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#3159757 - 02/11/13 12:38 PM Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend?
762hunter
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Registered: 07/16/04
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Left is the Hevi Shot MagBlend 3 1/2
Right is the Winchester Xtende Range 3 1/2 #5shot



I have been shooting the Xtended Range the past couple years with good results.
Needed some shells so decided to try out the MagBlend.

Think I like it.

I have adjusted my sights a bit to the right so time to shoot a couple more and see where its hitting. Gonna try it at 40 yards as well just to know what the pattern is there.

Dang shells get expensive when shooting paper.


Oh this is out of a Rem 870.

Been thinking about a Bsquare mount and scope of some sort.

What are ya'lls opinion? scope or no scope? reg scope or red dot?

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#3159771 - 02/11/13 12:48 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: 762hunter]
BigRod
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Registered: 10/03/07
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What tube are you using?
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#3159775 - 02/11/13 12:50 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: BigRod]
REN
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how far are those shots from?
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#3159776 - 02/11/13 12:50 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: 762hunter]
ruger7mag
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I would go with the Hevi. As far as scope or no scope question, I would definitely get one. I use a Leupold 1.5-4x20 on a saddle mount and love it.
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#3159790 - 02/11/13 01:03 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: REN]
Spurhunter
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 Originally Posted By: REN
how far are those shots from?


X2. Both targets look good but I'm quite sure these aren't 40 yard targets.
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#3159792 - 02/11/13 01:05 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: ruger7mag]
Spurhunter
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 Originally Posted By: ruger7mag
As far as scope or no scope question, I would definitely get one. I use a Leupold 1.5-4x20 on a saddle mount and love it.


I use a B Square with a turkey scope but I recently aquired a Leupold 2-7 Turkey plex NWTF Edition I am swapping to. I love a scope on a turkey gun.
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#3159795 - 02/11/13 01:07 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: 762hunter]
Spurhunter
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I shot 3.5 inch XR 5's for several years but when I shot a longbeard at 42 yards and he ran off I switched to Hevi straight 6's. It's a Ford/Chevy thing I guess.
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#3159861 - 02/11/13 02:02 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Spurhunter]
deerhunter10
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Registered: 08/21/12
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cant go wrong with magnum blends imo!
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#3159868 - 02/11/13 02:06 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: deerhunter10]
762hunter
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You are correct Spurhunter,
These were shot at 25 yards

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#3159875 - 02/11/13 02:12 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: 762hunter]
Rockhound
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Being as how the hevi is 1/4 oz more. Its 6:1 half dozen to the other
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#3159924 - 02/11/13 03:11 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Rockhound]
bowhunterfanatic
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Good looking pattern. With a pattern that tight I'd have to use a scope or shoot em all at 35 yards!
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#3159931 - 02/11/13 03:25 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: bowhunterfanatic]
762hunter
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Bigrod,
I am currently shooting the CompnChoke xxfull Turkey choke

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#3159975 - 02/11/13 04:26 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Spurhunter]
ruger7mag
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 Originally Posted By: Spurhunter
 Originally Posted By: ruger7mag
As far as scope or no scope question, I would definitely get one. I use a Leupold 1.5-4x20 on a saddle mount and love it.


I use a B Square with a turkey scope but I recently aquired a Leupold 2-7 Turkey plex NWTF Edition I am swapping to. I love a scope on a turkey gun.


I almost bought one of those scopes when I bought mine, but I figured I would never turn it past 4 power so i went with the 1.5-4. They will both work well though.
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#3159984 - 02/11/13 04:33 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: ruger7mag]
Spurhunter
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 Originally Posted By: ruger7mag
 Originally Posted By: Spurhunter
 Originally Posted By: ruger7mag
As far as scope or no scope question, I would definitely get one. I use a Leupold 1.5-4x20 on a saddle mount and love it.


I use a B Square with a turkey scope but I recently aquired a Leupold 2-7 Turkey plex NWTF Edition I am swapping to. I love a scope on a turkey gun.


I almost bought one of those scopes when I bought mine, but I figured I would never turn it past 4 power so i went with the 1.5-4. They will both work well though.


I agree. The one I'm replacing is a straight 2.5 power and it served me well. I got this 2-7 in a package deal so I'm going to put it to good use. It's better glass than my old one too.
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#3160006 - 02/11/13 05:06 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Spurhunter]
KANATI McD
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Registered: 10/30/04
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Heavy shot mag blends. Step out to 40 yards and compare
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#3160335 - 02/11/13 08:55 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: 762hunter]
Gravey
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I switched to magblends last year and love 'em. I also have a scope and B-square mount on my 835.
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#3160363 - 02/11/13 09:09 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Gravey]
762hunter
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Here is 40 yards



and here is my setup

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#3160375 - 02/11/13 09:10 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: 762hunter]
762hunter
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I'm trying to tell myself I dont need a scope and forget about it but can see where it would be nice at 40 yards +

I have only killed 4 birds so I'm rather a Novice at this Turkey stuff

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#3160386 - 02/11/13 09:15 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: 762hunter]
Rockhound
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40+ yds ain't where you need a scope, from muzzle to 25 yds is where you need a scope. I personally dont like a cope on my Turkey gun. You have good sights there i would sight her in at 10 yds and make sure you still have a good centered pattern at 40 and let her rip
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#3161070 - 02/12/13 12:35 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Rockhound]
KANATI McD
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Scope would be nice. But sometimes you gotta be extreme. Just dont think the scope would stay on when im belly crawling
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#3161118 - 02/12/13 01:12 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: KANATI McD]
Wes Parrish
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Registered: 06/12/02
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 Originally Posted By: KANATI McD
Just dont think the scope would stay on when im belly crawling

A good scope & mounts should be uneffected by a "belly crawl".
My preference on a turkey gun is the old version Nikon Monarch 1.5-4.5 x 20mm. It has a much smaller "footprint" than most of the "red dots" and other "turkey" scopes, with exception to special sights such as the Burris Fastfire (another excellent choice).

By the way, of all the turkey loads I've tested, the Winchester Xtended range shells have consistently produced the most uniform patterns. They are superior to copper-plated lead loads, but do not have the per-pellet energy of the Hevi-13 (or Mag blends) loads. I've generally found the Winchester Xtendeds to produce a larger (but very uniform) pattern than the mag blends, meaning they might be more ideal for a 2nd shot if needed on a wounded but fleeing bird (due to a slightly larger pattern).

One thing to keep in mind:

The "heavier" the material used for the pellets, the fewer pellets per ounce. Thus, 2 ounces of Win. Xtended #6's have more pellets in them than 2 ounces of Hevi-13 #6's. Thus, as you got to "heavier" materials, you may need to go to smaller shot sizes, i.e. most are using #8 or #9 size shot in the TSS material, as it "penetrates" comparably to a #5 or #6 lead, while offering greater pattern density.

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#3161842 - 02/12/13 09:28 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Rockhound
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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: KANATI McD
Just dont think the scope would stay on when im belly crawling



One thing to keep in mind:

The "heavier" the material used for the pellets, the fewer pellets per ounce. Thus, 2 ounces of Win. Xtended #6's have more pellets in them than 2 ounces of Hevi-13 #6's. Thus, as you got to "heavier" materials, you may need to go to smaller shot sizes, i.e. most are using #8 or #9 size shot in the TSS material, as it "penetrates" comparably to a #5 or #6 lead, while offering greater pattern density.


Hevi and xtended range are both the same density, both are equal in pellet count if the payloads are the same. Both are 12 grams per cubic centimeter
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#3162056 - 02/13/13 07:45 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Rockhound]
Wes Parrish
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 Originally Posted By: Rockhound
Hevi and xtended range are both the same density, both are equal in pellet count if the payloads are the same. Both are 12 grams per cubic centimeter

I had been under the impression that the Hevi-13's were of a denser material than the Winchester Xtendeds.

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#3162085 - 02/13/13 08:09 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Rockhound
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Registered: 04/04/11
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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: Rockhound
Hevi and xtended range are both the same density, both are equal in pellet count if the payloads are the same. Both are 12 grams per cubic centimeter

I had been under the impression that the Hevi-13's were of a denser material than the Winchester Xtendeds.


I think at one time they actually were, with hevi at 13 g/cc but now both are equal in weight.
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#3162095 - 02/13/13 08:14 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Rockhound]
Rockhound
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Clean out your p.m's wes \:\)
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#3162356 - 02/13/13 11:26 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Rockhound]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
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 Originally Posted By: Rockhound
I think at one time they actually were, with hevi at 13 g/cc but now both are equal in weight.
If I really wanted to be sure, I would do a test to determine the density (mass per unit volume) of the shot in the shells you own. Reason I say this is because I talked with a Hevi-Shot rep few days back and he assured me the density was still 13g/cc in the Hevi-13 loads. I also asked this same question to another rep few years back and he too told me that they were 13g/cc. In the end, 12 versus 13 isn't that big of difference, just thought I would point this out.
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#3162403 - 02/13/13 12:16 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Andy S.]
Rockhound
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Straight from the shot-man himself this guy has handled and tested more shot than anyone here dare dream....

Here's a basic chart showing the approx, nominal pellet counts per ounce of shot of various materials and sizes; assuming true shape, true size and true density.

Lead Shot

Lead #2: 89/oz Lead #4: 136/oz Lead #5: 173/oz Lead #6: 222/oz Lead #7: 295/oz

12g/cc Shot (Hevi-Shot, Hevi-13, Win XRHD, Rem HD)

12g/cc #2: 81/oz 12g/cc #4: 125/oz 12g/cc #5: 159/oz 12g/cc #6: 209/oz 12g/cc #7: 278/oz

13g/cc Shot (ITX Extreme Turkey Trauma-13, Nitros Megaweight)

13g/cc #2: 75/oz 13g/cc #4: 115/oz 13g/cc #5: 147/oz 13g/cc #6: 193/oz 13g/cc #7: 256/oz 13g/cc #8: 352/oz

15g/cc Shot (Federal Heavyweight, Tungsten Spheres)

15g/cc #2: 65/oz 15g/cc #4: 100/oz 15g/cc #5: 127/oz 15g/cc #6: 165/oz 15g/cc #7: 219/oz 15g/cc #8: 301/oz

18g/cc Shot (TSS)

TSS #2: 54/oz TSS #4: 83/oz TSS #5: 106/oz TSS #6: 139/oz TSS #7: 185/oz TSS #8: 254/oz TSS #9: 362
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#3162462 - 02/13/13 01:09 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Rockhound]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
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Registered: 07/26/99
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 Originally Posted By: Rockhound
Straight from the shot-man himself this guy has handled and tested more shot than anyone here dare dream....
I am all to familiar with his knowledge from other turkey hunting forums and his data you presented here, but I am not familiar with his testing procedures. If you will, ask him how he determined Hevi-13 to be 12 g/cc, and furthermore, ask him what his sample size was (how much testing he has done). In other words, if he cut open one shell and did some random test, I would not be near as compelled as if he tested numerous Hevi-13 shells/shot with a detailed testing procedure that could be duplicated for verification. Run that rabbit down if you have the time. I'd like to hear his answer to both of my questions (how he came to this conclusion and what level of testing was done to get there). Thanks.
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#3162499 - 02/13/13 01:49 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Andy S.]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
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Rock - I, too, am trying to contact Hal to ask these questions as well. I PM'd him on another forum site, awaiting his reply now.
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#3162537 - 02/13/13 02:07 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Andy S.]
Wes Parrish
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Or, we could just consider going with the Federal Heavyweights! \:D
They ARE 15g/cc, trumping the density of everything else out there in a commercial load. If you can find them in a #7, I highly recommend you buy them. But good luck finding those #7's except in 20 gauge.

Check out this comparison below of the Federal Heavyweight #7 pellets vs. Standard Lead #5 pellets!
http://www.chuckhawks.com/federal_20gauge_heavyweight_turkey_load.htm

I was unable to find the Federal Heavyweight 12 gauge in any shot size smaller than #6's last year. Because the shot was SO dense, those loads had a lot fewer pellets, and the #6's just weren't giving the pattern density I wanted. But if could find them in a #7 . . . . . . !!! Better yet, wish they would make them available in a #8 Heavyweight. In the meantime, I'm shooting Hevi-13 straight #7's and/or the H13 "Blends" as my chambered 12 ga. turkey load. (The 20 ga. is carrying the #7 Heavyweights.)

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#3162541 - 02/13/13 02:10 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
REN
Good ol' Boys "Team Grizzly"
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if they didnt put the stupid flight control wad in there i would love to shoot them.
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#3162548 - 02/13/13 02:16 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: REN]
Wes Parrish
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Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: REN
if they didnt put the stupid flight control wad in there i would love to shoot them.

Some people are saying it doesn't matter, while others say not to use the flight control wad in a ported choke.
My 20 gauge doesn't have a ported choke, and nothing else even comes close to those Federals in the 20 ga.

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#3162554 - 02/13/13 02:21 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
woodsman87
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I have a ported choke and I have never heard not to use flite control wads in them. I have used the Federal flite control wad lead loads and it worked great.
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#3162563 - 02/13/13 02:27 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: woodsman87]
REN
Good ol' Boys "Team Grizzly"
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its not so much the "ported" part that causes the issue. You are not suppose to use it in a wad stripping choke. From all the tests ive done with standard ones there seems to be a difference in the chokes i use.

Maybe i would and maybe it wouldnt but with the price is that high i dont really want to buy them to see IF they will work.
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#3162586 - 02/13/13 02:47 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
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Registered: 07/26/99
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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
Or, we could just consider going with the Federal Heavyweights! \:D
I have given it a lot of thought more times than once over the last few years, but I just cannot find a reason to stray from my current setup that has proven itself time and time again in the field, under all conditions I have faced thus far. With that said, I could very easily understand and believe Federal Heavyweight users that are extremely pleased with their killing performance, considering their density and muzzle velocity.
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If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3162596 - 02/13/13 02:52 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
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Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
If you can find them in a #7, I highly recommend you buy them. But good luck finding those #7's except in 20 gauge.
Here you go Wes. 12 gauge 3.5" Heavyweight #7s
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3162636 - 02/13/13 03:01 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Andy S.]
Wes Parrish
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Thanks, Andy.
Am ordering, and will see what happens.
My ONLY disappointment with these Federal Heavyweights is they're only putting 1 7/8 ounce of shot in a 3 1/2" 12 ga. shell! One would think if they can find a way to get 1 1/2 ounce of shot in a 20 ga. shell, they could get at least a couple ounces in a 12 ga. shell!

But those pellets are coming out at a significantly higher velocity than the H-13 loads! Now, if they'll just pattern uniformly and dense enough, we have a winner.

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#3162643 - 02/13/13 03:04 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
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Registered: 07/26/99
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Loc: Atoka, TN

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Yesir, anytime.
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If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3162695 - 02/13/13 03:54 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Grizzly Johnson Moderator
Team Grizzly
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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
Thanks, Andy.
Am ordering, and will see what happens.
My ONLY disappointment with these Federal Heavyweights is they're only putting 1 7/8 ounce of shot in a 3 1/2" 12 ga. shell! One would think if they can find a way to get 1 1/2 ounce of shot in a 20 ga. shell, they could get at least a couple ounces in a 12 ga. shell!

But those pellets are coming out at a significantly higher velocity than the H-13 loads! Now, if they'll just pattern uniformly and dense enough, we have a winner.


Probably has to do with the pressures..... and shot weight.

It's more of a safety issue for Federal.... for commercial loads... keep from blowing something up at a 12ga level. A handloader could up it to 2oz pretty easy I'm sure, with the time in load developement/testing, then have it tested at the lab to make sure it is still safe for the user....
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#3162711 - 02/13/13 04:08 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Grizzly Johnson]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19470
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Grizzly Johnson
Probably has to do with the pressures..... and shot weight.

I'd say you're probably right about it being something to do with the pressures. BUT, darn ironic that they have put out a 1 1/2-ounce 20 gauge load! Even the Heavy-13 20 ga. loads are only 1 1/4-ounce of shot. No one else even comes close to the potency of Federal's 20 ga. turkey load.

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#3162726 - 02/13/13 04:19 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Andy S.]
Uncle Jesse
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 Originally Posted By: Andy S.
If I really wanted to be sure, I would do a test to determine the density (mass per unit volume) of the shot in the shells you own. Reason I say this is because I talked with a Hevi-Shot rep few days back and he assured me the density was still 13g/cc in the Hevi-13 loads. I also asked this same question to another rep few years back and he too told me that they were 13g/cc. In the end, 12 versus 13 isn't that big of difference, just thought I would point this out.


I'd be surprised if anybody that works for EM knows the exact density of any of their shot. After all the Hevi Shot Duck drama, I'm not sure what to believe from them
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#3163175 - 02/13/13 09:11 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Uncle Jesse]
Rockhound
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Registered: 04/04/11
Posts: 3091
Loc: Lawrence Co. TN

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 Originally Posted By: Uncle Jesse
 Originally Posted By: Andy S.
If I really wanted to be sure, I would do a test to determine the density (mass per unit volume) of the shot in the shells you own. Reason I say this is because I talked with a Hevi-Shot rep few days back and he assured me the density was still 13g/cc in the Hevi-13 loads. I also asked this same question to another rep few years back and he too told me that they were 13g/cc. In the end, 12 versus 13 isn't that big of difference, just thought I would point this out.


I'd be surprised if anybody that works for EM knows the exact density of any of their shot. After all the Hevi Shot Duck drama, I'm not sure what to believe from them


I agree
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#3163178 - 02/13/13 09:13 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Rockhound]
Rockhound
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The federal heavyweights are BAD out of my 10 ga.


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#3163249 - 02/13/13 10:02 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Rockhound]
Rockhound
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Id like to see a representative of a company that will tell you what you need to know not what you wanna hear

m highly doubting they ever handled any of the shot
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#3163513 - 02/14/13 07:20 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Rockhound]
Andy S.
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 Originally Posted By: Rockhound
Id like to see a representative of a company that will tell you what you need to know not what you wanna hear
While I agree with the logic in this statement as I know plenty of salesmen, the reps I spoke with were customer service reps, not sales reps pushing a product on me. I can assure you that I will believe the repeated consistent answer of a rep from any company before I will someone typing on a keyboard at home or the office, UNLESS the person typing can substantiate his or her claim with scientific testing that can be followed and understood, and furthermore duplicated to ensure accuracy and the same conclusion regardless how many times it is performed. I have asked three different EM reps this question over the last three years, partially in hopes of getting a different answer, and they have all told me the same answer. I am not saying they are telling the truth, but I would think I could trip at least one rep up and get a different answer at some point. Maybe I will keep trying. With that said, I will choose to believe them UNLESS someone can show me the facts that suggest/prove otherwise. Have you asked Hal how he determined Hevi-13 to be 12g/cc? I would really like to hear his answer. Again, not doubting him, just want to here the supporting information to this claim. It can be fun and very informative play devil's advocate. \:\)
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If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3163612 - 02/14/13 08:46 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Andy S.]
Rockhound
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\:\) i wish all the dadgum post hadn't been deleted off the no-longer there loading section on old gobbler it was there with pics and all. There were several threads were they had tested the shot by placing the shot in a vial and seeing how much it displaced the water, and whatever from there. I was at a guys house Saturday that was talking about a jug of hevi-13 he had bought but he was cheated because it only measured 12/g
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#3163621 - 02/14/13 08:50 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Rockhound]
Rockhound
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I just posted over on the place we talked about the other day maybe they still have the thread info
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#3163722 - 02/14/13 10:07 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Rockhound]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
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Good deal Rock. I just emailed Hal with that specific question and am now awaiting his reply. I will post up his response when I receive it.
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If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3163737 - 02/14/13 10:22 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Andy S.]
Wes Parrish
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Well, if I get a "round tuit", will be pretty easy for me to conclude for myself whether Hevi-13 is heavier (or not) than Winchester Xtendeds. I have both in #6 shot, so I presume if I counted out say 100 pellets of each, then weigh them on my powder scale, will be pretty obvious whether they're of the same weight or if the Hevi-13 is heavier?

Don't think I can do an "apples-to-apples" weight test on the Mag Blends, but anyone see any reason why simply weighing 100 pellets of #6's from each brand wouldn't be conclusive as whether Hevi-13 is the same or heavier than Win. Xtendeds?

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#3163754 - 02/14/13 10:46 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Rockhound
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Registered: 04/04/11
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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
Well, if I get a "round tuit", will be pretty easy for me to conclude for myself whether Hevi-13 is heavier (or not) than Winchester Xtendeds. I have both in #6 shot, so I presume if I counted out say 100 pellets of each, then weigh them on my powder scale, will be pretty obvious whether they're of the same weight or if the Hevi-13 is heavier?

Don't think I can do an "apples-to-apples" weight test on the Mag Blends, but anyone see any reason why simply weighing 100 pellets of #6's from each brand wouldn't be conclusive as whether Hevi-13 is the same or heavier than Win. Xtendeds?


If you cut one open you will see a reason, your hevi load of straight "6's" will contain shot sizes ranging from 2 to 8 most likely
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Isaiah 40:31.... Those who wait upon The Lord .....shall renew there strength ......

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#3163756 - 02/14/13 10:46 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
booth
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You could do that if the hevi shot was uniform.
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#3163760 - 02/14/13 10:49 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
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Registered: 07/26/99
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Hal's response to me verbatim. I will take his word as the gospel because he is well respected as is Clarke who he mentions in his reply. I've got some great pointers from Clarke over the years as far as chokes and other shooting stuff goes, and now I have found the truth to this matter due to his efforts.

Andy,

Hevi-13 started out being 13g/cc, but a couple years ago, they went to 12g/cc. That has been verified by many folks through pellet counts, density tests, and by a statement from EM's CEO to Clark Bush which was posted online.

EM is intentionally deceptive about the density of their shot in its various forms, and have made a lot of waterfowlers mad at them, among others. It's puzzling, but that's the way they market for some reason.


I stand corrected. \:\)
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3163793 - 02/14/13 11:07 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Rockhound]
Wes Parrish
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Registered: 06/12/02
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Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Rockhound
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
Don't think I can do an "apples-to-apples" weight test on the Mag Blends, but anyone see any reason why simply weighing 100 pellets of #6's from each brand wouldn't be conclusive as whether Hevi-13 is the same or heavier than Win. Xtendeds?


If you cut one open you will see a reason, your hevi load of straight "6's" will contain shot sizes ranging from 2 to 8 most likely

Point well taken, but believe if use 100 average pellets from each shell, still should have a somewhat valid comparison.

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#3163794 - 02/14/13 11:09 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Andy S.]
Wes Parrish
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Registered: 06/12/02
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 Originally Posted By: Andy S.
Hevi-13 started out being 13g/cc, but a couple years ago, they went to 12g/cc. That has been verified by many folks through pellet counts, density tests, and by a statement from EM's CEO to Clark Bush which was posted online.

EM is intentionally deceptive about the density of their shot . . . . . It's puzzling, but that's the way they market for some reason.[/i]

WOWZER!
If this is true, Hevi-13 is being very deceptive. Outright fraud.

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#3163808 - 02/14/13 11:17 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Wes Parrish
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I just went online to see how the Hevi-13's are "described" and found this, "HEVI-13 pellets are about 20% denser than lead."
Note, they do not list the actually density.

So, if lead has a density of 11.35 g/cc, then to be 20% denser than lead, the density should be 13.62 g/cc?
(11.35 x 1.20 = 13.62)

From the same website advertising the Hevi-13's (Cabela's), we find the ad for the Federal Heavyweights stating, "Federal's Heavyweight shot has a density of 15 grams per cubic centimeter; that's 1/3 denser than lead."

OK, 11.35 x 1.3333 = 15.13 = pretty close to 1/3 denser than lead if the Federals weigh 15 g/cc as stated.

Finally, we look at the ad for the Winchester® Supreme Elite Xtended Range Hi-Density Turkey Loads which state, "Specially formulated shot is 10% denser than lead."
If the 10% part is true, then the Winchester Xtendeds would have a density of (11.35 x 1.10) ==== 12.49 g/cc.
Based on all appearances, both Federal and Winchester appear to be truthful in their advertising here.

By contrast, if the Hevi-13's were "as advertised" in being 20% heavier than lead, they would need to weigh closer to 14 g/cc (13.62 to be exact). If they weight any less than 13 g/cc, this is truly deceptive advertising by the "Hevi" people.

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#3163847 - 02/14/13 11:50 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Rockhound
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http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Hevi-Shot-6-7-lbs_bag/productinfo/0557006/

And yet more evidence that hevi is not 13g/cc

Check out product details at the bottom

Product Type: Non-toxic shot; USFWS approved Load Data:Hevi-Shot Manual Specs:Available sizes are B, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7-1/2, and 9 Density: Averages approximately 11.6 grams/cubic cm
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#3163850 - 02/14/13 11:54 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Rockhound]
Wes Parrish
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Registered: 06/12/02
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Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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As an aside, the common "understanding" of many, including myself, HAD been that "Hevi" shot was about 12 g/cc, while "Hevi-13" shot was about 13 g/cc.

After all, for years now, "Hevi-13" has been, AND STILL IS AS OF TODAY, advertised as being 20% heavier than lead.

And during these same years, Winchester has consistently stated their "Xtendeds" were 10% heavier than lead, while Federals said their "Heavyweights" were 1/3 heavier than lead.

If it's true that Hevi-13 weighs any less than 12.50 g/cc, I don't see any defense they could have against being purposefully fraudulent in their advertising.

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#3163864 - 02/14/13 12:05 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
If this is true, Hevi-13 is being very deceptive. Outright fraud.
My thoughts exactly! With that said, I cannot complain one bit about the performance of the Mag Blends in the field based on my personal experiences with it.
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3163866 - 02/14/13 12:11 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Rockhound]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Rockhound
And yet more evidence that hevi is not 13g/cc
That is Hevi-Shot, not Hevi-13. I have never thought or believed Hevi-Shot was 13g/cc, but the Hevi-13 name implies 13g/cc. The fact EM markets it 20% denser than lead (11.3g/cc) as well as tell the consumer that it is when one makes an inquiry, is very deceptive. If EM would not market it 20% denser and remove the 13 from the name, it would not be so alarming to the consumer when the truth is known.
_________________________
Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3163868 - 02/14/13 12:12 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
As an aside, the common "understanding" of many, including myself, HAD been that "Hevi" shot was about 12 g/cc, while "Hevi-13" shot was about 13 g/cc.

After all, for years now, "Hevi-13" has been, AND STILL IS AS OF TODAY, advertised as being 20% heavier than lead.

And during these same years, Winchester has consistently stated their "Xtendeds" were 10% heavier than lead, while Federals said their "Heavyweights" were 1/3 heavier than lead.

If it's true that Hevi-13 weighs any less than 12.50 g/cc, I don't see any defense they could have against being purposefully fraudulent in their advertising.
My thoughts exactly Wes.
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3163914 - 02/14/13 12:51 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Andy S.]
Rockhound
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Registered: 04/04/11
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 Originally Posted By: Andy S.
 Originally Posted By: Rockhound
And yet more evidence that hevi is not 13g/cc
That is Hevi-Shot, not Hevi-13. I have never thought or believed Hevi-Shot was 13g/cc, but the Hevi-13 name implies 13g/cc. The fact EM markets it 20% denser than lead (11.3g/cc) as well as tell the consumer that it is when one makes an inquiry, is very deceptive. If EM would not market it 20% denser and remove the 13 from the name, it would not be so alarming to the consumer when the truth is known.


As i and you have stated i cant complain with the performance, the shot in these bags are the same hevi-shot or hevi-13 that are loaded in E.M.'s shells. Check out the reply over there from toasty.
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#3163999 - 02/14/13 02:26 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Rockhound]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
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 Originally Posted By: Rockhound
Check out the reply over there from toasty.
I read his reply, however, I did exactly what he said to do. I called EM's headquarters in Oregon three years running, but I got a different answer every time. In essence, they have not freely admitted it to me the three times I have inquired. Regardless, I believe Hal and Clark when it comes to this subject. Thanks Rock.
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3164407 - 02/14/13 09:05 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Andy S.]
Rockhound
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Registered: 04/04/11
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Loc: Lawrence Co. TN

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 Originally Posted By: Andy S.
 Originally Posted By: Rockhound
Check out the reply over there from toasty.
I read his reply, however, I did exactly what he said to do. I called EM's headquarters in Oregon three years running, but I got a different answer every time. In essence, they have not freely admitted it to me the three times I have inquired. Regardless, I believe Hal and Clark when it comes to this subject. Thanks Rock.


I dunno about calling them, bit as far as the testing goes hes rigjt on up there with hal and them
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#3164561 - 02/15/13 03:44 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Rockhound]
Uncle Jesse
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This is not an isolated problem with hevi 13. It's across the board with everything they sell. The worst I've seen so far is the Hevi Metal. They're all over the place with what's in that shell.

There seems to be a pattern though, they introduce a shell with high density and after a couple years they'll decrease the density of the shot without making it known or reducing price.
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#3164563 - 02/15/13 04:00 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Uncle Jesse
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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
Well, if I get a "round tuit", will be pretty easy for me to conclude for myself whether Hevi-13 is heavier (or not) than Winchester Xtendeds. I have both in #6 shot, so I presume if I counted out say 100 pellets of each, then weigh them on my powder scale, will be pretty obvious whether they're of the same weight or if the Hevi-13 is heavier?

Don't think I can do an "apples-to-apples" weight test on the Mag Blends, but anyone see any reason why simply weighing 100 pellets of #6's from each brand wouldn't be conclusive as whether Hevi-13 is the same or heavier than Win. Xtendeds?


In addition to the problems mention with hevi shot, I'm thinking that the Winchester XR's shot is not true to size, in a way. For example, 6 shot XR is smaller than #6 lead but they weigh the same.
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#3164646 - 02/15/13 06:48 AM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Uncle Jesse]
Wes Parrish
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Registered: 06/12/02
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Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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#6 shot sized shot SHOULD be the same diameter no matter from what it's made or its density.

I realize that the "hevi" brand pellets are not uniform, but counting out a significant number of what is supposed to average #6 in size SHOULD show whether two different brands are of approximately the same density or have about a 10% difference in their density. A smaller difference in density might be hard to conclude.

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#3165391 - 02/15/13 06:13 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Uncle Jesse
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Some number information

This is a very interesting read.
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#3165428 - 02/15/13 06:47 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Uncle Jesse]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19470
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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Very interesting.

Despite those slight differences in various brands of #6 sized shot, none of those differences were far enough off to even approach calling them a #5 or #5 1/2 or a #6 1/2 or a #7. And some of the difference are attributable to copper plating (or lack of).

Very interesting and well done testing.
Not to mention, further reinforces that the advertising for H-13 shells has been misleading.

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#3165574 - 02/15/13 08:55 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8090
Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
Very interesting and well done testing.
Not to mention, further reinforces that the advertising for H-13 shells has been misleading.
My thoughts exactly, thanks for sharing.
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3165620 - 02/15/13 09:40 PM Re: Xtended range or Hevi-shot mag blend? [Re: Andy S.]
Rockhound
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Registered: 04/04/11
Posts: 3091
Loc: Lawrence Co. TN

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 Originally Posted By: Andy S.
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
Very interesting and well done testing.
Not to mention, further reinforces that the advertising for H-13 shells has been misleading.
My thoughts exactly, thanks for sharing.


x3 ill have to buy a box of the 2-3/4 or 3-1/2 #6 Winchester xtended and cut them open and play with it as i have not messed with any of it personally, i aint messing with my 3" mags because they are discontinued. Ill see what i can do in a week or so.
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