a doe period but think nothing of shooting 3 bucks. IN your opinon keeping overall herd health in mind. What if the 1st or even 2nd buck did not have to be earned ?? But if you want to shoot a 3rd buck he needs to be earned by shooting a doe or 2 ?? Seems like a fair compromise between the 2 extremes we see so much of on TnDeer and in the General public.


What would stop them from checking in a phantom doe online then hitting the woods for that third buck?

IMO
Most Hunters are honest and try to follow the rules and regs. The ones that are not honest are going to do what they want irregardless of the regs. The recent arrests at Ft Campbell are a good example of this.
I see compromise as a give and take type deal. A lot of hunters don't want to shoot anything unless it's a 3.5 year old 8pt or better.Some are if it's brown it's meat and it's down.Hunters fighting each other will always hurt hunting more than the anti's.We all need to be more open minded and work together.
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#3166226 - 02/16/13 01:24 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: bbuck14]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: bbuck14
Mike Belt I agree with your coments completly. I believe the reason more people are killing big deer themselves is because of the 3 buck limit and the people that are dedicated to shooting big deer only. Some would be amazed what they would actually see if they didn't shoot the first legal buck that walked by. I remember the 11 buck limit myself and we would still kill an occassional big deer but they come alot more frequent now thanks to the 3 buck limit. I would be fine with 2 or less.


I completely agree that the reason we are killing more big bucks is because there are more older bucks in the woods. But I strongly believe (and have the data to back up the idea) that is wasn't the 2 and then 3 buck limit that has caused this improvement in the number of older bucks. It is a combination of hunters voluntarily passing up young bucks and the PERCEPTION of the low buck limit working.

Hunters started to notice more older bucks in the population about the time the buck limit was lowered, hence they believed, and still believe, it was the lower limit that produced these older bucks. Yet the data is quite clear that this improvement in buck age structure actually started several years before the limit was lowered and continued after the limit was lowered with no improvements due specifically to the lower limit. In essence, the buck age structure was already getting better before the limit was lowered and would have continued improving without the lower limit.

But that said, i do give credit for this perception that the lower limits were working in convincing more hunters to voluntarily pass young bucks. In the early years of preaching QDM to hunters, the most common reason for hunters to not participate was their belief that it would never work. That every young buck they passed up would just be shot by a neighbor. Yet once the lower limit gave these hunters confidence that some of these passed young bucks would live another year, they believed passing young bucks was worth the effort. Basically, the lower limit became a self-fulfilling prophecy--it gave hunters the courage to pass young bucks which DID produce more older bucks, therefore, in a round about way, it did help increase buck age structure. But to say the limit itself--by forcing hunters not to kill too many bucks--caused the older buck age structure we now have would not be accurate. The 3 buck limit limits very few hunters from killing what they want to kill. Again, VERY few hunters kill 3 bucks per year, and the majority kill zero bucks per year.
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#3166235 - 02/16/13 01:30 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: ImThere]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: ImThere
 Originally Posted By: Beekeeper
 Originally Posted By: ImThere
 Originally Posted By: Beekeeper
 Originally Posted By: ImThere
I say leave well enough alone but with that said.......

Lets call a buck a buck if its got balls its a buck!

I shot 4 bucks last year one with 2" antlers and a button among them i thought they were does at the time but i think they should have counted and one antlered buck would have made it another season
You could have stopped at three. Why didn't you?

I did or i thought i did button got me thanks though for pointing that out
Should you have faced a fine because you shot a "doe" that turned out to be a "button buck"?

Probably but im glad i didnt \:\)


And that's why those rules are in place ImThere. To prevent turning honest hunters who make an honest mistake into criminals. Any hunter who swears it is easy to tell the difference between a 2" spike or a button buck from a doe at long distance hasn't shot many does. I've worked on deer reduction programs where trained biologists and marksmen were employed to kill hundreds of does from over-populated herds. Yet even trained biologists made mistakes from time to time. I've done it myself. But as long as only a small percentage of "anterless" kills turn out to be young males (10-15%), no harm done. And most Unit L counties have antlerless harvests that fall within those guidelines (10-15% of antlerless kills are either sub-legal yearling bucks or button bucks).
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#3166241 - 02/16/13 01:36 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK

-DRM-,

What actually happens is many hunters kill a doe so they can kill a buck, but never end up killing a buck.


:duh: Can't believe I stopped my train of thought and didn't see where the next logical station was! Makes perfect sense.
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#3166242 - 02/16/13 01:36 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Frank G]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: Frank G
 Originally Posted By: WestTn Huntin'man
BSK in regards to the earn a buck idea. I know a lot of people that hunt unit L won't kil a doe period but think nothing of shooting 3 bucks. IN your opinon keeping overall herd health in mind. What if the 1st or even 2nd buck did not have to be earned ?? But if you want to shoot a 3rd buck he needs to be earned by shooting a doe or 2 ?? Seems like a fair compromise between the 2 extremes we see so much of on TnDeer and in the General public.


West TN,
Sounds a reasonable compromise to me. I know a number here that “I won’t shoot a doe” and in the next breath “all I see are doe”.


I honestly do understand and feel for those hunters who hunt in pockets where doe numbers are a concern. But just remember that what you personally experience on your hunting property may be very different than what other hunters experience a mile or two down the road.

Deer do not "spread out" equally across the landscape, and at times, deer display some sexual segregation (more females in one area and more males in another). To force doe kills may help those areas with an overabundance of does, but it would be absolutely disasterous for those who are trying to increase their deer density or who actually have more bucks than does.

As I've said many times, I prefer to educate hunters on proper management, and why a well-managed herd is a more fun herd to hunt, than trying to "force" good management through regulation. In addition, deer herd conditions are not the same everywhere, let alone even on adjoining properties. What is good from Property A might be disasterous from neighboring Property B. I prefer to see educated hunters make wise management decisions based on their local needs.
_________________________
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#3166941 - 02/17/13 07:04 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: timberjack86]
jar
4 Point


Registered: 08/06/12
Posts: 328
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Timberjacked, you get a gold star for having the only farm in TN whose hunting practices does not effect your neighbors. You have posted that same comment a few times its almost like you have a high fence on your place, that would be the only way you would not effect your neighbors. No its not their business but you do effect them.
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#3166947 - 02/17/13 07:12 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: jar]
Barnes Ridge Rambler
6 Point


Registered: 12/16/11
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Loc: Tennessee

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I would be happy with a 1 buck a year limit. Just look at Kentucky. They had over 60 Boone & Crocket entries last year!!!! And dont try telling me that its all in the crops and the soil. If you drive 10 mins across the state line the bucks get bigger. Why? Age!!!!
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#3166988 - 02/17/13 08:21 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Barnes Ridge Rambler]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2835
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

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Climb Higher, don't get me wrong I let the young bucks walk and have for a long time. However, between my neighbor and I we survey (w/game cams) roughly 700 acres and I can tell you in my area the vast, vast majority of bucks will never be Boone and Crockett no matter how long they live. If he's not mature I'm not shooting him that's just me. I killed a mature 8 pointer this year but I can almost guarantee you he would never have been Boone and Crockett.
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#3166999 - 02/17/13 08:36 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BlountArrow]
Barnes Ridge Rambler
6 Point


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Youre exactly right. I guess thats the point i was trying to make. Kill mature deer. We'll never know their true potential until they have time to mature.
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#3167003 - 02/17/13 08:42 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Barnes Ridge Rambler]
cecil30-30
16 Point


Registered: 12/05/06
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Loc: Morgan Co

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 Originally Posted By: climb_higher
Youre exactly right. I guess thats the point i was trying to make. Kill mature deer. We'll never know their true potential until they have time to mature.
Penty and plenty of mature deer hit the dirt in TN each year, and alot of them are not boone and crocket..Maybe your not hunting the right area,or don't know how to hunt mature deer?? Just a thought.
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#3167010 - 02/17/13 08:57 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Barnes Ridge Rambler]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: climb_higher
I would be happy with a 1 buck a year limit. Just look at Kentucky. They had over 60 Boone & Crocket entries last year!!!! And dont try telling me that its all in the crops and the soil. If you drive 10 mins across the state line the bucks get bigger. Why? Age!!!!


No, it is not age. TN hunters kill more mature bucks per square mile each year than KY hunters do. Yet KY hunters are filling the recordbooks and TN hunters are not. Why the difference? Soil and habitat.

I realize a lot of hunters refuse to accept the truth. But the truth is the truth, and deer should be managed using the best answers science can produce, not what hunters want to believe.
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#3167011 - 02/17/13 08:58 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Barnes Ridge Rambler]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: climb_higher
We'll never know their true potential until they have time to mature.


Doing what I do for a living, I get to see a lot of mature bucks in TN. However, their potential is WAY below what most hunters want to believe they will be.
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#3167019 - 02/17/13 09:05 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: cecil30-30]
jar
4 Point


Registered: 08/06/12
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Loc: tn, rutherford county

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Knowing how to hunt a mature deer or not, who wouldnt want more mature deer around. Oh yeah maybe the guys who just want to get bloody and say i shot a buck.
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#3167022 - 02/17/13 09:08 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
scn
16 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 10449
Loc: Brentwood, TN US

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: climb_higher
I would be happy with a 1 buck a year limit. Just look at Kentucky. They had over 60 Boone & Crocket entries last year!!!! And dont try telling me that its all in the crops and the soil. If you drive 10 mins across the state line the bucks get bigger. Why? Age!!!!


No, it is not age. TN hunters kill more mature bucks per square mile each year than KY hunters do. Yet KY hunters are filling the recordbooks and TN hunters are not. Why the difference? Soil and habitat.

I realize a lot of hunters refuse to accept the truth. But the truth is the truth, and deer should be managed using the best answers science can produce, not what hunters want to believe.


x2

Once hunters spend some extended time in the "trophy" states and are honest with their observations, they'll realize the age structure is very close to what they have in TN. But, due to soils and habitat the northern deer will have about 20" more bone on their head per year class than a TN deer. That 20" is enough to turn "nice" deer (like we now have in TN) into record book deer.

What uneducated (time in the woods and not book learning) hunters refuse to understand and believe is that you can't judge a buck's age by its rack. The TV shows with editted footage from intensively managed "trophy" properties don't help the average hunter with their perceptions, either.


Edited by scn (02/17/13 09:13 AM)
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#3167055 - 02/17/13 09:33 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: scn]
Barnes Ridge Rambler
6 Point


Registered: 12/16/11
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Yes i know how to hunt mature deer. Maybe im just jaded because i grew up hunting an area where peoples mentality are "if its brown its down." That same area joins public property. That i know of, 10 bucks were killed around my hunting area this year and none of them were over 2.5 years old. Ive passed on young bucks for the past few years and it pains me to hear a rifle crack as soon as they get out of sight. I just feel if people knew 1 was all they were gonna be able to shoot a year then they might think twice before ground checking a young buck.
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#3167062 - 02/17/13 09:34 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: scn]
Master Chief
10 Point


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I would like to try a 2 buck limit to see if the age structure would benefit. I don't think it would increase B&C entries in TN though.. the only way for antler size to really benefit is from hunter selectivity. A 120" 2.5 year old-let it walk. It will probably grow into a very nice buck. A 2.5 year old spike-probably not gonna grow into a 130+ deer unless he suddenly gets a big change in nutrition. A two buck limit isn't gonna stop the 120" 2.5 year old from being shot.
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#3167089 - 02/17/13 09:59 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Master Chief]
Barnes Ridge Rambler
6 Point


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And I'm curious as to how the state of Kentucky knows the average age of bucks harvested each year. Ive killed Doe up there before and their check-in is done by phone with the Tele-check system. I dont recall it asking for the age of the deer.
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#3167098 - 02/17/13 10:05 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Barnes Ridge Rambler]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: climb_higher
That i know of, 10 bucks were killed around my hunting area this year and none of them were over 2.5 years old


What's wrong with killing a 2 1/2 year-old buck? Most 2 1/2s have antlers that make the majority of hunters happy. And I've seen no data that suggests too many 2 1/2 year-old bucks are being killed from a given region. If hunters are letting bucks make it to 2 1/2, then enough of those bucks will survive to produce an adequate buck age structure.


 Quote:
I just feel if people knew 1 was all they were gonna be able to shoot a year then they might think twice before ground checking a young buck.


I don't disagree with that concept climb_higher. However, the problem I have with that is imposing it on everybody everywhere. Many counties in TN have perfectly adequate buck age structures and harvested buck age structures. Of course, many counties do not. I just don't want to see the state "managing for the worst-case scenario" to help those "poor" counties when that would be detrimental to hunting in the counties that are in fine shape. However, I would have no problem at all with the state experimenting with things that could be done only for the counties not in good shape, leaving the good counties alone.
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#3167099 - 02/17/13 10:06 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Barnes Ridge Rambler]
cecil30-30
16 Point


Registered: 12/05/06
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Don't forget guys,unit B had a two buck limit for years..And it had no effect at all on harvested buck age.
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#3167100 - 02/17/13 10:08 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Barnes Ridge Rambler]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: climb_higher
And I'm curious as to how the state of Kentucky knows the average age of bucks harvested each year. Ive killed Doe up there before and their check-in is done by phone with the Tele-check system. I dont recall it asking for the age of the deer.


They use sample surveys of deer at processors, which is where a growing number of states are getting their harvest data.
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#3167102 - 02/17/13 10:09 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Barnes Ridge Rambler]
scn
16 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
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Loc: Brentwood, TN US

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 Originally Posted By: climb_higher
And I'm curious as to how the state of Kentucky knows the average age of bucks harvested each year. Ive killed Doe up there before and their check-in is done by phone with the Tele-check system. I dont recall it asking for the age of the deer.


They gather biological data at deer processors. The data for TN and KY shows a very similar age structure.
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#3167108 - 02/17/13 10:14 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
Barnes Ridge Rambler
6 Point


Registered: 12/16/11
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Loc: Tennessee

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The majority of those 10 were 1.5 year olds. Very few were 2.5 year old and none of them would have scored 100". But like you said, if that makes them happy then so be it. It doesn't make me happy. And i know TN is very diverse and some counties produce outstanding deer annually. I like the idea of experimenting with the areas that arent producing.
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#3167113 - 02/17/13 10:17 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Barnes Ridge Rambler]
Barnes Ridge Rambler
6 Point


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I process my own deer. And a lot of people i know do as well. How are they factored into the average?
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#3167114 - 02/17/13 10:17 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
Frank G
8 Point


Registered: 12/20/12
Posts: 1409
Loc: Hardin Co, TN Pickwick Lake

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: climb_higher
That i know of, 10 bucks were killed around my hunting area this year and none of them were over 2.5 years old


What's wrong with killing a 2 1/2 year-old buck? Most 2 1/2s have antlers that make the majority of hunters happy. And I've seen no data that suggests too many 2 1/2 year-old bucks are being killed from a given region. If hunters are letting bucks make it to 2 1/2, then enough of those bucks will survive to produce an adequate buck age structure.


 Quote:
I just feel if people knew 1 was all they were gonna be able to shoot a year then they might think twice before ground checking a young buck.


I don't disagree with that concept climb_higher. However, the problem I have with that is imposing it on everybody everywhere. Many counties in TN have perfectly adequate buck age structures and harvested buck age structures. Of course, many counties do not. I just don't want to see the state "managing for the worst-case scenario" to help those "poor" counties when that would be detrimental to hunting in the counties that are in fine shape. However, I would have no problem at all with the state experimenting with things that could be done only for the counties not in good shape, leaving the good counties alone.


The state regulates bag limits with fall turky now per county. I'm sure it would work with deer as well.
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#3167119 - 02/17/13 10:19 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Barnes Ridge Rambler]
scn
16 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
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 Originally Posted By: climb_higher
I process my own deer. And a lot of people i know do as well. How are they factored into the average?


They aren't needed to get a valid sample.
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#3167127 - 02/17/13 10:23 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: scn]
Barnes Ridge Rambler
6 Point


Registered: 12/16/11
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Loc: Tennessee

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10-4. I suppose i just need to find a better hunting spot. Thanks scn and bsk for answering my questions and concerns.
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#3167505 - 02/17/13 04:41 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: jar]
Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
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Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 12232
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: jar
Knowing how to hunt a mature deer or not, who wouldnt want more mature deer around. Oh yeah maybe the guys who just want to get bloody and say i shot a buck.
Maybe that is what makes them happy. Not everyone is worried about rack size or age.
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#3167523 - 02/17/13 04:59 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: jar]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12099
Loc: Benton Co.

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 Originally Posted By: jar
Knowing how to hunt a mature deer or not, who wouldnt want more mature deer around. Oh yeah maybe the guys who just want to get bloody and say i shot a buck.

Do you honestly think making childish smart alex comments helps intelligent adults make educated well informed decisions ??BTW this is the serious forum.


Edited by WestTn Huntin'man (02/17/13 05:01 PM)
Edit Reason: serious forum is for serious disscussion
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#3167549 - 02/17/13 05:25 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
jar
4 Point


Registered: 08/06/12
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Loc: tn, rutherford county

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So sorry to be a smart a$$, I would never want to disrupt the informed decisions being decided upon by reading this forum.
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#3167909 - 02/17/13 09:02 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: jar]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


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I know a lot of hunters and don't know a 1 that enjoys getting bloody. Experienced hunters don't get much blood on them. Inexperienced are going to get some blood on them don't matter if it's a buck or a doe. It's just part of it and has nothing to do with Buck limits.
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#3168452 - 02/18/13 10:28 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Barnes Ridge Rambler]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: climb_higher
I like the idea of experimenting with the areas that arent producing.


Agreed, as long as the correct criteria are used to define "aren't producing." And what I mean by that is making sure "antler scores" aren't being used as a criterion for buck age structure "problems." The size of antlers grown by bucks is often far more about habitat quality than it is buck age. I know this runs counter to what many hunters believe, but this is a biological fact.
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#3168477 - 02/18/13 10:51 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: scn]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: scn
 Originally Posted By: climb_higher
I process my own deer. And a lot of people i know do as well. How are they factored into the average?


They aren't needed to get a valid sample.


climb_higher,

I think a lot of hunters question how valid numbers can be derived from small samples of the whole (how valid information can be obtained without examining every deer harvested). However, "sampling statistics" are an amazingly powerful tool, and proven accurate time and again, as long as the "mathematical rules" of statistical sampling are followed correctly.

For a decade, I worked for the U.S. Census Bureau, the world leader in sampling statistics. Every single "stat" you see on TV about the U.S. population or economy is produced by the U.S. Census Bureau (even those released by other agencies--all federal statistical data collection and analysis is contracted to the Census Bureau). While working for the Census Bureau, I worked with some of the sampling technique scientists, and when testing sampling designs, they would sample a small percentage of a given location with their new technique, and then go back and run a full 100% census of the same area to test the accuracy of the small sample. I can promise you the average person would NEVER believe just how accurate these insanely tiny samples can be IF the mathematical rules were followed correctly. And the way sampling works is that the larger the "population" of whatever it is that you want to know about, the smaller the "percentage" of that population that needs to be measured to get accurate numbers. That means that for a population the size of the entire U.S. population (over 300 million), only percentages as low as 0.00001 percent of people need to be sampled to get accurate numbers. For learning about all of the bucks harvested in TN each year (around 80,000), only a tiny percentage (a couple of percent) need to be sampled to get accurate information, and the TWRA's sample size easily exceeds that.
_________________________
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#3168486 - 02/18/13 10:59 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: jar]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: jar
Knowing how to hunt a mature deer or not, who wouldnt want more mature deer around. Oh yeah maybe the guys who just want to get bloody and say i shot a buck.


I really do understand what you are saying, and where your frustration comes from. But I believe a couple of points need to be made.

Too often I see those who prefer to hunt only mature bucks make the incorrect assumption that those hunters who do not hunt exclusively for mature bucks are ALL "brown it's down" hunters. That would be a huge mistake. Many hunters-managers exist that do not hunt exclusively for mature bucks, but do a very good job of protecting the youngest age-classes of buck, and do a great job of managing their local buck age structure. A hunter does not need to manage only for mature bucks to produce a local buck age structure that contains mature bucks. As long as a hunter or group of hunters' harvest decisions allow some bucks to mature, it doesn't matter what bucks are being harvested. Too many hunters are acquiring an incorrect view of how mature bucks are produced through management. Several valid techniques exist beyond just limiting the harvest of bucks to only mature bucks.
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#3168496 - 02/18/13 11:11 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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I really do understand the frustrations of many hunters that currently hunt in the most difficult to manage situations. We hunters that hunt in the easy to manage situations don't realize how lucky we are.

Although limiting the age of bucks killed (protecting young bucks) is the fastest way to produce mature bucks in any deer population, simply killing less total bucks each year than are produced through reproduction (number of button bucks produced) WILL advance the buck age structure and produce mature bucks.

This is easily acheived in some parts of the state, especially those areas with large land-ownership patterns, lower hunter densities (lots of big clubs and leases), and a moderate to high deer density (most often found in parts of Unit L). In these situations, far more bucks exist than hunters, and even if hunters aren't that selective about what age bucks they kill, the total buck harvest is less than the number of new bucks produced each year, and the buck age structure gets older over time.

And then you have sections of Unit B, with low deer densities (few bucks) and lots of hunters. THAT is an extraordinarily difficult situation to manage to the point of producing mature bucks. If there are more hunters in the woods than bucks in the woods, even a 1 buck limit isn't going to help. Every hunter killing their 1 buck still decimates the buck population every year.

So the TWRA is between a rock and hard place. They have pockets of the state that are currently in exceptional shape and where imposing restrictive limits would actually be detrimental. And then they have pockets of the state were no realistic limit could be set that will produce what some hunters want (harveatable numbers of mature bucks). So what are they to do? I wish I had the answer...
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#3168529 - 02/18/13 11:42 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
Vermin93
12 Point


Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 6400
Loc: Dallas, TX & Signal Mtn, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
So the TWRA is between a rock and hard place. They have pockets of the state that are currently in exceptional shape and where imposing restrictive limits would actually be detrimental. And then they have pockets of the state were no realistic limit could be set that will produce what some hunters want (harveatable numbers of mature bucks). So what are they to do? I wish I had the answer...


What about regional buck limits just like we have regional doe limits? Would that help?
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#3168571 - 02/18/13 12:32 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12099
Loc: Benton Co.

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: jar
Knowing how to hunt a mature deer or not, who wouldnt want more mature deer around. Oh yeah maybe the guys who just want to get bloody and say i shot a buck.


I really do understand what you are saying, and where your frustration comes from. But I believe a couple of points need to be made.

Too often I see those who prefer to hunt only mature bucks make the incorrect assumption that those hunters who do not hunt exclusively for mature bucks are ALL "brown it's down" hunters. That would be a huge mistake. Many hunters-managers exist that do not hunt exclusively for mature bucks, but do a very good job of protecting the youngest age-classes of buck, and do a great job of managing their local buck age structure. A hunter does not need to manage only for mature bucks to produce a local buck age structure that contains mature bucks. As long as a hunter or group of hunters' harvest decisions allow some bucks to mature, it doesn't matter what bucks are being harvested. Too many hunters are acquiring an incorrect view of how mature bucks are produced through management. Several valid techniques exist beyond just limiting the harvest of bucks to only mature bucks.


I know a lot of hunters but know of NONE at all that just want to get bloody and say they got a Buck.
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#3168611 - 02/18/13 01:23 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: WestTn Huntin'man
I know a lot of hunters but know of NONE at all that just want to get bloody and say they got a Buck.


I don't know WestTn Huntin'man. If we ignore the "get bloody" part, I would not be shocked in the least if a survey of all deer hunters in TN found that more than 50% of all deer hunters will gladly shoot the first buck they see. I really do believe the majority of deer hunters want to kill "their" buck for the year.

Honestly, I'm not that far from that myself. Although I teach, promote, and practice QDM, I absolutely want to kill a buck every year. I don't pour the time, money, blood, sweat, and even tears into my hunting land to come away empty handed most of the time. Now that doesn't mean I'm going to shoot a yearling buck just to "get my buck," but I'm also not going to let 100-class 2 1/2 year-olds wander by me repeatedly and then go buckless for the year, at least not for many years in a row!
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#3168648 - 02/18/13 01:58 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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To add to the above, every hunter has different wants, needs, and desires from their hunting experience. Some want only mature bucks, and they are willing to go years between buck kills to acheive what they want. I say to those hunters, "More power to you, and good luck." I hope they are successful. But also, "Don't ask me to hunt the same way!"

And then there are those hunters at the opposite end of the spectrum who just want to kill a buck each year, any buck. And I say, "More power too you, and good luck." But again, "Don't ask me to hunt the same way!"

Everybody wants something different, and that's OK, as long as one group doesn't try to force their style on everybody else AND it is biologically possible for everybody to manage for the experience they want. Now we all know compromises must be made between neighbors with opposite management strategies, but that's life.
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#3168652 - 02/18/13 02:00 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12099
Loc: Benton Co.

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I don't disagree that a lot of hunters are happy to get a buck irregardless of age or horns.For the 1st 10 or 12 years that I hunted I was happy to see and be able to shoot a deer period buck or doe.During this time Tn had a 11 buck limit and the only places I had to hunt were public lands.I can understand and relate to that feeling.
I strongly object to the enjoying getting bloody part. It is a image that many non hunters have of all hunters.It is part of the hunt .I stand by my statement that I do not know of any hunters that enjoy getting bloody.The statement projects a bad image of hunters in general.It has nothing to do with a 1,2,or 3, buck limit or managing a quality deer population.
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#3168667 - 02/18/13 02:13 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12099
Loc: Benton Co.

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Compromise is without a doubt in my mind what is needed for all hunters to be happy. I think TWRA has done a good job at keeping most hunters happy and the herd healthy.The media has done a very good job of encouraging hunters to be obsessed with horn size.
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Proverbs 3:27 Whenever you possibly can, do good to those who need it

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#3168729 - 02/18/13 03:21 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
WRbowhunter
8 Point


Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1669
Loc: collierville,tn

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 Originally Posted By: WestTn Huntin'man

I strongly object to the enjoying getting bloody part. It is a image that many non hunters have of all hunters.It is part of the hunt .I stand by my statement that I do not know of any hunters that enjoy getting bloody.The statement projects a bad image of hunters in general.It has nothing to do with a 1,2,or 3, buck limit or managing a quality deer population.


What are you referring to when you say getting Bloody? Just getting blood on your cloths when gutting a deer or a tradtion after killing your first deer.
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#3168752 - 02/18/13 04:09 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: WRbowhunter]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12099
Loc: Benton Co.

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I was referring to Jar's comment about hunters that just want to get a buck and and get bloody.It Makes hunters sound like they are blood thirsty savages.IMO most hunters try to make quick clean kills and try to be quick and clean with their butchering. Quite the opposite of enjoying the bloody part of it.
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#3168788 - 02/18/13 04:36 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK

So the TWRA is between a rock and hard place. They have pockets of the state that are currently in exceptional shape and where imposing restrictive limits would actually be detrimental. And then they have pockets of the state were no realistic limit could be set that will produce what some hunters want (harveatable numbers of mature bucks). So what are they to do? I wish I had the answer...


Abandoning the current unit structure in favor of smaller divisions based on current needs for that section? I guess just breaking by county would be the easiest for the average hunter to try and keep up with (Especially those of us who may hunt 3, 4 or more counties in a given season).

BTW, thanks for your posts on this - I find the stuff you're sharing to be fascinating.
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#3168821 - 02/18/13 05:04 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: -DRM-]
pseshooter300
8 Point


Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 1046
Loc: kingsport

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I wish it was 2 buck limit
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#3168840 - 02/18/13 05:16 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: -DRM-]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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-DRM- and others,

I think county by county regs would be the only chance of "fixing" some small scale problem areas, but I wonder if even that is small-scale enough. Pockets within counties can be great or poor.

In addition, the state recently went to more regionwide limits because so many hunters were complaining about the localized regulations being too complicated. If you want to see complicated, go look at the regulations, seasons, and limits in Lower Michigan. Counties are sub-divided into management "units" (north of this road and west of that road and south of this road) and bag limits set by each of these sub-units. That means your neighbor across the road could be hunting under different bag limits than you are. THAT'S complicated!
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#3168843 - 02/18/13 05:17 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: WestTn Huntin'man
I was referring to Jar's comment about hunters that just want to get a buck and and get bloody.It Makes hunters sound like they are blood thirsty savages.IMO most hunters try to make quick clean kills and try to be quick and clean with their butchering. Quite the opposite of enjoying the bloody part of it.


I fully get your opposition to jar's comments.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3168876 - 02/18/13 05:46 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
scn
16 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 10449
Loc: Brentwood, TN US

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
-DRM- and others,

I think county by county regs would be the only chance of "fixing" some small scale problem areas, but I wonder if even that is small-scale enough. Pockets within counties can be great or poor.

In addition, the state recently went to more regionwide limits because so many hunters were complaining about the localized regulations being too complicated. If you want to see complicated, go look at the regulations, seasons, and limits in Lower Michigan. Counties are sub-divided into management "units" (north of this road and west of that road and south of this road) and bag limits set by each of these sub-units. That means your neighbor across the road could be hunting under different bag limits than you are. THAT'S complicated!


And, to add to how complicated those type regulations are, they would also be totally unenforceable under the current check-in system. The internet and mobile app options of check-in would have to be scrapped to have any chance at reasonable compliance with county or sub-county regulations. IMO, the likelihood of them bringing any improvement, whatever that might be, is not worth the inconvenience it would cause hunters.
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#3168899 - 02/18/13 06:08 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: scn]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: scn
IMO, the likelihood of them bringing any improvement, whatever that might be, is not worth the inconvenience it would cause hunters.


Well said scn.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3168923 - 02/18/13 06:19 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
Diehard Hunter
CRAMP
12 Point


Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 6980
Loc: East Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: scn
IMO, the likelihood of them bringing any improvement, whatever that might be, is not worth the inconvenience it would cause hunters.


Well said scn.


Wasn't there a thread in the TWRA forum last year or the year before complaining about how complicated our regulations were? It amazes me to see all the complaining about complicated regs, the TWRA simplifies things and people then want TWRA to make them more complicated again!

I am starting to recall why I decided to not go the agency route all those years ago!
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#3168935 - 02/18/13 06:25 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Diehard Hunter]
Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point


Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 12232
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: scn
IMO, the likelihood of them bringing any improvement, whatever that might be, is not worth the inconvenience it would cause hunters.


Well said scn.


Wasn't there a thread in the TWRA forum last year or the year before complaining about how complicated our regulations were? It amazes me to see all the complaining about complicated regs, the TWRA simplifies things and people then want TWRA to make them more complicated again!

I am starting to recall why I decided to not go the agency route all those years ago!
You can offer some people free beer and they would complain if you asked them to bring their own mug!! \:D
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
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#3168951 - 02/18/13 06:35 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Beekeeper]
Trapper John
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/13/99
Posts: 11888
Loc: Murfreesboro,TN/Decaturville, ...

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 Originally Posted By: Beekeeper
 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: scn
IMO, the likelihood of them bringing any improvement, whatever that might be, is not worth the inconvenience it would cause hunters.


Well said scn.


Wasn't there a thread in the TWRA forum last year or the year before complaining about how complicated our regulations were? It amazes me to see all the complaining about complicated regs, the TWRA simplifies things and people then want TWRA to make them more complicated again!

I am starting to recall why I decided to not go the agency route all those years ago!
You can offer some people free beer and they would complain if you asked them to bring their own mug!! \:D


I enjoy this analogy and find it to be perfect in every way. It points out the ability of people to be perpetually unsatisfied AND it mentions beer. Well done.

Oh, and I like things how they are. Freedom galore for Unit A/L. I don't hunt Unit B and am not near educated enough on how things are out East, so I'll remain silent on that one due to lack of information.

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#3169235 - 02/18/13 09:50 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Trapper John]
pseshooter300
8 Point


Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 1046
Loc: kingsport

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I have never been to west Tn but are they really that many deer there? I here people claim they are running everywhere like rats lol. Here in the east that is not the case at least the properties i hunt? I just always thought a 2 buck limit would help but then again what do i know i just enjoy hunting
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#3169251 - 02/18/13 10:12 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: pseshooter300]
TeamMainStreet
10 Point


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 2629
Loc: Union County,Tn

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My hair hurts after reading all of this garb. You hunt the way you want to and I'll hunt the way I want to and with any luck we will both be happy at the end of the day. If you only want to kill 1 buck or even 2 bucks, don't let a 3 buck limit get in your way. It's real easy. Don't pull the trigger no more. Problem solved.
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#3169267 - 02/18/13 10:27 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: TeamMainStreet]
deerhunter10
10 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 3542
Loc: maury county tn

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instead of changing the bag limit how likely would it be to change the season starts? people please don't get me wrong I am happy with them I am just curious. im sure there is a thread about it I just haven't found it.
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#3169282 - 02/18/13 10:45 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
Vermin93
12 Point


Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 6400
Loc: Dallas, TX & Signal Mtn, TN

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Is a 2 buck limit likely or just a rumor at this point?
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#3169336 - 02/19/13 03:29 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Vermin93]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12099
Loc: Benton Co.

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ONly a rumor without much to back it up.
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#3169386 - 02/19/13 06:35 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: pseshooter300]
stik
"Popcorn"
18 Point


Registered: 03/12/99
Posts: 21393
Loc: lenoir city,tn

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 Originally Posted By: pseshooter300
I have never been to west Tn but are they really that many deer there? I here people claim they are running everywhere like rats lol. Here in the east that is not the case at least the properties i hunt? I just always thought a 2 buck limit would help but then again what do i know i just enjoy hunting


unit B had a 2 buck limit for several years. it didn't help. and a 3 buck limit doesn't hurt.
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#3169406 - 02/19/13 07:04 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: stik]
Frank G
8 Point


Registered: 12/20/12
Posts: 1409
Loc: Hardin Co, TN Pickwick Lake

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 Originally Posted By: stik
 Originally Posted By: pseshooter300
I have never been to west Tn but are they really that many deer there? I here people claim they are running everywhere like rats lol. Here in the east that is not the case at least the properties i hunt? I just always thought a 2 buck limit would help but then again what do i know i just enjoy hunting


unit B had a 2 buck limit for several years. it didn't help. and a 3 buck limit doesn't hurt.

To pseshooter300
There are areas here in southern "L" that Your description “running around like rats” is correct “big rats” would be better call though (ha). I took a buck with my Ford on the way to the lease one morning. Another member took one with his Chevy on the way home the next evening “AND” two days latter as we were standing by our gate locking up a car took a doe not 150 feet up the road. As I’m sitting here composing this return note there are 11 walking by across from my house, no kidding man. Check out hunt swaps forum, your more then welcome to come over next season a take a couple to the “locker” if you like. Send a note and we can set up.
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#3169419 - 02/19/13 07:17 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Frank G]
Frank G
8 Point


Registered: 12/20/12
Posts: 1409
Loc: Hardin Co, TN Pickwick Lake

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Follow up:
Most don't relize how well they have it here in Tennessee overall. The DNR does a great jop with regulating the resource, not a easy task. Granted we don’t have as many of the “monsters” here as other states, but it has to do more with agriculture then setting buck limits. I for one relocating to TN was one of my best moves.
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#3169520 - 02/19/13 08:46 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: pseshooter300]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: pseshooter300
I have never been to west Tn but are they really that many deer there? I here people claim they are running everywhere like rats lol. Here in the east that is not the case at least the properties i hunt? I just always thought a 2 buck limit would help but then again what do i know i just enjoy hunting


It really depends on what part of Unit L you are talking about. In some of the mixed hardwood and agricultural regions of Unit L, deer densities are the highest in the state (although not outrageously high like in some of the Northern states like WI, Lower MI, and parts of NY). And by "high" I mean perhaps 30+ deer per square mile (unlike some Northern states that have pockets of 60-100 deer per square mile). In the big sections of ridge-and-hollow hardwoods of Unit L, deer densities are still better than Unit B, but not that high. More like 20-25 deer per square mile. And considering the rugged terrain and forest cover, hunters don't see that many deer while hunting. Sighting rates of 0.5 to 1.0 deer per hunting hour are common for this region. In the mixed ag regions, sightings of 1-3 deer per hour of hunting are fairly common.
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#3169616 - 02/19/13 11:00 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: pseshooter300]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25536
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

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 Originally Posted By: pseshooter300
I have never been to west Tn but are they really that many deer there? I here people claim they are running everywhere like rats lol. Here in the east that is not the case at least the properties i hunt? I just always thought a 2 buck limit would help but then again what do i know i just enjoy hunting
Yep,there are more,not surprising to see 10 or 12 in an afternoon.Not every time of course.Heck,I see 10 to 15 deer about everyday,just driving back and forth to work.
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#3169738 - 02/19/13 01:45 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Football Hunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
 Originally Posted By: pseshooter300
I have never been to west Tn but are they really that many deer there? I here people claim they are running everywhere like rats lol. Here in the east that is not the case at least the properties i hunt? I just always thought a 2 buck limit would help but then again what do i know i just enjoy hunting
Yep,there are more,not surprising to see 10 or 12 in an afternoon.Not every time of course.Heck,I see 10 to 15 deer about everyday,just driving back and forth to work.


I perfect example of how different deer density and deer observability can be between different areas of Unit L, even nearby areas. Football Hunter's place isn't that far from my place. However, his place includes bottomland agriculture as well as upland hardwoods. My place is all upland hardwoods. We've NEVER seen 10-12 deer in a single hunt, let alone consider it common. In fact, even in a great year, we rarely exceed seeing deer on 50% of our hunts, and then only see 1-3 deer in a hunt where we do see deer. In a great year, we see 0.5 deer per hour (basically 1 deer for every 2 hours of hunting). In a poor year, we see around 0.25 deer per hour (1 deer for every 4 hours of hunting).
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3169838 - 02/19/13 03:42 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
bbuck14
8 Point


Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 1231
Loc: West Tn.

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Its not uncommon at all to see multiple bucks everytime you go out. It slows down as season goes along but 3,4,5,or more bucks a day is not uncommon at all in some places. I can't recall a time on stand in years not seeing a deer at all. And I hunt just about everyday from muzzleloader season on.
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#3169875 - 02/19/13 04:21 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: bbuck14]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: bbuck14
Its not uncommon at all to see multiple bucks everytime you go out. It slows down as season goes along but 3,4,5,or more bucks a day is not uncommon at all in some places. I can't recall a time on stand in years not seeing a deer at all. And I hunt just about everyday from muzzleloader season on.


Those are amazingly high deer sights bbuck14.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3170012 - 02/19/13 06:39 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
-DRM- and others,

I think county by county regs would be the only chance of "fixing" some small scale problem areas, but I wonder if even that is small-scale enough. Pockets within counties can be great or poor.


I said counties because that is IMHO about as localized as you can go and still keep it somewhat understandable to the average hunter...

But then again, I'm not really sure anything needs "fixing", so I'm just musing conceptual stuff here with you guys.
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#3170037 - 02/19/13 07:04 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: -DRM-]
bbuck14
8 Point


Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 1231
Loc: West Tn.

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BSK you probably wouldn't believe me if I gave some real figures. I'm being on the conservative side saying 3-5 bucks at a time. Sometimes its alot more then that.
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#3170088 - 02/19/13 07:42 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: bbuck14]
MRUTVOL
6 Point


Registered: 12/16/02
Posts: 904
Loc: Goodlettsville,Tennessee,USA

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I am not sure BSK how you can determine the number of deer in a square mile without actually counting them. I would say your only guessing myself. I sat one afternoon and counted 39 in one group in a field I was watching and on another occasion had 21 in one 5 acre field and 17 of them were bucks. This was on property in southern unit L with a mixture of harwoods and ag land.
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#3170109 - 02/19/13 07:52 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: MRUTVOL]
deerhunter10
10 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 3542
Loc: maury county tn

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we have farms around maury county in santa fe hickman county and giles county. and for the most part its not un common to see 10-15 deer a sit the most ive seen in a sit is 67. but we have hardwoods ag fields and all the goodies. but I know some that only see 1-5 deer like bsk says. it just depends on the farm. gotta have plenty of food plenty of cover and water and for the most part that in the long run will give you more deer density. imo. but all of this doesn't happen over night lots of time and a whole lot of work. but some farms just cant and some just for some reason don't hold a lot of deer.
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#3170138 - 02/19/13 08:04 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: MRUTVOL]
bbuck14
8 Point


Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 1231
Loc: West Tn.

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 Originally Posted By: MRUTVOL
I am not sure BSK how you can determine the number of deer in a square mile without actually counting them. I would say your only guessing myself. I sat one afternoon and counted 39 in one group in a field I was watching and on another occasion had 21 in one 5 acre field and 17 of them were bucks. This was on property in southern unit L with a mixture of harwoods and ag land.


Thats what I'm talking about. Unit L in my area is full of deer. I have seen as many as 21 bucks in one day, which isn't the norm but not uncommon. Most of my friends all hunt different farms scattered all around many miles apart in which we all manage for big deer. And its the same for all of us. I know in 4 days 4 of us killed 42 does off one farm one year. The last one I shot was in a group of 17.

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#3170158 - 02/19/13 08:12 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: bbuck14]
pseshooter300
8 Point


Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 1046
Loc: kingsport

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You guys are lucky at least seeing deer like that helps pass the time. Wish we could get a deer heard like that here in the eastern part of the state
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#3170168 - 02/19/13 08:14 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: pseshooter300]
bbuck14
8 Point


Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 1231
Loc: West Tn.

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We are very, very lucky. Its definetly never boring.
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#3170187 - 02/19/13 08:25 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: MRUTVOL]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: MRUTVOL
I am not sure BSK how you can determine the number of deer in a square mile without actually counting them.


First, remember that "deer per square mile" numbers only work when you're talking about large areas; i.e. areas tens of square miles in size. And even then, each square mile won't have the same number of deer at any given time, and deer move around. A deer may cover several square miles over a few days time, or a few months time. Basically, deer density numbers are averages over large areas.

And by the way, the TWRA has counted them! In a round about sort of way. They ran thermal imager counts all over the state a couple of years ago and got very accurate density numbers that worked out for several years in a row. I would say my estimates (based on their data and my camera census data) is pretty close to "average" for those areas.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3170196 - 02/19/13 08:30 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: deerhunter10]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: deerhunter10
we have farms around maury county in santa fe hickman county and giles county. and for the most part its not un common to see 10-15 deer a sit the most ive seen in a sit is 67. but we have hardwoods ag fields and all the goodies. but I know some that only see 1-5 deer like bsk says. it just depends on the farm. gotta have plenty of food plenty of cover and water and for the most part that in the long run will give you more deer density. imo. but all of this doesn't happen over night lots of time and a whole lot of work. but some farms just cant and some just for some reason don't hold a lot of deer.


And also remember that what is seen while hunting has far more to do with the hunting set-up than the deer density (within reason). A stand set-up that can only see 50 yards in all directions is visually covering only 1.6 acres of ground. A stand that can see 100 yards in all directions is covering 6.5 acres of ground. That's 4 times more ground for each time you double your visual distance. If someone is hunting an ag field where they can see 200 yards, they can easily be visually covering 10 to 20 times more ground than a bow hunter back in thick cover who can only see 25 yards.

Big difference.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3170200 - 02/19/13 08:32 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: pseshooter300]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: pseshooter300
You guys are lucky at least seeing deer like that helps pass the time. Wish we could get a deer heard like that here in the eastern part of the state


Any habitat will only support so many deer. Agriculture can support a huge number of deer. Mature hardwoods can support few deer.
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#3170226 - 02/19/13 08:44 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: bbuck14]
r'ville a-bolt
4 Point


Registered: 01/28/13
Posts: 221
Loc: nc graham

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where I live in western nc there's very low deer numbers.2 yrs ago a couple buddies asked me and my bother to join a lease in unit L. needless to say I'm glad I joined. I've hunted nc,ga.sc,and now tn.I hope to stay a while. My first 2 seasons i'm seeing deer on about half my sits. seen approx 50 deer in about 20 days of hunting. May not sound like a lot but I feel like I will see a deer every time I go out. It's worth the 6 hr trip!
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#3170265 - 02/19/13 09:05 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
deerhunter10
10 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 3542
Loc: maury county tn

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: deerhunter10
we have farms around maury county in santa fe hickman county and giles county. and for the most part its not un common to see 10-15 deer a sit the most ive seen in a sit is 67. but we have hardwoods ag fields and all the goodies. but I know some that only see 1-5 deer like bsk says. it just depends on the farm. gotta have plenty of food plenty of cover and water and for the most part that in the long run will give you more deer density. imo. but all of this doesn't happen over night lots of time and a whole lot of work. but some farms just cant and some just for some reason don't hold a lot of deer.


And also remember that what is seen while hunting has far more to do with the hunting set-up than the deer density (within reason). A stand set-up that can only see 50 yards in all directions is visually covering only 1.6 acres of ground. A stand that can see 100 yards in all directions is covering 6.5 acres of ground. That's 4 times more ground for each time you double your visual distance. If someone is hunting an ag field where they can see 200 yards, they can easily be visually covering 10 to 20 times more ground than a bow hunter back in thick cover who can only see 25 yards.

Big difference.


thanks you never thought of that like that makes sense. but we have also see a lot of deer in thick cover stand only seeing 50-70 yards. I mean we have a lot of deer on our farms very fortunate that we have the land we have. so very thankful.
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#3170304 - 02/19/13 09:29 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: deerhunter10]
Barnes Ridge Rambler
6 Point


Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 516
Loc: Tennessee

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Must be nice to see 67 deer in one sitting. I hunt Unit B and havent seen 67 while hunting in at least the last 5 years combined. Maybe longer. And that includes from opening morning of bow season to late rifle season. Count your blessings.
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#3170336 - 02/19/13 10:01 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Barnes Ridge Rambler]
deerhunter10
10 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 3542
Loc: maury county tn

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 Originally Posted By: climb_higher
Must be nice to see 67 deer in one sitting. I hunt Unit B and havent seen 67 while hunting in at least the last 5 years combined. Maybe longer. And that includes from opening morning of bow season to late rifle season. Count your blessings.


I am very much so.
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#3170436 - 02/20/13 06:13 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: bbuck14]
pseshooter300
8 Point


Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 1046
Loc: kingsport

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Just curious are the deer pretty good size in L as far as weight? If anyone needs a doe taken out this coming season shoot me a PM lol. Farthest west i have been in Tennessee is Nashville sounds like some good hunting out there though.
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#3170472 - 02/20/13 07:10 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: pseshooter300]
Frank G
8 Point


Registered: 12/20/12
Posts: 1409
Loc: Hardin Co, TN Pickwick Lake

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 Originally Posted By: pseshooter300
Just curious are the deer pretty good size in L as far as weight? If anyone needs a doe taken out this coming season shoot me a PM lol. Farthest west i have been in Tennessee is Nashville sounds like some good hunting out there though.


Just sent PM
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#3170477 - 02/20/13 07:15 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Frank G]
pseshooter300
8 Point


Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 1046
Loc: kingsport

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Frank i didn't get a PM did it not go through
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#3170479 - 02/20/13 07:18 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: pseshooter300]
Frank G
8 Point


Registered: 12/20/12
Posts: 1409
Loc: Hardin Co, TN Pickwick Lake

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 Originally Posted By: pseshooter300
Frank i didn't get a PM did it not go through

Will try again .... thanks for the follow up.
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#3170526 - 02/20/13 08:28 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: pseshooter300]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: pseshooter300
Just curious are the deer pretty good size in L as far as weight?


Again, body weights will vary from location to location, and will depend on what the local deer have to eat. Get near agriculture, and body weights will go up. Get waaaay back into the hills and hollers and body weights will go down. The same goes for antler scores.
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#3170567 - 02/20/13 09:10 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1326
Loc: south TN

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Hunting pressure has to be a big deal in seeing that many deer as well. During August and september you see 15-20 deer out in the fields around my place, and all through bow season is high deer sightings. But after Thanksgiving we just do not see anything. Maybe a doe and her two fawns every other or three hunts.
Once people start shooting they get smart and turn nocturnal. Bucks and does.

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#3170639 - 02/20/13 10:27 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: woodsman87]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
Hunting pressure has to be a big deal in seeing that many deer as well. During August and september you see 15-20 deer out in the fields around my place, and all through bow season is high deer sightings. But after Thanksgiving we just do not see anything. Maybe a doe and her two fawns every other or three hunts.
Once people start shooting they get smart and turn nocturnal. Bucks and does.


Excellent point woodsman87.
_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3170692 - 02/20/13 11:22 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: pseshooter300]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25536
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

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 Originally Posted By: pseshooter300
Just curious are the deer pretty good size in L as far as weight? If anyone needs a doe taken out this coming season shoot me a PM lol. Farthest west i have been in Tennessee is Nashville sounds like some good hunting out there though.
Plenty of public hunting full of deer,should be no problem to kill a doe
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#3171344 - 02/20/13 09:18 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
MRUTVOL
6 Point


Registered: 12/16/02
Posts: 904
Loc: Goodlettsville,Tennessee,USA

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[quote=BSK
And by the way, the TWRA has counted them! In a round about sort of way. They ran thermal imager counts all over the state a couple of years ago and got very accurate density numbers that worked out for several years in a row. I would say my estimates (based on their data and my camera census data) is pretty close to "average" for those areas. [/quote]

Unless they did it from the sky I would say they are just guessing again on numbers,IMO. The farms I hunt are not accessible from a main road. Either way I agree with you it varys greatly from one area to another.

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#3171571 - 02/21/13 06:34 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: MRUTVOL]
BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
12 Point


Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 6642
Loc: Nashville

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Did we count the deer on your farm...probably not. Did we count deer in the county your farm is in? Absolutely yes. Keep in mind we didn'T&E count every single deer out there, we counted a sub sample to get an estimate in deer densities.
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#3171724 - 02/21/13 09:07 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: WRbowhunter]
jeff034fun
4 Point


Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 414
Loc: lenoir city

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 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
 Originally Posted By: landman
Heard they were going to 2 Bucks this year
cool.I hope you mean 2 bucks per day.this one buck a day is for the birds.sometime 2 spikes come in together
lmao

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#3171737 - 02/21/13 09:22 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: MRUTVOL]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: MRUTVOL
 Originally Posted By: BSK

And by the way, the TWRA has counted them! In a round about sort of way. They ran thermal imager counts all over the state a couple of years ago and got very accurate density numbers that worked out for several years in a row. I would say my estimates (based on their data and my camera census data) is pretty close to "average" for those areas.


Unless they did it from the sky I would say they are just guessing again on numbers,IMO. The farms I hunt are not accessible from a main road. Either way I agree with you it varys greatly from one area to another.


MRUTVOLS,

As BGG said, they sampled the population through a very detailed process called "distance sampling." Before you downplay any numbers generated from anything less than a full count (which is impossible), you really need to look at the description of the process on the TWRA's website. It is a fascinating method of estimating deer density from a thermal imaging sample, and to date, THE best density estimations of any state in the nation.


As I was mentioning to woodsman87 in another thread, too often hunters get confused by overly simplistic logic, when the real answer is far more complicated. This is especially the case when trying to interpret the value of "deer density" numbers. Hunters will look at deer density numbers and then start trying to calculate how many deer they have on their property. But it doesn't work out because deer density numbers are just averages over a broad area, and deer have such large annual ranges and tend to move around so much daily and seasonally.

Here's an example I hope gets my point across:

Imagine a 9 square mile area broken into perfect square miles--three across and three down (like a tic-tac-toe grid). Now imagine you own the center square mile of this grid. That means you have 8 neighboring square mile parcels (one to the north, one catty-corner to the northeast, one to the east, the southeast, the south, the southwest, the west, and the northwest). Now lets say that the real deer density is 30 deer per square mile. If it were possible to take a satellite image of the area, where each deer glowed bright red and could easily be seen and counted, there would be 270 deer in that 9 square mile area (9 square miles times 30 deer per square mile). However, what you would find with this satellite image is that the deer are not evenly spread across the 9 square miles; i.e. not every grid-square would have 30 deer in it. Some might have only 10 while others might have 50. And because deer have such large ranges, if you took another satellite image a few days later, the numbers would be different in each square (although the total would be the same). Deer that were in your grid-square (on your property) one day, might be on one of the surrounding square miles squares another day. To confuse matters more, deer also often display seasonal range shifts. They may be staying in one area during the summer, yet move to another area in fall (usually to follow changing food sources, but also due to seasonal behavior, such as bachelor group formation in summer and the break-up of those groups in fall).

What this means to you owning the center square mile of this 9-square mile area is that the total number and identity of individual deer you have on your property on a given day or between seasons of the year can be very different.

Although this doesn't sound all that important, this plays a critical role in the difference between how many deer hunters see on a given propery in comparison to the real deer density (which often sounds far too low). Let's say you ran a photo census (or any type of census, and what deer hunters see over any time period is a type of "sample census"). Because you have a square mile of land, and because the deer density is 30 deer per square mile, a census should find 30 deer on your property, right? Wrong. A census run over time (and all current census methods collect data over time, whether it is just a few weeks or months) will catch "your" 30 deer in your square mile. But because deer move around so much daily and seasonally, you will census at least half of all of the deer from every surrounding square mile, as they regularly move back and forth across the artificial square mile boundaries. And again, half is probably a minimum. It could be much more. With 8 surrounding square miles, each with 30 deer in them, and half of the deer in each surrounding square miles eventually wandering onto your property and being counted in the census, that's 120 deer from surround square miles that get picked up in your census (15 [half] of the 30 deer in 8 surrounding square miles [8 x 15 = 120]). And that's in addition to the "your" square mile property's 30 deer, for a total of 150 deer counted in your census. And once again, picking up half of the deer from surround square miles is a minimum. It could easily be in excess of 75% of the deer on each surrounding square mile.

But this is why "how many deer hunters see" as well as "how many deer are photographed in a photo census" is be no means an accurate assessment of deer density. From a real deer density of 30 deer per square mile, hunters on a single square mile of land will have the opportunity to see and harvest at least 150 different deer. That's FIVE TIMES more than the density numbers suggest should be there.

And this huge difference between what can be seen versus the actual deer density gets exaggerated the smaller the size of the hunting property. Instead of owning the entire central square mile (640 acres) of the 9-square mile area, let's assume you only own 160 acres (one-quarter square mile) near the center of the 9-square miles. Because you only have 1/4 of a square mile, you should only have 1/4 the number of deer to hunt than if you owned a full square mile to hunt, right? Nope. Because deer have such large home ranges, if you censused just the central 1/4 of a full square mile area, you will still pick up the majority of the same deer you would get if you censused the entire square mile. So if you owned only 160 acres (1/4 square mile) and you made the assumption you should only find 1/4 of the deer that the deer density per square mile says is there, you would be assuming you have 7-8 deer on the property (30 / 4 = 7.5 deer). Yet in reality, you would probably pick up at least 75% of the deer in that 160 acres that you would have gotten if you owned and censused the full square mile (150), which means you would probably pick up at least 113 deer (150 * 75% = 112.5). So now you can see why smaller property size (below a square mile) greatly exaggerates the difference between what you can see as a hunter (or pick up on a census) versus the real density. With 160 acres, you assumed you had 7 or 8 deer to see/hunt. Yet in reality you have at least 112-113 deer to see/hunt. That's 15 TIMES more deer than the deer density suggests should be there.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3171766 - 02/21/13 09:44 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
scn
16 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 10449
Loc: Brentwood, TN US

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Brian,

That post should be pinned at the top of this forum.

GREAT explanation!

sn
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#3171776 - 02/21/13 09:49 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: scn]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2835
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

Offline
Fixed it \:D

Bryan,

That post should be pinned at the top of this forum.

GREAT explanation!

sn
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#3171783 - 02/21/13 09:56 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: scn]
Frank G
8 Point


Registered: 12/20/12
Posts: 1409
Loc: Hardin Co, TN Pickwick Lake

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Outstanding …… BSK. I agree with SCN post this one at the VERY top. This should be submitted to all the major publications. Very well penned.
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#3171785 - 02/21/13 09:58 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BlountArrow]
Bayou Buck
10 Point


Registered: 05/11/09
Posts: 2725
Loc: Spring Hill / Perry Co

Offline
Great explanation Bryan. Even in ag areas where the density is pretty high, it can seem alot higher if you are surrounded by a few hundred acres of open fields. Most of the daylight activity will be in the surrounding woodlots which will make anyone who hunts those areas think they have more deer per square mile.
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#3171860 - 02/21/13 11:07 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BlountArrow]
scn
16 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 10449
Loc: Brentwood, TN US

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 Originally Posted By: BlountArrow
Fixed it \:D

Bryan,

That post should be pinned at the top of this forum.

GREAT explanation!

sn


Thanks! Spelling has never been a strong point for me.
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#3171929 - 02/21/13 12:08 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: WRbowhunter]
Rockhound
10 Point


Registered: 04/04/11
Posts: 3091
Loc: Lawrence Co. TN

Offline
It really does vary and depends alot on the person putting the time into finding the deer. We are blessed in being covered up with them and i hope it continues to be that way for man many years. I seen 30 something different bucks this past season no telling how many does and i hunted 4 primary stands all season and 1 of those i only hunted 4 times and only hunted outside of those spots 4 or 5 times. I honestly could leave my house at this very moment and bet good money that i can have a deer of some kind down in an hour or less. I live in a high agriculture area with plenty to eat. Its nothing in early September to ride around within 5 miles of my properties and see a couple hundred deer in bean fields.
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#3172106 - 02/21/13 03:17 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Rockhound]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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The above discription is why those who run a photo census invariably come up with WAY higher deer density figures than what actually exist.

Best estimates for my area are a deer density of 20-25 deer per square mile. Since I own and census 3/4 of a square mile (75% of a square mile), my censuses should find around 15-19 deer. Yet over a 6 month period, I've picked up over 40 unique bucks, and the calculated number of does and fawns greatly exceeds that. In fact, I've come up with calculated deer densities of over 150 deer per square mile.

The standard photo census technique can produce very accurate numbers for unique bucks using the property, as well as local adult sex ratio and fawn recruitment rate numbers. But it absolutely does NOT produce accurate deer density numbers, because deer move around so much over time. Ans the longer you run the census, the wilder the density estimates will get.
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3172113 - 02/21/13 03:27 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1802
Loc: Hickman County, TN

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BSK's point is well taken, especially this time of year when the does and yearlings are bunched up. For example, yesterday evening on the way home from work I counted the deer I saw from the road in the last mile before I got home. There were 22 total in 3 bunches, then 4 in another bunch in my front yard and another 22 in the 6 acre field behind my house for a total of 46. That is a little higher than usual, but I easily average seeing 30 or so every evening this time of year. I don't think that I have an average of over 40 deer per square mile in my overall area of Hickman County especially right after deer season, but this time of year when there is not much for them to eat in the woods they cluster around the fields near my house instead of the few thousand acres of old timber company land.
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#3172124 - 02/21/13 03:34 PM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: woodchuckc]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 18623
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.

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Speaking of deer in fields...I hunt Ames. We have quite a few deer and a bunch of ag fields. We kill quite a few deer out of those fields but no matter what the deer density is hunting pressure can negate that visual aspect. After hunting season has started you're hard pressed to see deer in our fields. Even driving around the place most of the time you can't buy seeing deer in the fields. When I leave our place headed home 60 miles away I see deer in fields the entire trip...almost every trip.
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#3172714 - 02/22/13 05:52 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: TN RDG RNR]
roscopeecotrane
Spike


Registered: 02/09/13
Posts: 29
Loc: Alabama

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I heard the federal government is gonna tax our deer kills by pounds to help fund free pizza, cell phones, and health care for everyone.
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#3172826 - 02/22/13 08:21 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: roscopeecotrane]
Frank G
8 Point


Registered: 12/20/12
Posts: 1409
Loc: Hardin Co, TN Pickwick Lake

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 Originally Posted By: roscopeecotrane
I heard the federal government is gonna tax our deer kills by pounds to help fund free pizza, cell phones, and health care for everyone.

Now there is one I have never heard before.
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#3172914 - 02/22/13 09:40 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: roscopeecotrane]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: roscopeecotrane
I heard the federal government is gonna tax our deer kills by pounds to help fund free pizza, cell phones, and health care for everyone.


Please don't give the vote-buying Dems any more ideas! ;\)
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3172955 - 02/22/13 10:25 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: Mike Belt]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 13547
Loc: Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: Mike Belt
Speaking of deer in fields...I hunt Ames. We have quite a few deer and a bunch of ag fields. We kill quite a few deer out of those fields but no matter what the deer density is hunting pressure can negate that visual aspect. After hunting season has started you're hard pressed to see deer in our fields. Even driving around the place most of the time you can't buy seeing deer in the fields. When I leave our place headed home 60 miles away I see deer in fields the entire trip...almost every trip.


Hopefully, then, you are not hunting the fields..... right?
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#3172957 - 02/22/13 10:25 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
Frank G
8 Point


Registered: 12/20/12
Posts: 1409
Loc: Hardin Co, TN Pickwick Lake

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: roscopeecotrane
I heard the federal government is gonna tax our deer kills by pounds to help fund free pizza, cell phones, and health care for everyone.


Please don't give the vote-buying Dems any more ideas! ;\)


On the hoof estimate, dressed or processed meat (HA)
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#3172984 - 02/22/13 10:40 AM Re: Change In Hunting Reg's? [Re: BSK]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25536
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: roscopeecotrane
I heard the federal government is gonna tax our deer kills by pounds to help fund free pizza, cell phones, and health care for everyone.


Please don't give the vote-buying Dems any more ideas! ;\)
Yes please dont!
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The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!

You wont know,if you dont go!


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