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#3145913 - 01/30/13 04:24 PM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: in the dog house!]
44fanatic
12 Point


Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 6126
Loc: Clarksville, Montgomery Cnty

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This post is not attack on anyone, nor a defense of Bambi Buster. BB has worked with the Border Patrol and has opened his home to many veterans. To what capacity he worked with the Border Patrol, I have no idea, but I am willing to bet that it is much higher than just patrolling the border. I have an intelligence background. We question the sources of information and the message they are trying to deliver.

Anything that is extreme right wing I will discount, I dont view the source as credible unless it is backed with verifiable facts and information. We must learn to deliver information in a way that is not inflamatory nor in a way that takes away the credibility of reporting. It is very easy to influence an indivual with information that follows their way of thinking. Difficult to influence a neutral person with unsupported facts. Present the fence rider with supported facts and you should be able to influence them.
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#3145947 - 01/30/13 04:46 PM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: 44fanatic]
Stalkhunter
10 Point


Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 3846
Loc: Knoxville TN

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well if the facts are from main stream media lol then we might as well give up. More stuff is censored then you can imagine, but we have a transparent government.They tell the truth on everything.

Well why did obama pass that they only get 45 mins to read bills makes me wonder whats really in the bill.. How can millions talking the dame stuff be wrong. why havent the true documents on JFK been released yet? Because it is onecof the biggest scandels in US history. If 9/11 was a cover up it make everything else look like childs play. So now why is it ok for us to go to all these other countries kill their people and to never think those same orders wont be issued here.

research civil war hmmmm the President ordered the shooting of Americans dont spin it. Its what he did. Under The Constitution the Southern States had the right to leave the Union period and the rights are still there today.



Edited by Stalkhunter (01/30/13 04:46 PM)
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#3145963 - 01/30/13 04:56 PM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: 44fanatic]
Bambi Buster
14 Point


Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 7542
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic
This post is not attack on anyone, nor a defense of Bambi Buster. BB has worked with the Border Patrol and has opened his home to many veterans. To what capacity he worked with the Border Patrol, I have no idea, but I am willing to bet that it is much higher than just patrolling the border. I have an intelligence background. We question the sources of information and the message they are trying to deliver.

Anything that is extreme right wing I will discount, I dont view the source as credible unless it is backed with verifiable facts and information. We must learn to deliver information in a way that is not inflamatory nor in a way that takes away the credibility of reporting. It is very easy to influence an indivual with information that follows their way of thinking. Difficult to influence a neutral person with unsupported facts. Present the fence rider with supported facts and you should be able to influence them.


The first three sentences aside, I strongly encourage everyone to put egos and hurt feelings aside and give 44's post a very careful and thoughtful read. It's not long or complicated, but it is profound and true.
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"The American military is like a finely crafted sword. To be effective, it must be wielded by a discerning, skilled and merciless hand."

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#3145983 - 01/30/13 05:13 PM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: Bambi Buster]
Stalkhunter
10 Point


Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 3846
Loc: Knoxville TN

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BB i have pm 44fanantic he knows i am on the same page. I told him of my back ground and how i got were i am today. It saddens me. I am no longer have blind faith to believe in this Government, I use too. It took me a very long time to reach this point.

I think in the end we all here on Tndeer want the same thing. We agree to disagree, I would rather be wrong about what feel and what i have researched and learned.

Spent many tour in the Med and middle east. I pray everyday this is not happening and everyday we wake up just another nail gets put in the coffin of our freedoms.
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#3146125 - 01/30/13 07:02 PM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: 44fanatic]
Bowdacious
16 Point


Registered: 09/01/00
Posts: 15388
Loc: over here

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 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic
 Originally Posted By: in the dog house!
 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic
I see four possible incidents upon which the military would use deadly force:

1) Rioters charging and attacking barricade/control lines
2) Right wing extremists (individuals and groups) who do not believe in the federal government firing upon military and agency positions/facilites. Hostile actions (ambush, sniper) would be initiated by the extremist. Or action being taken by the military based upon intelligence reporting of extremist strongholds and locations with the extremist initiating the hostile action.
3) A "panic" situation where a military member feels threatened and fires upon civilians. This would be investigated and the information gained would then be used and disseminated to troops so that hopefully another similar incident would not happen again.
4) Troops returning fire upon disgruntled individuals. This would be deliberate and directed fire, not a squad opening up with all weapons. This is where the training really kicks in.



Or after a hurricane comes through and the military goes in to disarm the people that are just trying to protect themselves from looting. If that happened here and the tried to take peoples gun around here, well I dont think it would end like it did in LA.


From a military perspective and law enforcement perspective, I would not want armed indivuals ON THE STREET during or following a chaotic event. In their homes or place of business, highly encouraged. After Katrina, the military and other involved agencies would have conducted after action reviews and published "lessons learned". These Lessons Learned and other input would then be placed into policy and regulation as to how to handle similar situations.

This issue has been addressed:
SEC. 3. PROHIBITION ON CONFISCATION OF FIREARMS DURING CERTAIN NATIONAL EMERGENCIES.

Title VII of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5201 et seq.) is amended by adding at the end the following:

`SEC. 706. FIREARMS POLICIES.

`(a) Prohibition on Confiscation of Firearms- No officer or employee of the United States (including any member of the uniformed services), person operating pursuant to or under color of Federal law, receiving Federal funds, under the control of any Federal official, or providing services to such an officer, employee, or other person, while acting in support of relief from a major disaster or emergency, may--
`(1) temporarily or permanently seize, or authorize seizure of, any firearm the possession of which is not prohibited under Federal or State law, other than for forfeiture in compliance with Federal law or as evidence in a criminal investigation;
`(2) require the registration of any firearm for which registration is not required by Federal or State law;
`(3) prohibit the possession of any firearm, or promulgate any rule, regulation, or order prohibiting the possession of any firearm, in any place or by any person where such possession is not otherwise prohibited by Federal or State law; or
`(4) prohibit the carrying of a firearm by any person otherwise authorized to carry firearms under Federal or State law, solely because such person is operating under the direction, control, or supervision of a Federal agency in support of relief from a major disaster or emergency.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:S.+2599:

They were taking them from people's homes. Not just on the street. They went into homes and disarmed folks and left them with no protection. That will not happen at my house.
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#3146174 - 01/30/13 07:37 PM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: Bowdacious]
Bambi Buster
14 Point


Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 7542
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: Bowdacious
 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic
[quote=in the dog house!][quote=44fanatic]
This issue has been addressed:
SEC. 3. PROHIBITION ON CONFISCATION OF FIREARMS DURING CERTAIN NATIONAL EMERGENCIES.

Title VII of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5201 et seq.) is amended by adding at the end the following:

`SEC. 706. FIREARMS POLICIES.

`(a) Prohibition on Confiscation of Firearms- No officer or employee of the United States (including any member of the uniformed services), person operating pursuant to or under color of Federal law, receiving Federal funds, under the control of any Federal official, or providing services to such an officer, employee, or other person, while acting in support of relief from a major disaster or emergency, may--
`(1) temporarily or permanently seize, or authorize seizure of, any firearm the possession of which is not prohibited under Federal or State law, other than for forfeiture in compliance with Federal law or as evidence in a criminal investigation;
`(2) require the registration of any firearm for which registration is not required by Federal or State law;
`(3) prohibit the possession of any firearm, or promulgate any rule, regulation, or order prohibiting the possession of any firearm, in any place or by any person where such possession is not otherwise prohibited by Federal or State law; or
`(4) prohibit the carrying of a firearm by any person otherwise authorized to carry firearms under Federal or State law, solely because such person is operating under the direction, control, or supervision of a Federal agency in support of relief from a major disaster or emergency.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:S.+2599:

They were taking them from people's homes. Not just on the street. They went into homes and disarmed folks and left them with no protection. That will not happen at my house.


Which is exactly why the law 44fantic pasted above was passed after it happened, to prevent it ever happening again.
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#3146428 - 01/30/13 10:16 PM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: Bambi Buster]
in the dog house!
14 Point


Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 7970
Loc: west tn

content Online
I hope that is one law they CAN and WILL enforce. That was so wrong.
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#3146439 - 01/30/13 10:42 PM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: 44fanatic]
nodog
4 Point


Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 297
Loc: Ohio

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 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic


Anything that is extreme right wing I will discount, I dont view the source as credible unless it is backed with verifiable facts and information.
This is the second time you singled out one particular political group, the first you said you'd fire on them. I don't like what I'm reading if your speaking for the military/government.
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#3146468 - 01/30/13 11:23 PM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: Stalkhunter]
nodog
4 Point


Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 297
Loc: Ohio

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 Originally Posted By: Stalkhunter
"The 5th Amendment to the Constitution states that 'No person shall be…deprived of…liberty…without due process of law.'"

"An authorization to use military force, a declaration of war, or any similar authority shall not authorize the detention without charge or trial of a citizen or lawful permanent resident of the United States apprehended in the United States, unless an Act of Congress expressly authorizes such detention."



THIS IS IN THE NDAA AND Congress does not have the right to detain American Citizens with out due process


How so? It says congress can authorize such detentions. Lincoln's example can happen today.

The 1807 Insurrection Act changed to The 2008 Defense Authorization Bill gives a lot of power. All it takes is the right classification of the event. The same constitution that gives the people the right to throw off an oppressive government also gives the government the authority to try and stop it. That is pretty much the way all laws are written. Best you not become the rope in the middle of that tug of war and why I say until we here of the military going against authority, forget about it, you'll just be labeled a terrorist (or right wing extremist) and done away with. The stock market will probably rally that day as well.

(1) The President may employ the armed forces, including the National Guard in Federal service, to--
(A) restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition in any State or possession of the United States, the President determines that--
(i) domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order; and
(ii) such violence results in a condition described in paragraph (2); or
(B) suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy if such insurrection, violation, combination, or conspiracy results in a condition described in paragraph (2).
(2) A condition described in this paragraph is a condition that--
(A) so hinders the execution of the laws of a State or possession, as applicable, and of the United States within that State or possession, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted authorities of that State or possession are unable, fail, or refuse to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection; or
(B) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws.
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#3146555 - 01/31/13 06:44 AM Re: Military Drills Resume Preparation for MAT.LAW [Re: nodog]
44fanatic
12 Point


Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 6126
Loc: Clarksville, Montgomery Cnty

Offline
 Originally Posted By: nodog
 Originally Posted By: 44fanatic


Anything that is extreme right wing I will discount, I dont view the source as credible unless it is backed with verifiable facts and information.
This is the second time you singled out one particular political group, the first you said you'd fire on them. I don't like what I'm reading if your speaking for the military/government.



First of all, I can not speak for the government or military. I am retired and no longer have any influence. Second, I did not say I would fire, I provided scenarios in which I see the military firing on civilians. I can only speak of what I think would happen today...I can only base my judgements based upon my experience and knowledge.

The reason why I didnt mention left wing media...I dont much care for anything they have to say, yet I will read what is presented to me so that I am informed. As for EXTREME RIGHT WING media and groups, these are the folks who give the liberals their ammunition and make the conservatives look bad. These are the the seperatists who are willing to kill a cop when they are pulled over, the militias who do not pay taxes. If martial law is declared, they are the ones who the government percieves as a threat. And this is why I mentioned the extreme right wing in the shooting scenarios. The extreme right wing media is the one that publishes conspiracy theories, points out only small portions of law and regulation and the extreme impact of that law, not the full law, nor the impact of the full law or the intent of that law in an attempt to push an anti-government agenda. The riots I see coming from the inner city, the Obama lovers and generally parasites to society...maybe I should have declared this group as part of the left wing...but for the most part they are not liberals, they are only out for themselves, influenced by government checks, drugs and laziness.

I dont hate our government, I hate where it is going. I have faith that if we can pull our collective heads out of our arse, we can stop it and very slowly turn it around without a second revolution. I grew up in Montana, I was not raised in the South, I dont have the Southern heritage in my blood. I dont have the family stories of what happened following the Civil War. What I grew up with is a dispassion for our federal government trying to control our lives and saw a state that was always one of the last ones to fall to federal regulation, I am dang proud to have come from that state. I am a thinker, I think about what I am going to say, I think about what I read, I try to present a truth as I see it. I am a devils advocate, I will try to get you to see it from the other side. Am I doing you an injustice by agreeing with you on everything, yes I am. If I do not provide you with what I know or think, you may not know what to expect (generally speaking).


Edited by 44fanatic (01/31/13 07:08 AM)
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