Tndeer Logo

Page all of 3 123>
Topic Options
#3156205 - 02/08/13 12:29 PM Construction Q/Concrete
OldFart
6 Point


Registered: 09/01/00
Posts: 999
Loc: Aurora, CO 80012 USA

Offline
I realize this is way off but I've seen other Qs that are "off" too.
I'm hoping some of you have construction experience, amateur or professional. I'm wanting to pour some concrete to set a 4 X 4 in a hole. Hole is approx 6 in in diameter and 3 ft deep. The purpose is to use the 4 X 4 as a support for a mast used to support a vertical ham radio antenna. See, I told you this Q was off.
I'm wondering about concrete seting up in cold weather. Altho we have had some days lately in 50s, the lows get into freezing down into the teens at night. I have heard that concrete generates heat when curing?? Aren't there additives for the concrete mix to aid in this? I don't want the concrete to freeze or crack and have a big mess on my hands.
Thanks Ray

Top
#3156240 - 02/08/13 12:58 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: OldFart]
TAFKAP
14 Point


Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 9541
Loc: Memphis

Offline
The additives are referred to as "ad mixtures", and they will allow for a quick setup in less-than-desirable temperatures. But since typical concrete requires 28 days of cure time to develop 100% of its compressive strength, you may want to consider waiting until after the final freeze day.

Another thing to consider would be to utilize some rebar in your foundation. As the antenna sways, it'll generate a tension force in the concrete, causing it to crack and disintegrate.

Another consideration is to not set the wood directly into the concrete. Perhaps a 6" I.D. PVC pipe set into your concrete will provide the base. You can then separately mortar in the 4x4. That way, when the elements finally overcome the wood, it'll be much more simple to replace the post, rather than the entire footing.

Finally, guy wires will be your best friend.
_________________________
Everything important in life was learned from Mary Jo Kopechne.

Top
#3156242 - 02/08/13 12:58 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: OldFart]
EastTNHunter
10 Point


Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 2893
Loc: Rhea Co., TN

Offline
Just pour it and cover it with plastic. The ground will provide insulation subgrade, and as you stated, the concrete will provide some "heat" of its own. The plastic should help to keep it from freezing on the top. It should cure slower in the cold, making for a stronger set, in theory.
Top
#3156255 - 02/08/13 01:12 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: EastTNHunter]
OldFart
6 Point


Registered: 09/01/00
Posts: 999
Loc: Aurora, CO 80012 USA

Offline
My final freeze date would prob be in early May. How much do these additives really help? When I dug the hole with a post hole digger the ground was frozen solid about 10 inches down.
Then hit hardpack clay. Only by pouring water into hole, waiting awhile and then digging deeper, did I succeed in getting to 3 ft. Thanks For help! Ray

Top
#3156265 - 02/08/13 01:19 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: OldFart]
Grizzly Johnson
Team Grizzly
16 Point


Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 15243
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
Dig the bottom of the hole out wider than the top.... this will keep the ground freezing/frost creep from pulling the post up out of the ground.
_________________________
But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Top
#3156319 - 02/08/13 02:11 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: OldFart]
TAFKAP
14 Point


Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 9541
Loc: Memphis

Offline
 Originally Posted By: OldFart
My final freeze date would prob be in early May. How much do these additives really help? When I dug the hole with a post hole digger the ground was frozen solid about 10 inches down.
Then hit hardpack clay. Only by pouring water into hole, waiting awhile and then digging deeper, did I succeed in getting to 3 ft. Thanks For help! Ray


I think your answer will be different, depening on if you're talking to a contractor, concrete salesman, or a concrete finisher. To my knowledge, Redi-Mix guys pretty much tweak their mixtures to the environment they're working in. I think the modern ad mixtures are pretty reliable. But I'm a little old-school when it comes to concrete....(4) ingredients: portland cement, fine aggregate, coarse aggregate, and water.
_________________________
Everything important in life was learned from Mary Jo Kopechne.

Top
#3156441 - 02/08/13 03:44 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: TAFKAP]
in the dog house!
14 Point


Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 9363
Loc: west tn

Offline
I have been finishing for over 25 years. As long as it isnt below 30 the night after you pour you will be fine. Just cover it with some plastic and hay, and then another layer of plastic. Leave it for 48 Hours and you will be fine. The above post about making it larger at the bottom is a good idea as well as drilling some holes through your post for re-bar to tie the post to the concrete is a must. If you are pouring saccrete I would buy a bag of portland cement to add to it for added strength. You could also a dd calcium carbonate to it to help it to set faster, but not to much or it will weaken the mix, about 2% is max.
_________________________
Luck is where preparation and opportunity meet



Μολων λαβε

Top
#3156620 - 02/08/13 06:34 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: in the dog house!]
TRIGGER
Michael Waddell stunt double
10 Point


Registered: 09/25/11
Posts: 3857
Loc: Cunningham TN

Offline
Your hole is not big enough. A 6" hole with a 3.5" square post only gives you 1 1/4" on each side of the post for concrete and less at the points. You need at least 4" around the post in all directions IMO. And your over thinking the temp thing. I poured sixty yards for a driveway today. It's going to be around twenty seven tonight. There will be no problems. If it makes you feel better to cover it it sure wont hurt. With temps in the mid twenties your concrete won't freeze the first night but may the second or third night if the temps stay down.
Top
#3156706 - 02/08/13 07:35 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: TRIGGER]
BigAl
16 Point


Registered: 07/31/01
Posts: 19093
Loc: Fayette County, TN US

Offline
If you're doing your own mix, just don't overdo the water. The concrete will actually pull moisture from the ground. Too much water and you lose a lot of strength.
_________________________
Walls: Leading the way outdoors.

Top
#3156911 - 02/08/13 10:10 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: BigAl]
OldFart
6 Point


Registered: 09/01/00
Posts: 999
Loc: Aurora, CO 80012 USA

Offline
1. Hope everyone has noticed I am in Aurora, CO, a burb of Denver. A bit different fm TN.

2. I will enlarge the hole

3. Can a store like Home Depot or Lowe's cut rebar? It looks like tough stuff?

4. The 9 ft 4 X 4 will have my mast connected by 2 bolts. That way I can pivot the mast to raise and lower it to work on it.

Thanks for all the good info! Ray

Top
#3156948 - 02/08/13 10:41 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: OldFart]
TAFKAP
14 Point


Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 9541
Loc: Memphis

Offline
Do you have an angle grinder? Do you know anyone that does?

Rebar is mild steel, so it's not difficult to cut if you have access to a grinder, band-saw, or a torch. I doubt a hardware store would offer that service.
_________________________
Everything important in life was learned from Mary Jo Kopechne.

Top
#3156967 - 02/08/13 10:57 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: OldFart]
OldFart
6 Point


Registered: 09/01/00
Posts: 999
Loc: Aurora, CO 80012 USA

Offline

I have an 8 ft, 3in diameter galvanized pipe that I could use rather than the 4 X 4. Actually wanted 6 ft above ground so I would be 1 ft short. I also just noticed it will be getting down in the very low teens for a low for a few days. 11 deg one night. Think I'll hold off. Thanks Ray


Edited by OldFart (02/08/13 11:06 PM)

Top
#3157086 - 02/09/13 07:19 AM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: OldFart]
eweisner
8 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 1883
Loc: Portland, TN

Offline
May as well throw my own wrench in the monkey works. I'm no fan of dumping dry concrete in a hole. You can create your own human powered concrete mixer. Get yourself some 6 mil construction bags pour your dry concrete in the bag and spray with water. Twist the top and start kneading and rolling the bag around on the ground . Check periodically to see if you have added enough water. You can do a standard bag of quick Crete in a few minutes.
_________________________
"Sometimes you find yourself in the middle of no where; and sometimes, in the middle of no where you find yourself"

http://confessionsofanovicebowhunter.wordpress.com

Top
#3157097 - 02/09/13 07:40 AM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: eweisner]
knight88
10 Point


Registered: 09/28/06
Posts: 3220
Loc: SE Arizona and Hardin county

Offline
Ray, I am not sure how high your vertical will be but there is very good advice in the posts above. I personally would use pipe rather than a 4X4 for support. Good luck, hope to see you on the air. I am KC7KS...73s
_________________________
Finally at home in Hardin county, thank the Lord...

Top
#3157990 - 02/09/13 09:51 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: OldFart]
TAFKAP
14 Point


Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 9541
Loc: Memphis

Offline
 Originally Posted By: OldFart

I have an 8 ft, 3in diameter galvanized pipe that I could use rather than the 4 X 4. Actually wanted 6 ft above ground so I would be 1 ft short. I also just noticed it will be getting down in the very low teens for a low for a few days. 11 deg one night. Think I'll hold off. Thanks Ray


When in doubt, I always go with steel...especially since you have a galv. pipe. What's the wall thickness? If it's not tall enough, you can always bolt or weld a new section to it.
_________________________
Everything important in life was learned from Mary Jo Kopechne.

Top
#3158026 - 02/09/13 10:01 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: knight88]
OldFart
6 Point


Registered: 09/01/00
Posts: 999
Loc: Aurora, CO 80012 USA

Offline
Vertical will be 24 1/2 ft tall with top hat of 4 ft diameter on top. Top hat is just 3 tv antenna elements That are a bit over 4 ft each. Will prob use 8in by 8 in plate to mount elements on. This should simulate an antenna 33 ft high with little loss of efficiency or bandwidth.
The vertical is simply wire elements for 40, 20 and 10 with 40m element also serving for 15m. These wires are attached to parts of 2 X 3s and 2 X 2s making up the 24 1/2 ft length. For safety, I have the bare wire 40m element covered by PVC. All the other elements are insulated wire. I plan to have the pivot point approx 6 ft up fm ground level for the vertical mast so I can raise and lower it for working on/adjusting/changing it. Mast weighs less than 25 lbs.Hope this helps to picture the set up.
Physically I could use the pipe but electrically it would detune the antenna badly.
Thanks Ray

Top
#3158045 - 02/09/13 10:12 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: OldFart]
TAFKAP
14 Point


Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 9541
Loc: Memphis

Offline
Ahhhhh.....It does, but not entirely. I can picture my grandpa's old rig, and somewhat grasp the concept.

Stick with the 4-by then ;\)
_________________________
Everything important in life was learned from Mary Jo Kopechne.

Top
#3160484 - 02/11/13 10:21 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: OldFart]
OldFart
6 Point


Registered: 09/01/00
Posts: 999
Loc: Aurora, CO 80012 USA

Offline
I went to Lowe's tonight to price some items and to ck diff kinds of concrete. There was one kind that dried in 3 to 4 hours (believe it was called Quickcrete), although it recommended you "brace" whatever was sent in it for up to 5 days. Have any had experience with this type of concrete and what are its drawbacks?
Also, anybody have an idea where to price copper flashing?
Thanks Ray

Top
#3160528 - 02/11/13 11:13 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: OldFart]
OldFart
6 Point


Registered: 09/01/00
Posts: 999
Loc: Aurora, CO 80012 USA

Offline
I could use gravel for now and maybe or maybe not use concrete later??? Thanks Ray
Top
#3161399 - 02/12/13 04:54 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: OldFart]
TAFKAP
14 Point


Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 9541
Loc: Memphis

Offline
 Originally Posted By: OldFart
I went to Lowe's tonight to price some items and to ck diff kinds of concrete. There was one kind that dried in 3 to 4 hours (believe it was called Quickcrete), although it recommended you "brace" whatever was sent in it for up to 5 days. Have any had experience with this type of concrete and what are its drawbacks?
Also, anybody have an idea where to price copper flashing?
Thanks Ray


I would imagine that QuickCrete is instituting some sort of AdMixture into their recipe to claim a full cure in 5-days. To me, concrete is like a stew. There are ways to make it fast, but it's really only good if you slow cook it, then eat it the next day.
_________________________
Everything important in life was learned from Mary Jo Kopechne.

Top
#3161400 - 02/12/13 04:55 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: OldFart]
TAFKAP
14 Point


Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 9541
Loc: Memphis

Offline
 Originally Posted By: OldFart
I could use gravel for now and maybe or maybe not use concrete later??? Thanks Ray


I wouldn't expect the gravel to hold long enough. Plus, it'll be no fun getting it out of the hole when you're ready for concrete.
_________________________
Everything important in life was learned from Mary Jo Kopechne.

Top
#3181695 - 03/02/13 09:36 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: TAFKAP]
OldFart
6 Point


Registered: 09/01/00
Posts: 999
Loc: Aurora, CO 80012 USA

Offline
Decided to and used Quikrete Fast Set today. Temp was supposed to get to 62deg. Was prob about 50 when I finished. Dug hole 36in.
Used exactly as much water as recommended. They recommended one gallon of water per bag after pouring dry.I did hand mix a small amount so I could build up about 3 in over ground level at the base to help in water run off. All the water did soak in after a long time (maybe an hour)but it took many applications pouring a bit at a time. Hope it doesn't get too cold tonight. They rate it as 400 lbs/sq in after a couple hours and 1000 after 24 hrs. I drilled my holes in the 4 X 4 before doing concrete so as to not disturb leveling and/or set(now or later).
Hope it works! Ray

Top
#3182038 - 03/03/13 10:58 AM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: OldFart]
TAFKAP
14 Point


Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 9541
Loc: Memphis

Offline
Good luck...post pics when you're done!
_________________________
Everything important in life was learned from Mary Jo Kopechne.

Top
#3182058 - 03/03/13 11:24 AM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: OldFart]
brmaster
6 Point


Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 845
Loc: TN, Shelbyville

Offline
You do need bigger hole that 6". You should have close to that 6" minimum clear on each side for strength, 3ft deep is fine.
Now, if your worreied about freezing,
Sink pole, level pole, then dry pour 2 bags of concrete in hole, if your ground is that wet, the concrete will soak up the water needed, during the pour make sure that you use something like a 1 x 2 to make sure you dont have any air pockets, this is done by pushing the stick into the concrete moving it up and down all the way around, just as you would do if you were pouring mixed concrete.
I have set a many of post this way, walking bridges standing as tall as 10ft with 4 x 4 and 6 x6 post, they are still standing today, with water running over them all during the rainy season.
_________________________
Guns dont kill people, they only provide a path
Legal gun owners will be punished because the government doesnt know how to keep the criminals from buying them.

Top
#3183125 - 03/04/13 02:05 PM Re: Construction Q/Concrete [Re: TAFKAP]
OldFart
6 Point


Registered: 09/01/00
Posts: 999
Loc: Aurora, CO 80012 USA

Offline
I did enlarge hole to approx 10 in and belled out the bottom, a lot. Post seems to be holding well and is still "level" I am still keeping it braced on 4 sides, however. We are expecting winds of 25 mph today. This Fast set stuff is supposed to set so you only have 20 minutes "working" time. It looks pretty well set up on top but of course can't tell about down in the hole. It's been since about 5pm Saturday.
Guess it's a bit late for asking, but has anyone had experience with "Fast Set" Quickrete?
I have some layers of cloth plus a raincoat covering it now
to keep it fm getting wet and maybe provide a bit of insulation. Later, I plan to waterproof the top. I understand that you should not waterprood for quite a few days, prob to allow it to "set" better.
Thanks Ray

Top
Page all of 3 123>


Moderator:  RUGER, Unicam, gtk, Tennessee Todd, Lakeland Charlie, Cuttin Caller, CBU93, stretch, TurkeyBurd, MAN, Bobby G, Kimber45, Crappie Luck 
Hop to:
Top Posters
4105512
RUGER
86995
Deer Assassin
65403
BSK
61009
Crappie Luck
51376
spitndrum
Newest Members
Mik475, AaronB, Bad Wolf, jw3783, Jesse91
13279 Registered Users
Who's Online
87 registered (TN_Greenhead, caretaker, Ebby, Beekeeper, BuckDropper, Grandslam11, 13 invisible) and 132 anonymous users online.
Forum Stats
13279 Members
42 Forums
93142 Topics
1088671 Posts

Max Online: 788 @ 11/11/13 08:06 PM
Moon Phase
CURRENT MOON
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
Forum Donations
The TnDeer.Com Deer Talk Forum is for Tennessee Deer Hunters by Tennessee Deer Hunters. If you enjoy using our Talk Forum and would like to contribute to help in it's up-keep. Just submit your contribution by clicking on the DONATE button below and paying with PayPal or a major credit card. Any amount is much appreciated. Thanks for your support!

TN Burn Safe

Generated in 0.094 seconds in which 0.001 seconds were spent on a total of 14 queries. Zlib compression enabled.