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#3161193 - 02/12/13 02:17 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Bone Collector]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 771
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

Offline
I'd like for someone to show me the language in the bill that prevents your employer from firing you for carrying a gun on their property.

I'll just wait patiently while you guys jump up and down that you are getting something you didn't really get.
_________________________
~DRM~

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#3161199 - 02/12/13 02:22 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: WRbowhunter]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 771
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
To be honest guys I am a little torn on this one. If I owned a business I would want the say so on what is and is not allowed on my property just like a land owner having control of their own property.


Nothing to be torn about... you're taking the correct stand.

This law is nothing but window dressing and pandering... taking 2 minutes to actually read it would make that clear as day.

This law merely protects approx. 400k Tennesseans from CRIMINAL charges, and businesses from civil liabilities.

It does NOT keep you from getting fired for bringing a gun to work when your EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT says you agreed not to bring a gun to work.
_________________________
~DRM~

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#3161264 - 02/12/13 03:08 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: -DRM-]
medic
8 Point


Registered: 09/11/00
Posts: 2302
Loc: Cleveland, TN USA

Offline
 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
To be honest guys I am a little torn on this one. If I owned a business I would want the say so on what is and is not allowed on my property just like a land owner having control of their own property.


Nothing to be torn about... you're taking the correct stand.

This law is nothing but window dressing and pandering... taking 2 minutes to actually read it would make that clear as day.

This law merely protects approx. 400k Tennesseans from CRIMINAL charges, and businesses from civil liabilities.

It does NOT keep you from getting fired for bringing a gun to work when your EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT says you agreed not to bring a gun to work.


Nobody should have say so on what I can carry in my vehicle if it is there legally.
If it means a new job .......so be it.


Edited by medic (02/12/13 03:09 PM)
_________________________
God is great and Life is good.

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#3161289 - 02/12/13 03:25 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: medic]
John Harris
4 Point


Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 283
Loc: Nashville

Offline
Calm Down Folks!

It is a poorly written bill with a lot of holes/traps for those who are legal gun permit holders. I write about the legislation each week (most weeks) on the Tennessee Firearms Association Legislative Action email alert system (TFALAC Alerts) which are free. This is the post I put out on this particular bill!

Tennessee's 2013 Safe Commute Legislation

Time for Phone Calls and Emails

It is good to see that the Safe Commute issue is to be heard on the Senate floor in the format of Lt. Gov. Ron Ramsey's SB0142. The bill is scheduled to be heard in the Senate on February 11, 2013. The House Bill HB0118 is set to be heard this Wednesday in House Civil Justice subcommittee.

The bill as written would generally allow permit holders to store their firearms in their own cars even if parked on the parking lot of another but it has some potential omissions that should be understood and addressed.

These are some of the problems with the bill as it will be presented to you on the floor today that I am asking each of you to consider and address so that when this bill becomes law it will be one that you can be comfortable has minimal risk of criminal prosecution to any Tennessean who merely wants to be safe while commuting:

The bill is limited in Section 1 (proposed 37-17-1313(a)) to a "permit holder’s privately-owned motor vehicle." This language could have the effect of excluding permit holders who are relying on a borrowed car, a family owned car, a parent's car, a leased car or even a temporary rental from protection under this bill. This limitation and trap should be removed.

The bill in Section 1 (proposed 37-17-1313(a)(1)) has a clause that provides that the law would only apply if the car "is parked in a location where it is permitted to be; ...." This clause could form the basis for employers and property owners to effectively "opt out" of the law's scope by posting signs or establishing employment "rules" that vehicles containing firearms can not be parked on the property or can be parked only at specific areas of the property. Another trap here would be for those permit holders who are issued permits for specific parking lots, like at Vanderbilt, and then are found to be parked in an area not covered by the employer's permit - this bill may allow those employees to be criminally prosecuted.

The bill uses the qualifier in Section 1 (proposed 37-17-1313(a)) "Notwithstanding §§ 39-17-1309, 39-17-1311, or § 39-17-1359, . . ." I am concerned that this language may be intended to protect or allow prohibitions under other statutes or that it would not address grand fathered local government restrictions under 39-17-1314 such as apply in Knoxville and Davidson Counties relative to government parking areas and/or locally managed parks.

Another similar loophole to the "notwithstanding" clause could be with the application of criminal trespass doctrines since the "notwithstanding" clause is limited to 3 specific statutes and that list does not include the criminal trespass statute. The point is that the notwithstanding clause has a self-imposed limit and that limit allows the potential for a court to find that numerous other statutes would continue to allow criminal prosecution of permit holders.

The bill in Section 1 (proposed 37-17-1313(a)(2)) does not address "incidental exposure" that could occur while the permit holder is storing the weapon in the car if that occurs on the property. Thus, a security camera or another employee that sees a permit holder placing the weapon in the glove compartment or trunk once on the property might not be protected by the legislation as presently written.

The bill does not preclude an employer from having a "no weapons" policy and firing, terminating or refusing to hire individuals with carry permits or who store their weapons in the parking areas (and consequently denying them both safe commute as well as unemployment benefits or any remedy for wrongful termination.)

The bill would criminalize under state law possession on any federal property that might be restricted. It would be better that Tennessee not bootstrap federal infringements of 2nd Amendment rights and leave the enforcement of any such restrictions to be the financial burden of the federal government.

Although not material to the bill's purpose, the bill has a factual error in the first "whereas" clause which states "WHEREAS, in 1996, Tennesseans were first given the opportunity to apply for and, if meeting the qualifications, be issued a permit to carry a handgun in public;" Tennessee's first civilian handgun permit law was actually passed 2 years earlier in May 1994 under 1994 Tennessee Laws Pub. Ch. 943 (S.B. 2182) and codified at that time at TCA 39-17-1315. It then underwent a significant re-write when the permit process was transferred from the sheriffs (under the 1994 law) to the Department of Safety by subsequent legislation.

If the objective of the bill is to fulfill promises made in the past to permit holders and to the Tennessee Firearms Association, then I would support the general objective. However, I have reservations that the bill has several potential and severe problems that should be carefully considered so that the House's action is well reasoned and understood and not done just to get this issue out of the way.

Senators:
Beavers, Mae 741-2421 sen.mae.beavers@capitol.tn.gov
Bell, Mike 741-1946 sen.mike.bell@capitol.tn.gov
Bowling, Janice 741-6694 sen.janice.bowling@capitol.tn.gov
Burks, Charlotte 741-3978 sen.charlotte.burks@capitol.tn.gov
Campfield, Stacey 741-1766 sen.stacey.campfield@capitol.tn.gov
Crowe, Rusty 741-2468 sen.rusty.crowe@capitol.tn.gov
Dickerson, Steven 741-6679 sen.steven.dickerson@capitol.tn.gov
Finney, Lowe 741-1810 sen.lowe.finney@capitol.tn.gov
Ford, Ophelia 741-1767 sen.ophelia.ford@capitol.tn.gov
Gardenhire, Todd 741-6682 sen.todd.gardenhire@capitol.tn.gov
Green, Mark 741-2374 sen.mark.green@capitol.tn.gov
Gresham, Dolores 741-2368 sen.dolores.gresham@capitol.tn.gov
Haile, Ferrell 741-1999 sen.ferrell.haile@capitol.tn.gov
Harper, Thelma 741-2453 sen.thelma.harper@capitol.tn.gov
Henry, Douglas 741-3291 sen.douglas.henry@capitol.tn.gov
Hensley, Joey 741-3100 sen.joey.hensley@capitol.tn.gov
Johnson, Jack 741-2495 sen.jack.johnson@capitol.tn.gov
Kelsey, Brian 741-3036 sen.brian.kelsey@capitol.tn.gov
Ketron, Bill 741-6853 sen.bill.ketron@capitol.tn.gov
Kyle, Jim 741-4167 sen.jim.kyle@capitol.tn.gov
Massey, Becky Duncan 741-1648 sen.becky.massey@capitol.tn.gov
McNally, Randy 741-6806 sen.randy.mcnally@capitol.tn.gov
Niceley, Frank S. 741-2061 sen.frank.niceley@capitol.tn.gov
Norris, Mark 741-1967 sen.mark.norris@capitol.tn.gov
Overbey, Doug 741-0981 sen.doug.overbey@capitol.tn.gov
Ramsey, Lt. Gov. Ron 741-4524 lt.gov.ron.ramsey@capitol.tn.gov
Southerland, Steve 741-3851 sen.steve.southerland@capitol.tn.gov
Stevens, John 741-4576 sen.john.stevens@capitol.tn.gov
Summerville, Jim 741-4499 sen.jim.summerville@capitol.tn.gov
Tate, Reginald 741-2509 sen.reginald.tate@capitol.tn.gov
Tracy, Jim 741-1066 sen.jim.tracy@capitol.tn.gov
Watson, Bo 741-3227 sen.bo.watson@capitol.tn.gov
Yager, Ken 741-1449 sen.ken.yager@capitol.tn.gov


House Sponsor
Faison, Jeremy 741-6871 rep.jeremy.faison@capitol.tn.gov


House Civil Justice Subcommittee
Carter, Mike 741-3025 rep.mike.carter@capitol.tn.gov
Coley, Jim 741-8201 rep.jim.coley@capitol.tn.gov
Dennis, Vance 741-2190 rep.vance.dennis@capitol.tn.gov
Farmer, Andrew 741-4419 rep.andrew.farmer@capitol.tn.gov
Jones, Sherry 741-2035 rep.sherry.jones@capitol.tn.gov
Lundberg, Jon 741-7623 rep.jon.lundberg@capitol.tn.gov
Stewart, Mike 741-2184 rep.mike.stewart@capitol.tn.gov
Womick, Rick 741-2804 rep.rick.womick@capitol.tn.gov
_________________________
John Harris
_________________________________
Attorney &
Executive Director, Tennessee Firearms Association
both of which support my hunting interests.

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#3161294 - 02/12/13 03:28 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: John Harris]
John Harris
4 Point


Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 283
Loc: Nashville

Offline
If its ok on this forum, I can post where interested people can opt in to receive the TFALAC alerts.
_________________________
John Harris
_________________________________
Attorney &
Executive Director, Tennessee Firearms Association
both of which support my hunting interests.

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#3161371 - 02/12/13 04:32 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: John Harris]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 771
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

Offline
I still disagree with pushing this forward - but thank you for the analysis, John.

I'd be interested in how to opt into the imformational emails, thanks.
_________________________
~DRM~

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#3161954 - 02/13/13 01:44 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: ]
BamaProud
12 Point


Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 6826
Loc: Shelby County, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: LSUtigers
Last year it was anybody; not just HCP owners, I believe this is correct.


You are correct. I would have preferred the original version of the bill. It should apply to any legally possessed firearm in a vehicle.

As I have said it isn't perfect, legislation is rarely perfect, but it is a step in the right direction.
_________________________
Save the Little ones for the Little Ones.
Wine-Down Brewing and Winemaking

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#3162122 - 02/13/13 08:28 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: BamaProud]
John Harris
4 Point


Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 283
Loc: Nashville

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BamaProud
 Originally Posted By: LSUtigers
Last year it was anybody; not just HCP owners, I believe this is correct.


You are correct. I would have preferred the original version of the bill. It should apply to any legally possessed firearm in a vehicle.

As I have said it isn't perfect, legislation is rarely perfect, but it is a step in the right direction.


The bill started off with anybody on the theory that if you legally own and possess it, you should not have to ask permission to keep it in your car. The idea was that there are recreational shooters and even hunters who do not have carry permits and should not be prohibited from having their recreational/sporting/hunting weapons restricted unduly.

It was then amended in the Senate to be limited to permit holders and those holding hunting licenses. It was later agreed, as the bill came through the house, that it would be limited to permit holders only. So, when they say this years bill is "a lot better" than the prior 4 years, do not believe them because there was plenty of time over the last 4 years to introduce the concepts that you see in the 2013 bill.

It is, imho, still a poorly written bill this year with several problems that can be corrected. The question is that although we have brought these problems to the attention of the legislators, they seem to have no interest in addressing these problems. If so, why not?
_________________________
John Harris
_________________________________
Attorney &
Executive Director, Tennessee Firearms Association
both of which support my hunting interests.

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#3163355 - 02/14/13 01:44 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: John Harris]
BamaProud
12 Point


Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 6826
Loc: Shelby County, TN

Offline
Approved by a House subcommittee after a six-minute hearing.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2013/feb/13/tennessee-house-panel-advances-guns-bill-after-6-m/
_________________________
Save the Little ones for the Little Ones.
Wine-Down Brewing and Winemaking

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#3163368 - 02/14/13 04:39 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Bone Collector]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 44870
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

content Online
Ya know, I've been reading and reading along with this thread, and something just came to me. This shouldn't even be an issue to start with imo, but, seems to me, that the ones who think businesses should be allowed to stop citizens from exercising their 2nd A right on their property, are in the same boat as the govt they're complaining about in the first place...restricting the citizens right to keep and bear arms in the first place. Sure, keeping your employees from drinking and smoking can easily fall into the rules and regs for any business...but just seems that any constitutionally minded employer wouldn't have to even think about restricting a constitutional right of his employee(s). In a nutshell(trying anyway ) I believe that when an employer is hiring citizens to work for his company, he's asking the public to come onto his property for the purpose of employment, mutually beneficial for both parties, and shouldn't restrict their right to keep and bear arms...although again, he/she would have that right I do believe, he/she would also be more of a liberal mind than of a conservative one, ie govt minded. JMO FWIW
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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