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#3146625 - 01/31/13 08:11 AM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: 44fanatic]
nodog
4 Point


Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 297
Loc: Ohio

Offline
 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic
 Originally Posted By: nodog
 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic


Anything that is extreme right wing I will discount, I dont view the source as credible unless it is backed with verifiable facts and information.
This is the second time you singled out one particular political group, the first you said you'd fire on them. I don't like what I'm reading if your speaking for the military/government.



First of all, I can not speak for the government or military. I am retired and no longer have any influence. Second, I did not say I would fire, I provided scenarios in which I see the military firing on civilians. I can only speak of what I think would happen today...I can only base my judgements based upon my experience and knowledge.

The reason why I didnt mention left wing media...I dont much care for anything they have to say, yet I will read what is presented to me so that I am informed. As for EXTREME RIGHT WING media and groups, these are the folks who give the liberals their ammunition and make the conservatives look bad. These are the the seperatists who are willing to kill a cop when they are pulled over, the militias who do not pay taxes. If martial law is declared, they are the ones who the government percieves as a threat. And this is why I mentioned the extreme right wing in the shooting scenarios. The extreme right wing media is the one that publishes conspiracy theories, points out only small portions of law and regulation and the extreme impact of that law, not the full law, nor the impact of the full law or the intent of that law in an attempt to push an anti-government agenda. The riots I see coming from the inner city, the Obama lovers and generally parasites to society...maybe I should have declared this group as part of the left wing...but for the most part they are not liberals, they are only out for themselves, influenced by government checks, drugs and laziness.

I dont hate our government, I hate where it is going. I have faith that if we can pull our collective heads out of our arse, we can stop it and very slowly turn it around without a second revolution. I grew up in Montana, I was not raised in the South, I dont have the Southern heritage in my blood. I dont have the family stories of what happened following the Civil War. What I grew up with is a dispassion for our federal government trying to control our lives and saw a state that was always one of the last ones to fall to federal regulation, I am dang proud to have come from that state. I am a thinker, I think about what I am going to say, I think about what I read, I try to present a truth as I see it. I am a devils advocate, I will try to get you to see it from the other side. Am I doing you an injustice by agreeing with you on everything, yes I am. If I do not provide you with what I know or think, you may not know what to expect (generally speaking).


You still singled out one group.
As for hating government, That's like hating rat poison. Your yard and home is a garbage dump, rats take over and you put out rat poison which doesn't solve the problem and kills your pets.

Government is a God given institution put in place on this earth to punish all those that do not love their neighbor. It is not supposed to be good on purpose as further incentive for the people to get along. If people hate where it's going the fix is simple and it can only go there when we abuse each other.


Edited by nodog (01/31/13 08:12 AM)
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#3146639 - 01/31/13 08:28 AM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: nodog]
44fanatic
12 Point


Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 6126
Loc: Clarksville, Montgomery Cnty

Offline
 Originally Posted By: nodog
 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic
 Originally Posted By: nodog
 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic


Anything that is extreme right wing I will discount, I dont view the source as credible unless it is backed with verifiable facts and information.
This is the second time you singled out one particular political group, the first you said you'd fire on them. I don't like what I'm reading if your speaking for the military/government.






First of all, I can not speak for the government or military. I am retired and no longer have any influence. Second, I did not say I would fire, I provided scenarios in which I see the military firing on civilians. I can only speak of what I think would happen today...I can only base my judgements based upon my experience and knowledge.

The reason why I didnt mention left wing media...I dont much care for anything they have to say, yet I will read what is presented to me so that I am informed. As for EXTREME RIGHT WING media and groups, these are the folks who give the liberals their ammunition and make the conservatives look bad. These are the the seperatists who are willing to kill a cop when they are pulled over, the militias who do not pay taxes. If martial law is declared, they are the ones who the government percieves as a threat. And this is why I mentioned the extreme right wing in the shooting scenarios. The extreme right wing media is the one that publishes conspiracy theories, points out only small portions of law and regulation and the extreme impact of that law, not the full law, nor the impact of the full law or the intent of that law in an attempt to push an anti-government agenda. The riots I see coming from the inner city, the Obama lovers and generally parasites to society...maybe I should have declared this group as part of the left wing...but for the most part they are not liberals, they are only out for themselves, influenced by government checks, drugs and laziness.

I dont hate our government, I hate where it is going. I have faith that if we can pull our collective heads out of our arse, we can stop it and very slowly turn it around without a second revolution. I grew up in Montana, I was not raised in the South, I dont have the Southern heritage in my blood. I dont have the family stories of what happened following the Civil War. What I grew up with is a dispassion for our federal government trying to control our lives and saw a state that was always one of the last ones to fall to federal regulation, I am dang proud to have come from that state. I am a thinker, I think about what I am going to say, I think about what I read, I try to present a truth as I see it. I am a devils advocate, I will try to get you to see it from the other side. Am I doing you an injustice by agreeing with you on everything, yes I am. If I do not provide you with what I know or think, you may not know what to expect (generally speaking).


You still singled out one group.
As for hating government, That's like hating rat poison. Your yard and home is a garbage dump, rats take over and you put out rat poison which doesn't solve the problem and kills your pets.

Government is a God given institution put in place on this earth to punish all those that do not love their neighbor. It is not supposed to be good on purpose as further incentive for the people to get along. If people hate where it's going the fix is simple and it can only go there when we abuse each other.


I dont understand what you are trying to say here.


Edited by 44fanatic (01/31/13 08:29 AM)
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Bill

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#3146687 - 01/31/13 09:17 AM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: 44fanatic]
Vermin93
12 Point


Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 5639
Loc: Dallas, TX & Signal Mtn, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic
The reason why I didnt mention left wing media...I dont much care for anything they have to say, yet I will read what is presented to me so that I am informed.


What left wing media do you read and listen to?
_________________________
“The more I read and the more I listen, the more apparent it is that our society suffers from an alarming degree of public ignorance” - Retired Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor

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#3146705 - 01/31/13 09:34 AM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: Vermin93]
44fanatic
12 Point


Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 6126
Loc: Clarksville, Montgomery Cnty

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Vermin93
 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic
The reason why I didnt mention left wing media...I dont much care for anything they have to say, yet I will read what is presented to me so that I am informed.


What left wing media do you read and listen to?


Pretty much what gets posted on here and the MSN home page.
_________________________
Bill

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#3146873 - 01/31/13 12:16 PM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: 44fanatic]
Bambi Buster
14 Point


Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 8515
Loc: Middle Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic
 Originally Posted By: nodog
 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic
 Originally Posted By: nodog
 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic


Anything that is extreme right wing I will discount, I dont view the source as credible unless it is backed with verifiable facts and information.
This is the second time you singled out one particular political group, the first you said you'd fire on them. I don't like what I'm reading if your speaking for the military/government.






First of all, I can not speak for the government or military. I am retired and no longer have any influence. Second, I did not say I would fire, I provided scenarios in which I see the military firing on civilians. I can only speak of what I think would happen today...I can only base my judgements based upon my experience and knowledge.

The reason why I didnt mention left wing media...I dont much care for anything they have to say, yet I will read what is presented to me so that I am informed. As for EXTREME RIGHT WING media and groups, these are the folks who give the liberals their ammunition and make the conservatives look bad. These are the the seperatists who are willing to kill a cop when they are pulled over, the militias who do not pay taxes. If martial law is declared, they are the ones who the government percieves as a threat. And this is why I mentioned the extreme right wing in the shooting scenarios. The extreme right wing media is the one that publishes conspiracy theories, points out only small portions of law and regulation and the extreme impact of that law, not the full law, nor the impact of the full law or the intent of that law in an attempt to push an anti-government agenda. The riots I see coming from the inner city, the Obama lovers and generally parasites to society...maybe I should have declared this group as part of the left wing...but for the most part they are not liberals, they are only out for themselves, influenced by government checks, drugs and laziness.

I dont hate our government, I hate where it is going. I have faith that if we can pull our collective heads out of our arse, we can stop it and very slowly turn it around without a second revolution. I grew up in Montana, I was not raised in the South, I dont have the Southern heritage in my blood. I dont have the family stories of what happened following the Civil War. What I grew up with is a dispassion for our federal government trying to control our lives and saw a state that was always one of the last ones to fall to federal regulation, I am dang proud to have come from that state. I am a thinker, I think about what I am going to say, I think about what I read, I try to present a truth as I see it. I am a devils advocate, I will try to get you to see it from the other side. Am I doing you an injustice by agreeing with you on everything, yes I am. If I do not provide you with what I know or think, you may not know what to expect (generally speaking).


You still singled out one group.
As for hating government, That's like hating rat poison. Your yard and home is a garbage dump, rats take over and you put out rat poison which doesn't solve the problem and kills your pets.

Government is a God given institution put in place on this earth to punish all those that do not love their neighbor. It is not supposed to be good on purpose as further incentive for the people to get along. If people hate where it's going the fix is simple and it can only go there when we abuse each other.


I dont understand what you are trying to say here.


That makes at least two of us.
_________________________
"The American military is like a finely crafted sword. To be effective, it must be wielded by a discerning, skilled and merciless hand."

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#3146898 - 01/31/13 12:46 PM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: Bambi Buster]
Stalkhunter
10 Point


Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 3904
Loc: Knoxville TN

Offline
MSN thats were you get info you are kidding right. Microsoft, Bill Gates.
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#3146904 - 01/31/13 12:52 PM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: Stalkhunter]
44fanatic
12 Point


Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 6126
Loc: Clarksville, Montgomery Cnty

Offline
Trust me, I dont get in depth news from MSN...LOL. Its just my internet home page.

When I am in my vehicle, I should add that I listen to Mike Valentine, Dave Ramsey, and Mike Huckabee.
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Bill

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#3146912 - 01/31/13 12:56 PM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: 44fanatic]
Stalkhunter
10 Point


Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 3904
Loc: Knoxville TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic
Trust me, I dont get in depth news from MSN...LOL. Its just my internet home page.

When I am in my vehicle, I should add that I listen to Mike Valentine, Dave Ramsey, and Mike Huckabee.


ok lol you had me scared
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Semper Fi

Μολων λαβε
I am a cancer Killer.

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#3146928 - 01/31/13 01:11 PM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: Stalkhunter]
44fanatic
12 Point


Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 6126
Loc: Clarksville, Montgomery Cnty

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Stalkhunter
 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic
Trust me, I dont get in depth news from MSN...LOL. Its just my internet home page.

When I am in my vehicle, I should add that I listen to Mike Valentine, Dave Ramsey, and Mike Huckabee.


ok lol you had me scared


So...that leaves my primary news source as...wait for it...TNdeer. If you look at my posts in the political section, you will probably find them primarily focused on the military. If I post on another subject, you will probably find that I did some research before posting and will post links to a law or regulation.
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#3146950 - 01/31/13 01:38 PM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: 44fanatic]
OHVATN
4 Point


Registered: 10/09/12
Posts: 375
Loc: Middle TN

content Online
 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic
 Originally Posted By: in the dog house!
 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic
I see four possible incidents upon which the military would use deadly force:

1) Rioters charging and attacking barricade/control lines
2) Right wing extremists (individuals and groups) who do not believe in the federal government firing upon military and agency positions/facilites. Hostile actions (ambush, sniper) would be initiated by the extremist. Or action being taken by the military based upon intelligence reporting of extremist strongholds and locations with the extremist initiating the hostile action.
3) A "panic" situation where a military member feels threatened and fires upon civilians. This would be investigated and the information gained would then be used and disseminated to troops so that hopefully another similar incident would not happen again.
4) Troops returning fire upon disgruntled individuals. This would be deliberate and directed fire, not a squad opening up with all weapons. This is where the training really kicks in.



Or after a hurricane comes through and the military goes in to disarm the people that are just trying to protect themselves from looting. If that happened here and the tried to take peoples gun around here, well I dont think it would end like it did in LA.


From a military perspective and law enforcement perspective, I would not want armed indivuals ON THE STREET during or following a chaotic event. In their homes or place of business, highly encouraged. After Katrina, the military and other involved agencies would have conducted after action reviews and published "lessons learned". These Lessons Learned and other input would then be placed into policy and regulation as to how to handle similar situations.

This issue has been addressed:
SEC. 3. PROHIBITION ON CONFISCATION OF FIREARMS DURING CERTAIN NATIONAL EMERGENCIES.

Title VII of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5201 et seq.) is amended by adding at the end the following:

`SEC. 706. FIREARMS POLICIES.

`(a) Prohibition on Confiscation of Firearms- No officer or employee of the United States (including any member of the uniformed services), person operating pursuant to or under color of Federal law, receiving Federal funds, under the control of any Federal official, or providing services to such an officer, employee, or other person, while acting in support of relief from a major disaster or emergency, may--
`(1) temporarily or permanently seize, or authorize seizure of, any firearm the possession of which is not prohibited under Federal or State law, other than for forfeiture in compliance with Federal law or as evidence in a criminal investigation;
`(2) require the registration of any firearm for which registration is not required by Federal or State law;
`(3) prohibit the possession of any firearm, or promulgate any rule, regulation, or order prohibiting the possession of any firearm, in any place or by any person where such possession is not otherwise prohibited by Federal or State law; or
`(4) prohibit the carrying of a firearm by any person otherwise authorized to carry firearms under Federal or State law, solely because such person is operating under the direction, control, or supervision of a Federal agency in support of relief from a major disaster or emergency.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:S.+2599:


44f, I appreciate your sincerity and it is apparent you are well intentioned. And, thank you for your service to our country.

I'm sorry, but I just don't take much comfort with this federal law. Indeed, I would submit that it falls within the long list of the "laws of unintended consequence." For practical purposes, take paragraph (1) for instance. Who determines if the weapon in my home or on my person is a "firearm the possession of which is not prohibited under Federal or State law, other than for forfeiture in compliance with Federal law . . ."? Most likely, it is a U.S. Army or National Guard captain, lieutenant, sargeant, corporal or a local or state police officer without consultation with a JAG or ADA (and I question if those lawyers would know the answer.) That decision is also going to be made in a stressful situation and be spur of the moment. In other words, a "better to ask forgiveness, than permission" situation. Further, under such circumstances, how hard is it going to be for the military or law enforcement officers to determine or allege that confiscation is necessary for use as as "evidence in a criminal investigation"? All it takes is a simple allegation that I have committed a crime - i.e., brandishing a firearm, threatening, resisting arrest, etc., especially in circumstances of public or civil disorder, natural disaster, emergency, etc. As a result, I will be at the sole mercy of the military and/or civilian bureaucracy and it's "after action review," which is absolutely of no protection to my fundamental rights as an American citizen, i.e., right to life, liberty. Even assuming my weapon is returned to me following the "after action review," in a Katrina or similar emergency, my property will have been stolen or destroyed and my family harmed or killed. I'm sure that one could look at each occurrence of firearms confiscation that occurred during the Katrina episode and find within this federal law a basis to support each confiscation.

This law is also very troubling and disconcerting to me and should be to all of us, for it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the Second Amendment. The Second Amendment grants me and you no right to keep and bear arms. I repeat, there is no right granted by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms. No, the right to keep and bear arms is an inalienable right. You and me were born with that right. Depending on your perspective, the right to keep and bear arms is a God-given right or one of natural law (the natural right of self-defense). It is not given to us by the Second Amendment. Rather, the Second Amendment says that our inalienable right to self-defense "shall not be infringed." The Second Amendment protects us.

Given our Second Amendment protection, why is "SEC. 706 FIREARMS POLICIES" needed? It is not. With the conditions and qualifications contained in that law, it is, in my opinion, further dilution of our Second Amendment protections.
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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard." H. L. Mencken

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