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#3153689 - 02/06/13 10:28 AM Drone strikes on US Citizens
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 13547
Loc: Tennessee

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Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americans

http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/201...-americans?lite

Article 3, Section 3, US Constitution. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

The Constitution defines only one crime, that of treason, and tells us that it requires (1) the Congress to be involved and (2) the Courts (article 3 is the Judiciary) to be involved and gain a "conviction" based on witnesses or confession in OPEN court before (3) the Executive takes action. Maybe the Founders felt it was important to clearly define that particular crime for some reason because it is the only one that got specifically mentioned in the Constitution itself.

http://armaborealis.blogspot.com/2013/02/drone-strikes-targeting-americans.html
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#3153713 - 02/06/13 10:52 AM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: Poser]
MUP
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Sounds similar to the British ROE during our fight for independence, minus the drones of course.
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MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

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#3153719 - 02/06/13 10:56 AM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: Poser]
FLTENNHUNTER1
16 Point


Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 16574
Loc: Tampa FL

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 Originally Posted By: Poser
Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americans

http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/201...-americans?lite

Article 3, Section 3, US Constitution. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

The Constitution defines only one crime, that of treason, and tells us that it requires (1) the Congress to be involved and (2) the Courts (article 3 is the Judiciary) to be involved and gain a "conviction" based on witnesses or confession in OPEN court before (3) the Executive takes action. Maybe the Founders felt it was important to clearly define that particular crime for some reason because it is the only one that got specifically mentioned in the Constitution itself.

http://armaborealis.blogspot.com/2013/02/drone-strikes-targeting-americans.html


Not to hijack your thread, but how is sending the Muslim Brotherhood 20 F-16's and 200 Tanks not treason?

This is a touchy subject for me. I want to think we all deserve due process, but if you leave this country and declare war on us, I think you should be stripped of your citizenship immediately. If you happen to get smoked by a Hellfire missile in Yemen, OH WELL.

But, if you are in the USA and do the same thing, it is your right to have Due Process. You have the right to face your accusers, and you are innocent until proven guilty.

I have not read the NDAA if that is what you are referring to...
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#3153732 - 02/06/13 11:15 AM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: FLTENNHUNTER1]
Hangnail
14 Point


Registered: 11/30/00
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I'm with FLTENNHUNTER1 on this. Outside the U.S., ya better duck if you're against us. The first drone strike in the U.S. against a citizen could be the last straw with some folks. Hope we never have to find that out.
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#3153748 - 02/06/13 11:26 AM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: Hangnail]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 13547
Loc: Tennessee

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Yes, but there is nothing mentioned in the Constitution about foreign soil. Its a very specifically worded statement and no other administration has been willing to take that step.
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#3153787 - 02/06/13 11:59 AM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: Poser]
waynesworld
8 Point


Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 1489
Loc: Mboro, Tennessee

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Poser as you say that there is no mention about foreign soil the fact is that our Constitution is the law of our land not some other land. Due process is only protected in the us if you are in a foreign country you have to go by there law in most cases. In the case of being at a constant state of war agenst terriost when a us citizen joins the other side it is no longer a crime but just part of the war. That is why we would not have to try people before we kill them. I do think we should have a wanted deed or alive site on our federal web sit and if you are on it and think it is in error you can surrender to the authorities to clear up any mistakes. And the if you look on the site and notice the guy you play poker with every week is on there you may not want to be around him much \:\)
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#3153827 - 02/06/13 12:48 PM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: waynesworld]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 13547
Loc: Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: waynesworld
Poser as you say that there is no mention about foreign soil the fact is that our Constitution is the law of our land not some other land. Due process is only protected in the us if you are in a foreign country you have to go by there law in most cases. In the case of being at a constant state of war agenst terriost when a us citizen joins the other side it is no longer a crime but just part of the war. That is why we would not have to try people before we kill them. I do think we should have a wanted deed or alive site on our federal web sit and if you are on it and think it is in error you can surrender to the authorities to clear up any mistakes. And the if you look on the site and notice the guy you play poker with every week is on there you may not want to be around him much \:\)


But the argument here is who gets to decide? As it stands, the Obama administration appears to be ready to serve as the judge, jury and executioner. If a US Citizen takes up arms against the US, and this is openly determined in congress, as described in the constitution, then so be it. But, you're only one step away from allowing the administration to make drone strikes and assassinations on US citizens on domestic soil. How far are you willing to go and, are you willing to put these decisions in the hands of the president with no scrutiny, debate or accountability?
_________________________
It doesn't have to be fun to be fun.

Wild & crazy, can't be stopped. Only the strong will survive.

Keep your knife sharp and your skillet greasy.

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#3153845 - 02/06/13 01:00 PM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: Poser]
MUP
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46480
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

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 Originally Posted By: Poser
 Originally Posted By: waynesworld
Poser as you say that there is no mention about foreign soil the fact is that our Constitution is the law of our land not some other land. Due process is only protected in the us if you are in a foreign country you have to go by there law in most cases. In the case of being at a constant state of war agenst terriost when a us citizen joins the other side it is no longer a crime but just part of the war. That is why we would not have to try people before we kill them. I do think we should have a wanted deed or alive site on our federal web sit and if you are on it and think it is in error you can surrender to the authorities to clear up any mistakes. And the if you look on the site and notice the guy you play poker with every week is on there you may not want to be around him much \:\)


But the argument here is who gets to decide? As it stands, the Obama administration appears to be ready to serve as the judge, jury and executioner. If a US Citizen takes up arms against the US, and this is openly determined in congress, as described in the constitution, then so be it. But, you're only one step away from allowing the administration to make drone strikes and assassinations on US citizens on domestic soil. How far are you willing to go and, are you willing to put these decisions in the hands of the president with no scrutiny, debate or accountability?


Not the admin as a whole, but Obama himself will have the authority I believe.
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MUP

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#3153868 - 02/06/13 01:22 PM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: MUP]
Hangnail
14 Point


Registered: 11/30/00
Posts: 7579
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN

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With the way this particular administration spins and contorts the constitution, if a known enemy of the state is a citizen and is brave enough to give us the finger while out of the country, all's fair in love and drones. If they target citizens in the U.S., that's another story. If I were Ted Nugent, Rush or Mark Levine, I'd give my passport to someone I won't see again for at least another four years. That's how much I wouldn't trust the government.
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#3153935 - 02/06/13 02:18 PM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: Hangnail]
TNDeerGuy
12 Point


Registered: 11/28/06
Posts: 6170
Loc: Old Hickory/Mt.Juliet, TN

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We all know that waterboarding terrorists for information that saves American lives is soooo much worse than the illegal murder of American citizens! Obama should be tried murder and held to the same set of laws that the rest of us adhere to everyday—but of course, we all know that will never happen to the annointed one!
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#3153945 - 02/06/13 02:29 PM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: TNDeerGuy]
Bone Collector
14 Point


Registered: 09/09/09
Posts: 9646
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN

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Seems to me that they can decide that you are a terrorist and kill you if you decide to stand up to them.....
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#3153965 - 02/06/13 02:49 PM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: Bone Collector]
MUP
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Registered: 08/01/07
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Loc: Just North of Chatt-town

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 Originally Posted By: Bone Collector
Seems to me that they can decide that you are a terrorist and kill you if you decide to stand up to them.....


Exactly.
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MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

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#3153975 - 02/06/13 03:00 PM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: TNDeerGuy]
Mudbone
10 Point


Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 3764
Loc: Old hickory Tn

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 Originally Posted By: TNDeerGuy
We all know that waterboarding terrorists for information that saves American lives is soooo much worse than the illegal murder of American citizens! Obama should be tried murder and held to the same set of laws that the rest of us adhere to everyday—but of course, we all know that will never happen to the annointed one!
amen!
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#3154046 - 02/06/13 04:24 PM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: Mudbone]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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Registered: 01/29/03
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It's OK - Jessie Jackson said we would be able to shoot them down with our scary .223's \:\)

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#3154065 - 02/06/13 04:45 PM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: Crappie Luck]
Bowdacious
Skillet
16 Point


Registered: 09/01/00
Posts: 16350
Loc: over here

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So that's how they will get rid of opposition. Killing at will. Maybe they think its okay since they will use a faceless, nameless machine to do it.
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#3154072 - 02/06/13 04:52 PM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: Bowdacious]
TeamMainStreet
10 Point


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 2629
Loc: Union County,Tn

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 Originally Posted By: Bowdacious
So that's how they will get rid of opposition. Killing at will. Maybe they think its okay since they will use a faceless, nameless machine to do it.



Yup. I heard it said last night by some jacktard from the whitehouse that it was legal and get this, ethical.

The way I understood it, if they have reason to SUSPECT you as a terrorist or Al-Qaida leader then they would have no problem sending a drone to dispatch you, whether you are on US soil or not.

The problem I have with it is, what will there criteria be for being a terrorist?
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#3154080 - 02/06/13 05:01 PM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: TeamMainStreet]
Crappie Luck Moderator
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 Originally Posted By: TeamMainStreet

The problem I have with it is, what will there criteria be for being a terrorist?


According to DHS, good reasons for killing you and blowing your dang house up can be:

Expressions of libertarian philosophies (statements, bumper stickers)
Second Amendment-oriented views (NRA or gun club membership, holding a CCW permit)
Survivalist literature (fictional books such as “Patriots” and “One Second After” are mentioned by name)
Self-sufficiency (stockpiling food, ammo, hand tools, medical supplies)
Fear of economic collapse (buying gold and barter items)
Religious views concerning the book of Revelation (apocalypse, anti-Christ)
Expressed fears of Big Brother or big government
Homeschooling
Declarations of Constitutional rights and civil liberties
Belief in a New World Order conspiracy

There's a long list of reasons to blow you and your home up here:

http://start.umd.edu/start/publications/research_briefs/LaFree_Bersani_HotSpotsOfUSTerrorism.pdf
_________________________
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#3154083 - 02/06/13 05:04 PM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: Crappie Luck]
TeamMainStreet
10 Point


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 2629
Loc: Union County,Tn

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Uh huh, that's what I thought.
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Dont tread on me



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#3154097 - 02/06/13 05:13 PM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: TeamMainStreet]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 13547
Loc: Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: TeamMainStreet
Uh huh, that's what I thought.


Which is where I was coming from on my position as well. Its easy to say "kill the bad guys" until someone decided you are the bad guy.
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It doesn't have to be fun to be fun.

Wild & crazy, can't be stopped. Only the strong will survive.

Keep your knife sharp and your skillet greasy.

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#3154103 - 02/06/13 05:18 PM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: Crappie Luck]
TX300mag
Pea Picker
14 Point


Registered: 11/10/02
Posts: 8968
Loc: Crosby, TX

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Crappie Luck
 Originally Posted By: TeamMainStreet

The problem I have with it is, what will there criteria be for being a terrorist?


According to DHS, good reasons for killing you and blowing your dang house up can be:

Expressions of libertarian philosophies (statements, bumper stickers)
Second Amendment-oriented views (NRA or gun club membership, holding a CCW permit)
Survivalist literature (fictional books such as “Patriots” and “One Second After” are mentioned by name)
Self-sufficiency (stockpiling food, ammo, hand tools, medical supplies)
Fear of economic collapse (buying gold and barter items)
Religious views concerning the book of Revelation (apocalypse, anti-Christ)
Expressed fears of Big Brother or big government
Homeschooling
Declarations of Constitutional rights and civil liberties
Belief in a New World Order conspiracy

There's a long list of reasons to blow you and your home up here:

http://start.umd.edu/start/publications/research_briefs/LaFree_Bersani_HotSpotsOfUSTerrorism.pdf


Uh-oh!

Kids are watching the skies for me right now.
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#3154235 - 02/06/13 07:00 PM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: TX300mag]
DaveB
10 Point


Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 4764
Loc: Shelby County

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Somewhere, a US Soldier or Airman will have to push a button to launch that missle and right then and there, the process will begin to unravel because he will stand up and defy orders.

I may be stupid on this point but I don't believe a US Soldier in any of the Forces will ever fire on a US Citizen in the USA who is not actively engaged in a criminal act and don't bring up Kent State.

And should it happen, I think there will be hell to pay on such a scale it would immediately result in a near unaminous vote to impeach.

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#3154316 - 02/06/13 07:43 PM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: TNDeerGuy]
landman
10 Point


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2746
Loc: TN & Western KY

content Online
Guess y'all know they are flying out at Ft C
now
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#3154580 - 02/07/13 04:52 AM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: DaveB]
MUP
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Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 46480
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 Originally Posted By: DaveB
Somewhere, a US Soldier or Airman will have to push a button to launch that missle and right then and there, the process will begin to unravel because he will stand up and defy orders.

I may be stupid on this point but I don't believe a US Soldier in any of the Forces will ever fire on a US Citizen in the USA who is not actively engaged in a criminal act and don't bring up Kent State.

And should it happen, I think there will be hell to pay on such a scale it would immediately result in a near unaminous vote to impeach.


I sincerely hope you are correct Dave, but, I would think it would depend on just how much propaganda that soldier had been fed by his superiors, as to "what/who" he actually thinks he is firing upon. Most likely he(the operator) will be fed info relating to his "target", that he is firing upon any number of bad guys, terrorists, extremists, and think he is doing the right thing. Problem is, that from a drone attack, there is no "feeling" involved, just like playing a video game to the controller imo.
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MUP

Amateurs: Built the Ark

Professionals: Built the Titanic

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#3154622 - 02/07/13 06:17 AM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: MUP]
waynesworld
8 Point


Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 1489
Loc: Mboro, Tennessee

Offline
I would say the guy pushing the button will not know who what where of the opp. The fact that there are a lot of levels between a drone strike and the president. A lot of those levels are real American Officers and NCO's. If Rush or Hanaty names came up I would bet there would be some congressional oversight real quick. I am not saying a president has no controls as there needs to be some if we are to go down the road of using drones to fire on Americans. And the fact is this still must be done on foreign soil. If it is in the us the military is strictly limited to what they can do.
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#3154670 - 02/07/13 07:34 AM Re: Drone strikes on US Citizens [Re: waynesworld]
BuckWild
TnDeer Old Timer
12 Point


Registered: 09/27/99
Posts: 5672
Loc: Birdsong Creek

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Those drones are controlled from the Pentagon for the most part...they push the buttons.
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