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#3160564 - 02/12/13 04:05 AM Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil
BamaProud
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Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 7326
Loc: Shelby County, TN

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It is expected to pass the house Will go into effect July 1 unless something unforeseen happens.


...I would still like to see this bill include any legally possessed gun instead of just permit holders, but at least its something.

A win for the Good Guys!


Edited by BamaProud (02/12/13 04:22 AM)
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#3160565 - 02/12/13 04:09 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: BamaProud]
Bowdacious
Skillet
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Registered: 09/01/00
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Thank goodness! I feel quite vulnerable at times on the way to work and in the dark parking lot. I used to feel safe when I arrived until we had a person(now unemployed)make threats.
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#3160577 - 02/12/13 04:49 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Bowdacious]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
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Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

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Yes!
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#3160610 - 02/12/13 05:49 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: MUP]
Rackseeker
12 Point


Registered: 09/26/02
Posts: 5799
Loc: Franklin County

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I'd like to hear if there are any Nissan employees on here and how Nissan is going to handle this. Does this include them or does being a foreign trade zone get them out of it.
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#3160613 - 02/12/13 06:01 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Rackseeker]
ferg
Cancer Free
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Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 16231
Loc: At the TNDeer shirt factory %^...

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This is a start - but the wording on this bill leaves a bit to be desired - it should be 'all cars' not just 'personally owned' it should be 'all people' not just permit holders etc etc -
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#3160621 - 02/12/13 06:17 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: ferg]
REM7
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Registered: 08/19/08
Posts: 3974
Loc: GRUNDY COUNTY

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Hopefully a step in the right direction
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#3160622 - 02/12/13 06:22 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Rackseeker]
EastTNHunter
10 Point


Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 3131
Loc: Rhea Co., TN

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 Originally Posted By: Rackseeker
I'd like to hear if there are any Nissan employees on here and how Nissan is going to handle this. Does this include them or does being a foreign trade zone get them out of it.


That was my question for them and Volkswagen as well.

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#3160629 - 02/12/13 06:33 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: EastTNHunter]
BamaProud
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Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 7326
Loc: Shelby County, TN

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The bill includes a process for a company/business to get a waiver from the law. They have to prove to the state Department of Safety that there are "special circumstances" at their business that makes allowing HCP holders keeping guns in parking lots a bad idea. ...sounds hard to prove IMO.
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#3160709 - 02/12/13 08:01 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: BamaProud]
WRbowhunter
8 Point


Registered: 02/22/10
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To be honest guys I am a little torn on this one. If I owned a business I would want the say so on what is and is not allowed on my property just like a land owner having control of their own property.
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#3160724 - 02/12/13 08:15 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: WRbowhunter]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 3522
Loc: Franklin County

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What irritates me about this whole concealed carry permit issue is that the only people who are going to even apply for one are the people who will never cause trouble in the 1st place. It's like any law designed to protect us from evil guns. The law abiding cooperate and the criminals ignore it. The 2nd Amendment doesn't say anything about giving us the priveledge to bear arms IF the state decides you can and that you can only bear arms in this place but not that place. We've already lost a lot of the intended liberty our founders wanted and accept it as OK.

But, as several of you stated, this is a step in the right direction. I don't think I have a snowballs chance in he!! of my employer allowing gun to be carried in any shape or form though. \:\(

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#3160745 - 02/12/13 08:32 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Hunter 257W]
Diehard Hunter
CRAMP
12 Point


Registered: 08/01/08
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Glad to see it, but there will be many on my campus that will pitch a fit when they find out! I am surrounded by so many educated people that have lost all ability to think and reason.
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#3160754 - 02/12/13 08:36 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Diehard Hunter]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2835
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

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Not to distract the conversation, but did they try to pass this last year and did it fail at some point? Lastly, does anyone know if the wording allows it on federally owned property?
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#3160770 - 02/12/13 08:47 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: BlountArrow]
Diehard Hunter
CRAMP
12 Point


Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 6980
Loc: East Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: BlountArrow
Not to distract the conversation, but did they try to pass this last year and did it fail at some point? Lastly, does anyone know if the wording allows it on federally owned property?


It states anywhere the permit holder is legally allowed to be, except where firearms are prohibited by federal law, like oak ridge and TVA nuclear facilities.

The law they tried to pass last year was to allow college employees to carry on campus if I am not mistaken. It may have been a couple of years ago. Either way, this one backs off the carry into the building idea and allows you to have a gun in your vehicle on campus, locked away out of sight.
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#3160815 - 02/12/13 09:34 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Diehard Hunter]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1802
Loc: Hickman County, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
 Originally Posted By: BlountArrow
Not to distract the conversation, but did they try to pass this last year and did it fail at some point? Lastly, does anyone know if the wording allows it on federally owned property?


It states anywhere the permit holder is legally allowed to be, except where firearms are prohibited by federal law, like oak ridge and TVA nuclear facilities.

The law they tried to pass last year was to allow college employees to carry on campus if I am not mistaken. It may have been a couple of years ago. Either way, this one backs off the carry into the building idea and allows you to have a gun in your vehicle on campus, locked away out of sight.


Yeah, it is really going to help me to have my gun locked in my car in the parking lot 1/2 mile away when some lunatic busts into my classroom and starts shooting while I'm giving a lecture to 150 students. I guess I could politely ask him to stop while I go get my gun, or just throw some dry erase markers and board erasers at him as they are the only "weapons" I'm allowed. Don't get me wrong, this is a small step in the right direction but I am afraid that once this passes and becomes law, many lawmakers will pat themselves on the back and think the job of restoring ALL of our rights to carry and protect ourselves is done.

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#3160823 - 02/12/13 09:39 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: woodchuckc]
Bowdacious
Skillet
16 Point


Registered: 09/01/00
Posts: 16350
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I for one, am glad it's making its way thru. I am most vulnerable traveling to work. Now I will have the means to protect myself if need be.
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#3160892 - 02/12/13 10:28 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: WRbowhunter]
Redfred16
8 Point


Registered: 01/22/12
Posts: 1411
Loc: Hartland, WI

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 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
To be honest guys I am a little torn on this one. If I owned a business I would want the say so on what is and is not allowed on my property just like a land owner having control of their own property.


No more than a person telling another what they can keep in thier personal property.
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#3160978 - 02/12/13 11:24 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Diehard Hunter]
EastTNHunter
10 Point


Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 3131
Loc: Rhea Co., TN

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 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
Glad to see it, but there will be many on my campus that will pitch a fit when they find out! I am surrounded by so many educated people that have lost all ability to think and reason.


As Jerry Clower would say, "educated beyond their intelligence."

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#3160989 - 02/12/13 11:31 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: EastTNHunter]
Trapper John
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/13/99
Posts: 11888
Loc: Murfreesboro,TN/Decaturville, ...

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Glad they're doing it. However, it'll have little effect on me. I park in a public garage and walk to the office. I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving my weapon in that location.

Nice to know of the option, though.

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#3161117 - 02/12/13 01:12 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: WRbowhunter]
1908_Cubbies
4 Point


Registered: 08/10/09
Posts: 328
Loc: Tullahoma, TN

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 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
To be honest guys I am a little torn on this one. If I owned a business I would want the say so on what is and is not allowed on my property just like a land owner having control of their own property.


There is already government say about your property if you have a business... You can't allow smoking inside. You can't ban races, genders or homos. You have to comply with ADA. Simple fact is, when you own a business, you don't have full control of your property.

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#3161141 - 02/12/13 01:33 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: WRbowhunter]
Bone Collector
14 Point


Registered: 09/09/09
Posts: 9646
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN

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 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
To be honest guys I am a little torn on this one. If I owned a business I would want the say so on what is and is not allowed on my property just like a land owner having control of their own property.


the issue is that you may be employed with one of these companies and have to go to work to do your duties. However you will leave at some point. seems to me if you have the permit you should be allowed to carry in your car. Why should you have to leave your gun at home, everytime you go to work. we spend most of our time at our jobs, so it makes the permit less useful when you tell someone no guns on the premisses. Whats in your car is your business.
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#3161193 - 02/12/13 02:17 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Bone Collector]
-DRM-
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Registered: 08/21/12
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I'd like for someone to show me the language in the bill that prevents your employer from firing you for carrying a gun on their property.

I'll just wait patiently while you guys jump up and down that you are getting something you didn't really get.
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#3161199 - 02/12/13 02:22 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: WRbowhunter]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

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 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
To be honest guys I am a little torn on this one. If I owned a business I would want the say so on what is and is not allowed on my property just like a land owner having control of their own property.


Nothing to be torn about... you're taking the correct stand.

This law is nothing but window dressing and pandering... taking 2 minutes to actually read it would make that clear as day.

This law merely protects approx. 400k Tennesseans from CRIMINAL charges, and businesses from civil liabilities.

It does NOT keep you from getting fired for bringing a gun to work when your EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT says you agreed not to bring a gun to work.
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#3161264 - 02/12/13 03:08 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: -DRM-]
medic
8 Point


Registered: 09/11/00
Posts: 2342
Loc: Cleveland, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
To be honest guys I am a little torn on this one. If I owned a business I would want the say so on what is and is not allowed on my property just like a land owner having control of their own property.


Nothing to be torn about... you're taking the correct stand.

This law is nothing but window dressing and pandering... taking 2 minutes to actually read it would make that clear as day.

This law merely protects approx. 400k Tennesseans from CRIMINAL charges, and businesses from civil liabilities.

It does NOT keep you from getting fired for bringing a gun to work when your EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT says you agreed not to bring a gun to work.


Nobody should have say so on what I can carry in my vehicle if it is there legally.
If it means a new job .......so be it.


Edited by medic (02/12/13 03:09 PM)
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#3161289 - 02/12/13 03:25 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: medic]
John Harris
4 Point


Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Nashville

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Calm Down Folks!

It is a poorly written bill with a lot of holes/traps for those who are legal gun permit holders. I write about the legislation each week (most weeks) on the Tennessee Firearms Association Legislative Action email alert system (TFALAC Alerts) which are free. This is the post I put out on this particular bill!

Tennessee's 2013 Safe Commute Legislation

Time for Phone Calls and Emails

It is good to see that the Safe Commute issue is to be heard on the Senate floor in the format of Lt. Gov. Ron Ramsey's SB0142. The bill is scheduled to be heard in the Senate on February 11, 2013. The House Bill HB0118 is set to be heard this Wednesday in House Civil Justice subcommittee.

The bill as written would generally allow permit holders to store their firearms in their own cars even if parked on the parking lot of another but it has some potential omissions that should be understood and addressed.

These are some of the problems with the bill as it will be presented to you on the floor today that I am asking each of you to consider and address so that when this bill becomes law it will be one that you can be comfortable has minimal risk of criminal prosecution to any Tennessean who merely wants to be safe while commuting:

The bill is limited in Section 1 (proposed 37-17-1313(a)) to a "permit holder’s privately-owned motor vehicle." This language could have the effect of excluding permit holders who are relying on a borrowed car, a family owned car, a parent's car, a leased car or even a temporary rental from protection under this bill. This limitation and trap should be removed.

The bill in Section 1 (proposed 37-17-1313(a)(1)) has a clause that provides that the law would only apply if the car "is parked in a location where it is permitted to be; ...." This clause could form the basis for employers and property owners to effectively "opt out" of the law's scope by posting signs or establishing employment "rules" that vehicles containing firearms can not be parked on the property or can be parked only at specific areas of the property. Another trap here would be for those permit holders who are issued permits for specific parking lots, like at Vanderbilt, and then are found to be parked in an area not covered by the employer's permit - this bill may allow those employees to be criminally prosecuted.

The bill uses the qualifier in Section 1 (proposed 37-17-1313(a)) "Notwithstanding §§ 39-17-1309, 39-17-1311, or § 39-17-1359, . . ." I am concerned that this language may be intended to protect or allow prohibitions under other statutes or that it would not address grand fathered local government restrictions under 39-17-1314 such as apply in Knoxville and Davidson Counties relative to government parking areas and/or locally managed parks.

Another similar loophole to the "notwithstanding" clause could be with the application of criminal trespass doctrines since the "notwithstanding" clause is limited to 3 specific statutes and that list does not include the criminal trespass statute. The point is that the notwithstanding clause has a self-imposed limit and that limit allows the potential for a court to find that numerous other statutes would continue to allow criminal prosecution of permit holders.

The bill in Section 1 (proposed 37-17-1313(a)(2)) does not address "incidental exposure" that could occur while the permit holder is storing the weapon in the car if that occurs on the property. Thus, a security camera or another employee that sees a permit holder placing the weapon in the glove compartment or trunk once on the property might not be protected by the legislation as presently written.

The bill does not preclude an employer from having a "no weapons" policy and firing, terminating or refusing to hire individuals with carry permits or who store their weapons in the parking areas (and consequently denying them both safe commute as well as unemployment benefits or any remedy for wrongful termination.)

The bill would criminalize under state law possession on any federal property that might be restricted. It would be better that Tennessee not bootstrap federal infringements of 2nd Amendment rights and leave the enforcement of any such restrictions to be the financial burden of the federal government.

Although not material to the bill's purpose, the bill has a factual error in the first "whereas" clause which states "WHEREAS, in 1996, Tennesseans were first given the opportunity to apply for and, if meeting the qualifications, be issued a permit to carry a handgun in public;" Tennessee's first civilian handgun permit law was actually passed 2 years earlier in May 1994 under 1994 Tennessee Laws Pub. Ch. 943 (S.B. 2182) and codified at that time at TCA 39-17-1315. It then underwent a significant re-write when the permit process was transferred from the sheriffs (under the 1994 law) to the Department of Safety by subsequent legislation.

If the objective of the bill is to fulfill promises made in the past to permit holders and to the Tennessee Firearms Association, then I would support the general objective. However, I have reservations that the bill has several potential and severe problems that should be carefully considered so that the House's action is well reasoned and understood and not done just to get this issue out of the way.

Senators:
Beavers, Mae 741-2421 sen.mae.beavers@capitol.tn.gov
Bell, Mike 741-1946 sen.mike.bell@capitol.tn.gov
Bowling, Janice 741-6694 sen.janice.bowling@capitol.tn.gov
Burks, Charlotte 741-3978 sen.charlotte.burks@capitol.tn.gov
Campfield, Stacey 741-1766 sen.stacey.campfield@capitol.tn.gov
Crowe, Rusty 741-2468 sen.rusty.crowe@capitol.tn.gov
Dickerson, Steven 741-6679 sen.steven.dickerson@capitol.tn.gov
Finney, Lowe 741-1810 sen.lowe.finney@capitol.tn.gov
Ford, Ophelia 741-1767 sen.ophelia.ford@capitol.tn.gov
Gardenhire, Todd 741-6682 sen.todd.gardenhire@capitol.tn.gov
Green, Mark 741-2374 sen.mark.green@capitol.tn.gov
Gresham, Dolores 741-2368 sen.dolores.gresham@capitol.tn.gov
Haile, Ferrell 741-1999 sen.ferrell.haile@capitol.tn.gov
Harper, Thelma 741-2453 sen.thelma.harper@capitol.tn.gov
Henry, Douglas 741-3291 sen.douglas.henry@capitol.tn.gov
Hensley, Joey 741-3100 sen.joey.hensley@capitol.tn.gov
Johnson, Jack 741-2495 sen.jack.johnson@capitol.tn.gov
Kelsey, Brian 741-3036 sen.brian.kelsey@capitol.tn.gov
Ketron, Bill 741-6853 sen.bill.ketron@capitol.tn.gov
Kyle, Jim 741-4167 sen.jim.kyle@capitol.tn.gov
Massey, Becky Duncan 741-1648 sen.becky.massey@capitol.tn.gov
McNally, Randy 741-6806 sen.randy.mcnally@capitol.tn.gov
Niceley, Frank S. 741-2061 sen.frank.niceley@capitol.tn.gov
Norris, Mark 741-1967 sen.mark.norris@capitol.tn.gov
Overbey, Doug 741-0981 sen.doug.overbey@capitol.tn.gov
Ramsey, Lt. Gov. Ron 741-4524 lt.gov.ron.ramsey@capitol.tn.gov
Southerland, Steve 741-3851 sen.steve.southerland@capitol.tn.gov
Stevens, John 741-4576 sen.john.stevens@capitol.tn.gov
Summerville, Jim 741-4499 sen.jim.summerville@capitol.tn.gov
Tate, Reginald 741-2509 sen.reginald.tate@capitol.tn.gov
Tracy, Jim 741-1066 sen.jim.tracy@capitol.tn.gov
Watson, Bo 741-3227 sen.bo.watson@capitol.tn.gov
Yager, Ken 741-1449 sen.ken.yager@capitol.tn.gov


House Sponsor
Faison, Jeremy 741-6871 rep.jeremy.faison@capitol.tn.gov


House Civil Justice Subcommittee
Carter, Mike 741-3025 rep.mike.carter@capitol.tn.gov
Coley, Jim 741-8201 rep.jim.coley@capitol.tn.gov
Dennis, Vance 741-2190 rep.vance.dennis@capitol.tn.gov
Farmer, Andrew 741-4419 rep.andrew.farmer@capitol.tn.gov
Jones, Sherry 741-2035 rep.sherry.jones@capitol.tn.gov
Lundberg, Jon 741-7623 rep.jon.lundberg@capitol.tn.gov
Stewart, Mike 741-2184 rep.mike.stewart@capitol.tn.gov
Womick, Rick 741-2804 rep.rick.womick@capitol.tn.gov
_________________________
John Harris
_________________________________
Attorney &
Executive Director, Tennessee Firearms Association
both of which support my hunting interests.

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#3161294 - 02/12/13 03:28 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: John Harris]
John Harris
4 Point


Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Nashville

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If its ok on this forum, I can post where interested people can opt in to receive the TFALAC alerts.
_________________________
John Harris
_________________________________
Attorney &
Executive Director, Tennessee Firearms Association
both of which support my hunting interests.

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#3161371 - 02/12/13 04:32 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: John Harris]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

Offline
I still disagree with pushing this forward - but thank you for the analysis, John.

I'd be interested in how to opt into the imformational emails, thanks.
_________________________
~DRM~

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#3161954 - 02/13/13 01:44 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: ]
BamaProud
12 Point


Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 7326
Loc: Shelby County, TN

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 Originally Posted By: LSUtigers
Last year it was anybody; not just HCP owners, I believe this is correct.


You are correct. I would have preferred the original version of the bill. It should apply to any legally possessed firearm in a vehicle.

As I have said it isn't perfect, legislation is rarely perfect, but it is a step in the right direction.
_________________________
Save the Little ones for the Little Ones.
Wine-Down Brewing and Winemaking

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#3162122 - 02/13/13 08:28 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: BamaProud]
John Harris
4 Point


Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Nashville

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 Originally Posted By: BamaProud
 Originally Posted By: LSUtigers
Last year it was anybody; not just HCP owners, I believe this is correct.


You are correct. I would have preferred the original version of the bill. It should apply to any legally possessed firearm in a vehicle.

As I have said it isn't perfect, legislation is rarely perfect, but it is a step in the right direction.


The bill started off with anybody on the theory that if you legally own and possess it, you should not have to ask permission to keep it in your car. The idea was that there are recreational shooters and even hunters who do not have carry permits and should not be prohibited from having their recreational/sporting/hunting weapons restricted unduly.

It was then amended in the Senate to be limited to permit holders and those holding hunting licenses. It was later agreed, as the bill came through the house, that it would be limited to permit holders only. So, when they say this years bill is "a lot better" than the prior 4 years, do not believe them because there was plenty of time over the last 4 years to introduce the concepts that you see in the 2013 bill.

It is, imho, still a poorly written bill this year with several problems that can be corrected. The question is that although we have brought these problems to the attention of the legislators, they seem to have no interest in addressing these problems. If so, why not?
_________________________
John Harris
_________________________________
Attorney &
Executive Director, Tennessee Firearms Association
both of which support my hunting interests.

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#3163355 - 02/14/13 01:44 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: John Harris]
BamaProud
12 Point


Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 7326
Loc: Shelby County, TN

Offline
Approved by a House subcommittee after a six-minute hearing.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2013/feb/13/tennessee-house-panel-advances-guns-bill-after-6-m/
_________________________
Save the Little ones for the Little Ones.
Wine-Down Brewing and Winemaking

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#3163368 - 02/14/13 04:39 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Bone Collector]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46480
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
Ya know, I've been reading and reading along with this thread, and something just came to me. This shouldn't even be an issue to start with imo, but, seems to me, that the ones who think businesses should be allowed to stop citizens from exercising their 2nd A right on their property, are in the same boat as the govt they're complaining about in the first place...restricting the citizens right to keep and bear arms in the first place. Sure, keeping your employees from drinking and smoking can easily fall into the rules and regs for any business...but just seems that any constitutionally minded employer wouldn't have to even think about restricting a constitutional right of his employee(s). In a nutshell(trying anyway ) I believe that when an employer is hiring citizens to work for his company, he's asking the public to come onto his property for the purpose of employment, mutually beneficial for both parties, and shouldn't restrict their right to keep and bear arms...although again, he/she would have that right I do believe, he/she would also be more of a liberal mind than of a conservative one, ie govt minded. JMO FWIW
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3163581 - 02/14/13 08:17 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: MUP]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: MUP
I believe that when an employer is hiring citizens to work for his company, he's asking the public to come onto his property for the purpose of employment, mutually beneficial for both parties, and shouldn't restrict their right to keep and bear arms...although again, he/she would have that right I do believe, he/she would also be more of a liberal mind than of a conservative one, ie govt minded. JMO FWIW


Wow...

So because you want to force a property owner - by power of the government - to let you bring something on to THEIR property...

your position is conservative.

And because I want the government to stay OUT of this, and let property owners control their own property rights...

my position is liberal?


Some of you truly amaze me with the lies you are willing to tell yourself to get what you want.
_________________________
~DRM~

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#3163583 - 02/14/13 08:19 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: -DRM-]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

Offline
So John, you admit the bill does not protect an employee from being fired. It ONLY covers permit holders (so much for this being a freedom issue), along with half a dozen other problems with the wording...

Why are you not advocating that this bill be pulled on principle alone?
_________________________
~DRM~

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#3163601 - 02/14/13 08:40 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: -DRM-]
John Harris
4 Point


Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Nashville

Offline
 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
So John, you admit the bill does not protect an employee from being fired. It ONLY covers permit holders (so much for this being a freedom issue), along with half a dozen other problems with the wording...

Why are you not advocating that this bill be pulled on principle alone?


I am trying to persuade legislators and enlist the support of other voters to understand that the bill has serious flaws and should be addressed before they rush to make it law.

On the property rights issue, I wrestled with that myself. I have considered the federal appellate cases which specifically looked at that issue (a case called Ramsey Winch) after the law was passed in Oklahoma about 6 years ago. The federal government found that this is a balancing a rights (real property rights, personal property rights (i.e., the contents of the car), and self-defense/2nd Amendment rights) and that there is not a material or unconstitutional violation of any real property rights or even a "taking" because any infringement is minimal to non-existent. That same opinion was adopted by the Tennessee Attorney General in 2012 when the Senate Judiciary asked for a review of the proposed legislation then.

In addition, the court of appeals noted that real property rights (particularly commercial/business property) are actually heavily regulated with zoning, land use, aesthetics, ADA, and other government infringements.

The court also noted that since most states adopt a civilian carry law at least with the belief or statement that allowing citizens to carry firearms has a proven deterrent effect on generalized and specific crime, that such laws also fall within the state's police powers. Thus, allowing a private property owner to "nullify" a police power of the state was seen as unwarranted under the law just as a property owner could not declare rape or murder laws "void" on their properties.
_________________________
John Harris
_________________________________
Attorney &
Executive Director, Tennessee Firearms Association
both of which support my hunting interests.

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#3163611 - 02/14/13 08:46 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: -DRM-]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46480
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
 Originally Posted By: MUP
I believe that when an employer is hiring citizens to work for his company, he's asking the public to come onto his property for the purpose of employment, mutually beneficial for both parties, and shouldn't restrict their right to keep and bear arms...although again, he/she would have that right I do believe, he/she would also be more of a liberal mind than of a conservative one, ie govt minded. JMO FWIW


Wow...

So because you want to force a property owner - by power of the government - to let you bring something on to THEIR property...

your position is conservative.

And because I want the government to stay OUT of this, and let property owners control their own property rights...

my position is liberal?


Some of you truly amaze me with the lies you are willing to tell yourself to get what you want.


I'm not trying to force anybody to do anything. If you'll read my post you will see that I said it's their right to do whatever they wish. But, if they deny their employees the right to keep and bear arms on their property, they are essentially doing just as the govt, overriding the Constitution. I just think, that if someone is preaching constitutionality, then saying that citizens can't exercise their 2A right at their place of business, as an employee, it's hypocritical.
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3163661 - 02/14/13 09:15 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: MUP]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: MUP
I'm not trying to force anybody to do anything.


If you support a law such as the one above, yes - you are forcing a property owner to do something he does not want to do with his property.

 Quote:
But, if they deny their employees the right to keep and bear arms on their property,


Yet again, you seem confused as to what the Constitution and Amendments actually are.

They are a contract between YOU and your GOVERNMENT.
They are NOT a contract between you and a property owner.

Simply put: a property owner is not and can not "deny the right to keep and bear arms" - as no such right exists in the relationship between you and that property owner.

This is basic concept stuff here, yet so many people are confused about it.

Even if it were an applicable concept, it is still a flawed view in that you are not being FORCED to be on their property in the first place. If you are not forced to be on their property, it is absurd to claim they forced you to be on their property unarmed.

Again, this is basic concept stuff here people... not rocket science.
_________________________
~DRM~

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#3163671 - 02/14/13 09:24 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: John Harris]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: John Harris

On the property rights issue, I wrestled with that myself. I have considered the federal appellate cases which specifically looked at that issue (a case called Ramsey Winch) after the law was passed in Oklahoma about 6 years ago. The federal government found that this is a balancing a rights (real property rights, personal property rights (i.e., the contents of the car), and self-defense/2nd Amendment rights) and that there is not a material or unconstitutional violation of any real property rights or even a "taking" because any infringement is minimal to non-existent. That same opinion was adopted by the Tennessee Attorney General in 2012 when the Senate Judiciary asked for a review of the proposed legislation then.

In addition, the court of appeals noted that real property rights (particularly commercial/business property) are actually heavily regulated with zoning, land use, aesthetics, ADA, and other government infringements.

The court also noted that since most states adopt a civilian carry law at least with the belief or statement that allowing citizens to carry firearms has a proven deterrent effect on generalized and specific crime, that such laws also fall within the state's police powers. Thus, allowing a private property owner to "nullify" a police power of the state was seen as unwarranted under the law just as a property owner could not declare rape or murder laws "void" on their properties.


With all due respect, John - what this says to me is you wrestled with it until you found enough legal-ease and court cases to justify what you *want*, even though in your heart you know what I am saying is true: You are forcing a property owner to give up their rights to control their property so you can get what you want, by force of the government.

And to be clear - forcing a property owner to give up their rights by force of the government is sometimes a necessity... eminent domain being one such example. But in this case - I think there are other solutions that do not trample on the rights of property owners.

Providing legal protections for property owners - included in this bill - is a GOOD step that does not trample on rights.

Removing criminal charges from the equation when someone has a gun on someone else's property, and leaving the property owner with the same recourse I have were you to bring a gun on to my property - I can ask you to leave... that would be a GOOD step that does not take away anyone's rights.

Creating a law that employers would have to PROVE you had a gun on their property for them to terminate you with cause - that would be a good step that does not take away anyone's rights.

My point is - there are other ways to skin this cat that don't involve stripping a property owner of control of their own property.
_________________________
~DRM~

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#3163676 - 02/14/13 09:29 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: -DRM-]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46480
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
The company and the employee have an agreement for employment. I still don't see why there is an issue with the employees carrying in the first place. Again, they(the co.) absolutely have the right to do as they please concerning their property, but I just don't see why any business would actually deny that constitutional right to begin with. Not a question of forcing anyone to do anything. Oh, and on the bill that just passed, it shouldn't have come to this in the first place imo.
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3163686 - 02/14/13 09:38 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: MUP]
TNGunsmoke
8 Point


Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1428
Loc: Jackson,TN

Offline
I don't know about every employer, but I do know the reasoning where I work for why employees are denied their carry rights. Several years ago, they had a supervisor who had a carry permit, and used the sidearm on his waist to intimidate the guys working under him. He was reprimanded, and policy was then changed to disallow the carry of arms while at work. As far as them being in your parked vehicle on their lot, it is prohibited, but it is don't ask don't tell and as long as their isn't a problem, as far as they are concerned, it isn't there.
_________________________
You can't fix stupid.....

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#3163700 - 02/14/13 09:46 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: TNGunsmoke]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2835
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

Offline
 Originally Posted By: TNGunsmoke
I don't know about every employer, but I do know the reasoning where I work for why employees are denied their carry rights. Several years ago, they had a supervisor who had a carry permit, and used the sidearm on his waist to intimidate the guys working under him. He was reprimanded...


First, he should have been fired for intimidation tactics. Second, might have got the same reaction with a 12" Bowie Knife so let's not blame the gun (not saying you did).

Gentlemen, I'm enjoying the posts and the education. I hope it stays professional.
_________________________
"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
-Ronald Firbank

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#3163716 - 02/14/13 10:04 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: MUP]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: MUP
I just don't see why any business would actually deny that constitutional right to begin with.


Does this place have the little emoticon where the guy is banging is head against the wall? It is needed here.

The business is not denying your constitutional right!
_________________________
~DRM~

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#3163750 - 02/14/13 10:41 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: -DRM-]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1802
Loc: Hickman County, TN

Offline
Regarding property rights, I was under the impression that your car is your property, no matter where it is parked, and what is inside it is your property as well. It seems that some are inferring that when your car, with its contents, is parked in your employer's parking lot it ceases to be your property and becomes your employer's. I'm sure that there are a number of things besides guns that employers prohibit from being brought into the workplace that people sometimes have in their cars because they used them before or will use them after work.


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#3163789 - 02/14/13 11:06 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: woodchuckc]
John Harris
4 Point


Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Nashville

Offline
 Originally Posted By: woodchuckc
Regarding property rights, I was under the impression that your car is your property, no matter where it is parked, and what is inside it is your property as well. It seems that some are inferring that when your car, with its contents, is parked in your employer's parking lot it ceases to be your property and becomes your employer's. I'm sure that there are a number of things besides guns that employers prohibit from being brought into the workplace that people sometimes have in their cars because they used them before or will use them after work.



This is a good point. It is interesting that during the 2012 legislative hearings, Federal Express had a representative who testified in the Senate. The video is still available on the legislative website and, if not, I have a copy. Anyhow, the Federal Express representative testified that they could, as the property owner, prohibit employees from having even Bibles in their cars. The point is that Federal Express and others opposing this law in the past have asserted that once anyone crosses the property line that the owner/renter/manager has all rights to declare what is and is not allowable on the property.

While I agree that real property owners have a lot of rights regarding what use to make of the property, once a use is selected that involves allowing others to come onto the property some of those "owners" rights are constrained by a wide variety of laws and I would agree that too many laws are imposed on property owners and limits on the uses.

Where the courts (as opposed to legislatures) have worked to find balance is where activity on property has an identifiable impact on the rights of others off the property. Thus, there are nuisance laws that limit what one property owner can do (such as a pig farm) if it materially impacts the adjoining ability of adjoining property owners to reasonably use their land.

Thus, the issue for me is not absolute control over real property which is merely an illusion but the balance between the rights of the real property owner, the personal property (car) owner relative to contents, and the right of self-defense which in my mind has a higher priority to any property right.
_________________________
John Harris
_________________________________
Attorney &
Executive Director, Tennessee Firearms Association
both of which support my hunting interests.

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#3163805 - 02/14/13 11:15 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Hunter 257W]
easy45
Non-Typical


Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 30563
Loc: Chester County

Offline
cool
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Work to live, Live to hunt

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#3163826 - 02/14/13 11:27 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: John Harris]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1802
Loc: Hickman County, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: John Harris
 Originally Posted By: woodchuckc
Regarding property rights, I was under the impression that your car is your property, no matter where it is parked, and what is inside it is your property as well. It seems that some are inferring that when your car, with its contents, is parked in your employer's parking lot it ceases to be your property and becomes your employer's. I'm sure that there are a number of things besides guns that employers prohibit from being brought into the workplace that people sometimes have in their cars because they used them before or will use them after work.



This is a good point. It is interesting that during the 2012 legislative hearings, Federal Express had a representative who testified in the Senate. The video is still available on the legislative website and, if not, I have a copy. Anyhow, the Federal Express representative testified that they could, as the property owner, prohibit employees from having even Bibles in their cars. The point is that Federal Express and others opposing this law in the past have asserted that once anyone crosses the property line that the owner/renter/manager has all rights to declare what is and is not allowable on the property.

While I agree that real property owners have a lot of rights regarding what use to make of the property, once a use is selected that involves allowing others to come onto the property some of those "owners" rights are constrained by a wide variety of laws and I would agree that too many laws are imposed on property owners and limits on the uses.

Where the courts (as opposed to legislatures) have worked to find balance is where activity on property has an identifiable impact on the rights of others off the property. Thus, there are nuisance laws that limit what one property owner can do (such as a pig farm) if it materially impacts the adjoining ability of adjoining property owners to reasonably use their land.

Thus, the issue for me is not absolute control over real property which is merely an illusion but the balance between the rights of the real property owner, the personal property (car) owner relative to contents, and the right of self-defense which in my mind has a higher priority to any property right.


You brought up a pertinent example with FedEx and their stance of having a Bible in their car. It would seem that the exact same issue of Constitutionality would apply (just different Amendments). Do employers have the right to enact an absolute prohibition of having a Bible (or Torah or Quran or prayer rug) in the car or just one laying on the dashboard or seat of the car (i.e., visible to someone from outside the car)? Would it infringe on an employee's right to freedom of speech/expression or freedom of religion to be forbidden to have a Bible in your car even if locked in your glovebox or trunk, like a gun would be?

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#3163833 - 02/14/13 11:30 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: woodchuckc]
Redfred16
8 Point


Registered: 01/22/12
Posts: 1411
Loc: Hartland, WI

Offline
 Originally Posted By: woodchuckc
 Originally Posted By: John Harris
 Originally Posted By: woodchuckc
Regarding property rights, I was under the impression that your car is your property, no matter where it is parked, and what is inside it is your property as well. It seems that some are inferring that when your car, with its contents, is parked in your employer's parking lot it ceases to be your property and becomes your employer's. I'm sure that there are a number of things besides guns that employers prohibit from being brought into the workplace that people sometimes have in their cars because they used them before or will use them after work.



This is a good point. It is interesting that during the 2012 legislative hearings, Federal Express had a representative who testified in the Senate. The video is still available on the legislative website and, if not, I have a copy. Anyhow, the Federal Express representative testified that they could, as the property owner, prohibit employees from having even Bibles in their cars. The point is that Federal Express and others opposing this law in the past have asserted that once anyone crosses the property line that the owner/renter/manager has all rights to declare what is and is not allowable on the property.

While I agree that real property owners have a lot of rights regarding what use to make of the property, once a use is selected that involves allowing others to come onto the property some of those "owners" rights are constrained by a wide variety of laws and I would agree that too many laws are imposed on property owners and limits on the uses.

Where the courts (as opposed to legislatures) have worked to find balance is where activity on property has an identifiable impact on the rights of others off the property. Thus, there are nuisance laws that limit what one property owner can do (such as a pig farm) if it materially impacts the adjoining ability of adjoining property owners to reasonably use their land.

Thus, the issue for me is not absolute control over real property which is merely an illusion but the balance between the rights of the real property owner, the personal property (car) owner relative to contents, and the right of self-defense which in my mind has a higher priority to any property right.


You brought up a pertinent example with FedEx and their stance of having a Bible in their car. It would seem that the exact same issue of Constitutionality would apply (just different Amendments). Do employers have the right to enact an absolute prohibition of having a Bible (or Torah or Quran or prayer rug) in the car or just one laying on the dashboard or seat of the car (i.e., visible to someone from outside the car)? Would it infringe on an employee's right to freedom of speech/expression or freedom of religion to be forbidden to have a Bible in your car even if locked in your glovebox or trunk, like a gun would be?


The same could be said for bummer stickers. Can they restrict the 1st Amendment just cause you work for them and the vehicle is parked on thier property?
_________________________
Packer Fan back in Packer Country

"Recon Ready"
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#3163839 - 02/14/13 11:37 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Redfred16]
John Harris
4 Point


Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Nashville

Offline
As one of other posters commented, the Bill of Rights and other Constitutional prohibitions are restrictions on the extent to which, if any, government may limit or impair rights. When it comes to private relationships, other common law principles like nuisance, interference with contract, or impairment take over and to some extent yield similar results.

My position is that as to a car or other item of personal property, you should be able to keep, store, carry anything that you legally own or possess in your car because its your personal property. If you (or the public) are generally granted permission to park your car on another's property, such as employee parking lots or open business parking lots, then the real property owner has "invited" that use of their property. That does not mean that they have the right to impair or infringe your use of your car any more than you would have the right to get out of the car and repaint their parking lot.

On the 1st amendment issue, it is interesting that the federal court in California has specifically held that a property owner that provide open parking to the public (e.g., a mall) cannot prohibit the distribution of handbills on car windows b/c that would constitute an unreasonable restraint of the 1st Amendment.
_________________________
John Harris
_________________________________
Attorney &
Executive Director, Tennessee Firearms Association
both of which support my hunting interests.

Top
#3163853 - 02/14/13 11:55 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: John Harris]
BamaProud
12 Point


Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 7326
Loc: Shelby County, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: John Harris
 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
So John, you admit the bill does not protect an employee from being fired. It ONLY covers permit holders (so much for this being a freedom issue), along with half a dozen other problems with the wording...

Why are you not advocating that this bill be pulled on principle alone?


I am trying to persuade legislators and enlist the support of other voters to understand that the bill has serious flaws and should be addressed before they rush to make it law.

On the property rights issue, I wrestled with that myself. I have considered the federal appellate cases which specifically looked at that issue (a case called Ramsey Winch) after the law was passed in Oklahoma about 6 years ago. The federal government found that this is a balancing a rights (real property rights, personal property rights (i.e., the contents of the car), and self-defense/2nd Amendment rights) and that there is not a material or unconstitutional violation of any real property rights or even a "taking" because any infringement is minimal to non-existent. That same opinion was adopted by the Tennessee Attorney General in 2012 when the Senate Judiciary asked for a review of the proposed legislation then.

In addition, the court of appeals noted that real property rights (particularly commercial/business property) are actually heavily regulated with zoning, land use, aesthetics, ADA, and other government infringements.

The court also noted that since most states adopt a civilian carry law at least with the belief or statement that allowing citizens to carry firearms has a proven deterrent effect on generalized and specific crime, that such laws also fall within the state's police powers. Thus, allowing a private property owner to "nullify" a police power of the state was seen as unwarranted under the law just as a property owner could not declare rape or murder laws "void" on their properties.


that is the same response 3 or 4 other have given him, yes, 2nd Amendment rights trump any insignificant "rights"(really desires or preferences) of a business/property owner.

In my opinion -DRM- is confusing a right as defined by the constitution with a preference. There never has been no should there be absolute control of your property.
_________________________
Save the Little ones for the Little Ones.
Wine-Down Brewing and Winemaking

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#3163862 - 02/14/13 12:04 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: TNGunsmoke]
BamaProud
12 Point


Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 7326
Loc: Shelby County, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: TNGunsmoke
I don't know about every employer, but I do know the reasoning where I work for why employees are denied their carry rights. Several years ago, they had a supervisor who had a carry permit, and used the sidearm on his waist to intimidate the guys working under him. He was reprimanded, and policy was then changed to disallow the carry of arms while at work. As far as them being in your parked vehicle on their lot, it is prohibited, but it is don't ask don't tell and as long as their isn't a problem, as far as they are concerned, it isn't there.


That is illegal. Someone should have pressed charges.
_________________________
Save the Little ones for the Little Ones.
Wine-Down Brewing and Winemaking

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#3163872 - 02/14/13 12:16 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: woodchuckc]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: woodchuckc
It seems that some are inferring that when your car, with its contents, is parked in your employer's parking lot it ceases to be your property and becomes your employer's.


I'm not aware of anyone who thinks your car becomes the property of your employer when it is on their parking lot.

But some of you seem to think that when you place your property *on* someone else's property, they should be stripped of the ability to tell you to remove your property from ON their property.

I want someone to explain to me why YOU can ask me to not bring a gun into your yard by way of my car, but business property owner cannot do the same thing.

In either case - the real property owner should have the same recourse: Ask you to remove the thing - and yourself - from their property.
_________________________
~DRM~

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#3163901 - 02/14/13 12:36 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: John Harris]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: John Harris

Thus, the issue for me is not absolute control over real property which is merely an illusion but the balance between the rights of the real property owner, the personal property (car) owner relative to contents, and the right of self-defense which in my mind has a higher priority to any property right.


Good stuff here, John.

I personally have no illusion that property rights should be absolute. As you stated, in the case of adjoining property, there are certain unavoidable issues where balance needs to be found.
And as I have said - if a real property owner were *forcing* you to be *on* their property (as a neighboring property owner is *forced* by the nature of real property to be adjoined to other real property), then that argument applies.

But nobody is forced to be in the parking lot of FedEx. Nor are they forced to be employed there.

As such, the claim that you need to be allowed to carry a gun on their property is merely a matter of CONVENIENCE, at the expense of someone else's control of their real property.

Claiming that your convenience trumps their property control simply does not hold water, nor is it logical.

Beyond that, I entirely disagree with your position that the right to self defense is of higher importance than the right to property. The right to self defense exists (as an innate right) exists so that you may protect your right to property, property to include your very person. As I have said before - the 2A is not an end, it is a mean to an end. Without the concept that property rights exist (again, including yourself as property), the 2A serves no purpose... i.e. - it ceases to be relevant as there is no use for it. The same can not be said of the inverse.


I'm not some anti-gun nut, or a liberal, or just trying to stir stuff up. I'm about as conservative as they come (admittedly pretty libertarian), have an HCP and carry daily, and would be considered a "gun nut" by the casual observer.

Still, when I apply some common sense to this - not relying on past court cases, I can't ignore the fact that for gun owners to get their way here they must use the government to take away someone else's property rights, merely for their convenience, and not out of need.

If a property owner does not want my gun there, it is *my* responsibility to give them the same respect I would ask of any other man who came on to MY property.
_________________________
~DRM~

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#3163920 - 02/14/13 12:58 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: -DRM-]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46480
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
I'm of the opinion, and lets face it DRM, yours is the same, opinion, that it's one right vs another right. Do you agree with this statement? I'm of the belief that the 2nd A guarantees me the right to keep and bear arms, period. Not just here, or there, or sometimes, but not always. So it seems that you're saying that the right of property owners is more important than a 2nd A right in essence, correct? And you see me as saying just the opposite, right?
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3163923 - 02/14/13 01:03 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: MUP]
Daff
Spike


Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 57
Loc: TN

Offline
Aside from all this argument about the bill the more important question is...By What authority can my employer search my personal vehicle?
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#3163925 - 02/14/13 01:05 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Daff]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46480
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
According to some on here, just b/c they want to, b/c you're on their property.
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3163929 - 02/14/13 01:08 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: BlountArrow]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46480
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BlountArrow
 Originally Posted By: TNGunsmoke
I don't know about every employer, but I do know the reasoning where I work for why employees are denied their carry rights. Several years ago, they had a supervisor who had a carry permit, and used the sidearm on his waist to intimidate the guys working under him. He was reprimanded...


First, he should have been fired for intimidation tactics. Second, might have got the same reaction with a 12" Bowie Knife so let's not blame the gun (not saying you did).

Gentlemen, I'm enjoying the posts and the education. I hope it stays professional.


I'm trying BA, but I'm just an amateur. \:\)
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3163942 - 02/14/13 01:25 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Daff]
John Harris
4 Point


Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Nashville

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Daff
Aside from all this argument about the bill the more important question is...By What authority can my employer search my personal vehicle?


Normally, the employment contract or handbook - if there is one - will often grant employers the right to search you and your stuff whenever its at work.

Aside from that contractual right, they would ordinarily have to get law enforcement to secure a search warrant based on probable cause to believe a crime has been committed.
_________________________
John Harris
_________________________________
Attorney &
Executive Director, Tennessee Firearms Association
both of which support my hunting interests.

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#3163963 - 02/14/13 01:55 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: John Harris]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 3522
Loc: Franklin County

Offline
If an employer can prevent a Concealed Carry Permit holder from carrying a gun to and from work then the permit is virutally worthless. Most of us go to work Mon-Fri and run most errands on the way home from work. That's the majority of the time we would be exposed to the violence that we got the permit for in the 1st place. All this legal crap is just another way of neutering the 2nd Amendment.
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#3164362 - 02/14/13 08:20 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: MUP]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: MUP
I'm of the opinion, and lets face it DRM, yours is the same, opinion, that it's one right vs another right. Do you agree with this statement? I'm of the belief that the 2nd A guarantees me the right to keep and bear arms, period.


Simple question:

Do you believe you have the right to ask me to leave *your* property if I have a gun in my car or on my person?
_________________________
~DRM~

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#3164363 - 02/14/13 08:22 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Daff]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Daff
Aside from all this argument about the bill the more important question is...By What authority can my employer search my personal vehicle?


I've been pretty clear all along - I think a property owner (you, me, FedEx, or the mall) should only have one recourse: they can ask you to leave their property.

So no, I do not think anyone should be able to "search" another man's property. I consider that an unreasonable violation of property rights.
_________________________
~DRM~

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#3164394 - 02/14/13 08:49 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: -DRM-]
Bowdacious
Skillet
16 Point


Registered: 09/01/00
Posts: 16350
Loc: over here

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 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
 Originally Posted By: Daff
Aside from all this argument about the bill the more important question is...By What authority can my employer search my personal vehicle?


I've been pretty clear all along - I think a property owner (you, me, FedEx, or the mall) should only have one recourse: they can ask you to leave their property.

So no, I do not think anyone should be able to "search" another man's property. I consider that an unreasonable violation of property rights.

Well, my employer can and has. It is in the handbook. Lockers are locked with their locks, purses and jackets are searched when you go out the door and they can search your vehicle. If they search and you have a gun locked away, you are terminated. I am unarmed to and from work because of it.
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Disagreeing with me doesn't make me any less right

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#3164404 - 02/14/13 09:00 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: -DRM-]
westtntoms
8 Point


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 1545
Loc: Collierville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
 Originally Posted By: MUP
I'm of the opinion, and lets face it DRM, yours is the same, opinion, that it's one right vs another right. Do you agree with this statement? I'm of the belief that the 2nd A guarantees me the right to keep and bear arms, period.


Simple question:

Do you believe you have the right to ask me to leave *your* property if I have a gun in my car or on my person?


I believe I have the right to ask you to leave my property regardless of whether or not you have a gun. Me having a gun is my right whether I'm on your property or mine. The 2nd amendment doesn't state I can only have a gun on my property, it says I can have a gun, period. If someone wants me off their property all they gotta do is say so. Laws that state I can't have a gun on Any private property go against the 2nd amendment, period. [/i][i]

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#3164445 - 02/14/13 09:35 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Daff]
TNhunter
TnDeer Old Timer
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/99
Posts: 4395
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN, Rutherford

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Daff
Aside from all this argument about the bill the more important question is...By What authority can my employer search my personal vehicle?


My employer will NEVER search my vehicle without a warrant - period end of story. NEVER EVER!!!!! I will leave the property anytime asked.
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TNhunter


"If there is unrest, the government will seize all the registered guns."

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#3164558 - 02/15/13 03:09 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: TNhunter]
BamaProud
12 Point


Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 7326
Loc: Shelby County, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
 Originally Posted By: MUP
I'm of the opinion, and lets face it DRM, yours is the same, opinion, that it's one right vs another right. Do you agree with this statement? I'm of the belief that the 2nd A guarantees me the right to keep and bear arms, period.


Simple question:

Do you believe you have the right to ask me to leave *your* property if I have a gun in my car or on my person?


The gun is irrelevant IMO. I have the right to ask you to leave my property for any reason. A business owner, can do the same as long as it is not on a discriminatory basis.
_________________________
Save the Little ones for the Little Ones.
Wine-Down Brewing and Winemaking

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#3164567 - 02/15/13 04:34 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: westtntoms]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46480
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
 Originally Posted By: westtntoms
 Originally Posted By: -DRM-
 Originally Posted By: MUP
I'm of the opinion, and lets face it DRM, yours is the same, opinion, that it's one right vs another right. Do you agree with this statement? I'm of the belief that the 2nd A guarantees me the right to keep and bear arms, period.


Simple question:

Do you believe you have the right to ask me to leave *your* property if I have a gun in my car or on my person?


I believe I have the right to ask you to leave my property regardless of whether or not you have a gun. Me having a gun is my right whether I'm on your property or mine. The 2nd amendment doesn't state I can only have a gun on my property, it says I can have a gun, period. If someone wants me off their property all they gotta do is say so. Laws that state I can't have a gun on Any private property go against the 2nd amendment, period. [/i][i]


This pretty much sums up my answer as well DRM. It's pretty clear that we're not going to change one another's viewpoint on this, so best of luck to you as I sign off on this thread. \:\)
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3179163 - 02/28/13 11:32 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: MUP]
-DRM-
6 Point


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 774
Loc: Spring Hill, TN

Offline
Since this just passed the Senate, Might as well bring it up again.


I've dome some more chewing on this, and reading, and chewing...


And I think I've come to the conclusion that this bill is actually closer to my line of thinking than I originally thought.


I'm sticking by the concept that when one man's property (car) is parked *ON* another man's property (real estate), the owner of the car does not have the right to force the real estate owner to let them leave a gun in their car and parked *ON* that real estate property. I think this is a key component of the very concept of freedom in this country.

What I do like about this bill though - is that it removes pretty much all CRIMINAL penalties from the offense. As I have said - the ONLY recourse a real estate property owner should have is to say "leave", there should be no recourse available that includes any criminal punishments, unless of course the person refuses to leave the property.

But yet again, it is a shame this will not apply to ALL people, and only applies to permit holders. That part is, well, absurd.

I think if we can get that done, this is a great step in the right direction.


The next complaint really is not a property rights issue, it is an employment contract issue. I think we run a pretty big risk of damaging our "at will" employment arrangement in this state if we start telling an employer what they can and cannot fire someone for, especially when the employer willfully agrees to certain stipulations when they take the job.

I think the second step to resolving this would be to create a law that an employer can not - under any circumstances - search your car. Again, their only recourse should be to ask that it be removed from their property.

Now, it seems to me that if they can't search your car, and you didn't admit you had a gun in it and nobody saw it, then should they chose to terminate your employment for having a gun in your car, you would then have a legal case for wrongful termination. In essence, I see this as more of a "don't ask, don't tell" type arrangement.

Again - I think removing any and all CRIMINAL penalties for having a gun in your car on someone else's property is a GREAT first move.
_________________________
~DRM~

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#3179165 - 02/28/13 11:36 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: -DRM-]
Hawk
TnDeer Old Timer
12 Point


Registered: 09/03/99
Posts: 6666
Loc: west tenn.

Offline
Just passed in the house with no ammendments. On its way to the Governor's desk.
_________________________
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#3179167 - 02/28/13 11:38 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: woodchuckc]
89cherokeelimited
6 Point


Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 838
Loc: TN, Sumner, Hendersonville

Offline
 Originally Posted By: woodchuckc
 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
 Originally Posted By: BlountArrow
Not to distract the conversation, but did they try to pass this last year and did it fail at some point? Lastly, does anyone know if the wording allows it on federally owned property?


It states anywhere the permit holder is legally allowed to be, except where firearms are prohibited by federal law, like oak ridge and TVA nuclear facilities.

The law they tried to pass last year was to allow college employees to carry on campus if I am not mistaken. It may have been a couple of years ago. Either way, this one backs off the carry into the building idea and allows you to have a gun in your vehicle on campus, locked away out of sight.


Yeah, it is really going to help me to have my gun locked in my car in the parking lot 1/2 mile away when some lunatic busts into my classroom and starts shooting while I'm giving a lecture to 150 students. I guess I could politely ask him to stop while I go get my gun, or just throw some dry erase markers and board erasers at him as they are the only "weapons" I'm allowed. Don't get me wrong, this is a small step in the right direction but I am afraid that once this passes and becomes law, many lawmakers will pat themselves on the back and think the job of restoring ALL of our rights to carry and protect ourselves is done.


Remember the post a few weeks ago where it said get a pair of scissors and catch him off guard. Even though he has a gun homeland security says scissors can be just as effective...
_________________________
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity.
Albert Einstein

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#3179173 - 02/28/13 11:43 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: 89cherokeelimited]
89cherokeelimited
6 Point


Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 838
Loc: TN, Sumner, Hendersonville

Offline
Even though my employer says we can't have them in our cars I still lock mine in my center console. A few days ago a store got robbed right down the street from my office and the guys were headed my way to our building and I went to my car and got my gun out and put it in my Carhartt inside pocket and went back in. Nobody knew I did it.
During work hours our front doors are open and all we have between us the lobby is a double glass door.
There was only 3 people in the office and I wasn't going to let 3 armed guys run our way and just sit back and see if they were going to come in our building or not.

I pretty much made the decision I would shoot them and most likely loose my job and get to go home to my wife, or be shot for not having my gun and be buried at 25 years old.
I chose my gun and wife...
_________________________
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity.
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#3179182 - 02/28/13 11:49 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: 89cherokeelimited]
ferg
Cancer Free
16 Point


Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 16231
Loc: At the TNDeer shirt factory %^...

Offline
Good choice 89c \:\)
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#3179187 - 02/28/13 11:54 AM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: ferg]
Redfred16
8 Point


Registered: 01/22/12
Posts: 1411
Loc: Hartland, WI

Offline
 Originally Posted By: ferg
Good choice 89c \:\)


x2
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#3179207 - 02/28/13 12:12 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Redfred16]
BamaProud
12 Point


Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 7326
Loc: Shelby County, TN

Offline
X3 if you are carrying correctly and safely, the chance of anyone finding out is miniscule. While the chance of actually needing it is also miniscule, the consequence of not having it if you need it can be deadly.
_________________________
Save the Little ones for the Little Ones.
Wine-Down Brewing and Winemaking

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#3179216 - 02/28/13 12:20 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: BamaProud]
89cherokeelimited
6 Point


Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 838
Loc: TN, Sumner, Hendersonville

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BamaProud
X3 if you are carrying correctly and safely, the chance of anyone finding out is miniscule. While the chance of actually needing it is also miniscule, the consequence of not having it if you need it can be deadly.


Exactly. By the grace of God they didn't come into our building but they did break into 6 cars in the parking lot beside our parking lot. There is a 5' grass area between our 2 parking lots. That's how close they got to us.

When the police sent the notice across our network you could actually go to the windows and see the 3 guys.
My other concern was the other 2 people in my office was a 63 year old woman and a 57 year old man. I would have felt horrible if one or both of them got shot and I could have done something about it. I have two 1 1/2" thick wooden doors I can close and get into our server room where I would pretty much be safe but I couldn't leave the two elder people to defend themselves.

Luckily the 3 guys were caught right outside our parking lot and were taken in but it was kind of a wake up call.
I carry a Glock 27 (.40 sub-compact) when I put it in my Carhartt coat you can't tell I have it on me at all.
_________________________
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity.
Albert Einstein

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#3179259 - 02/28/13 12:57 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: 89cherokeelimited]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46480
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
They just don't know how "lucky" they were to get caught then do they 89? That's what gets me about criminals like that...they don't realize that behind each door, could be lights out. \:\/
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3179266 - 02/28/13 01:06 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: MUP]
89cherokeelimited
6 Point


Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 838
Loc: TN, Sumner, Hendersonville

Offline
 Originally Posted By: MUP
They just don't know how "lucky" they were to get caught then do they 89? That's what gets me about criminals like that...they don't realize that behind each door, could be lights out. \:\/

YEP lol I had 2 9 rd magazines and 1 in the chamber of Hornady Critical Defense waiting lol
They also could see the big "NO GUNS" on our doors.
Thing they don't know atleast one of us in here has a gun lol.
I have a straight shot from my office door to the front doors.
They open the front doors and one step in it's goodnight forever...
I was just talking to office director via email. She said not even 3 months ago the building to our right was held up at gun point.
She told me "They did the right thing, they listened and obeyed the criminals" 1 out of 2 were caught.
I told her ya that's what I would do... She doesn't know I keep my gun in my car. She's a HUGE liberal and anti-gun to the max.
She was the one giving me crap a few weeks ago about my anti-obama stickers.


Edited by 89cherokeelimited (02/28/13 01:07 PM)
_________________________
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity.
Albert Einstein

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#3179272 - 02/28/13 01:11 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: 89cherokeelimited]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46480
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

Offline
Sheesh. Keep it very low profile, and don't talk about it to any of your co-workers then, I wouldn't.
_________________________
MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3179275 - 02/28/13 01:16 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: MUP]
89cherokeelimited
6 Point


Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 838
Loc: TN, Sumner, Hendersonville

Offline
 Originally Posted By: MUP
Sheesh. Keep it very low profile, and don't talk about it to any of your co-workers then, I wouldn't.


None of them know lol
Only people that know is my wife and people on TNDEER. lol
I know non of my co-workers are on TNDEER because they are all liberals who love obama, hate guns, and hate hunting lol
That couldn't exist on TNDEER lol
_________________________
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity.
Albert Einstein

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#3179289 - 02/28/13 01:28 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: 89cherokeelimited]
Hawkeye5
6 Point


Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 819
Loc: Hendersonville

Offline
I wonder what the state will do in its own parking lots? Time will tell.
_________________________
If you Lie, lie to save a friend.
If you Steal, steal the heart of a beautiful maiden.
If you Cheat, cheat death.
And when you Drink, drink with me, my friends.

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#3179291 - 02/28/13 01:30 PM Re: Tennessee Senate approves guns-in-parking-lots bil [Re: Hawkeye5]
Diehard Hunter
CRAMP
12 Point


Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 6980
Loc: East Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Hawkeye5
I wonder what the state will do in its own parking lots? Time will tell.


My thoughts exactly. Since I work for the state, I am very interested!
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