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#3143652 - 01/29/13 10:30 AM Advice for smokeless newbie
Roost 1
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I am going to getting a savage ml ll soon and have been doing some research on bullets/sabots and powder. I am wanting to use the 300gr barnes originals with either orange mmp or bcr and for powder I am leaning towards RE7 or N120. I realize I will have to see what my gun likes but any suggestions are welcomed..
My farthest shot would be 250 yds but most likely less than 100yds. Thanks in advance for any info.
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#3143745 - 01/29/13 11:24 AM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Roost 1]
Tenn.Guy
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I am definitely still learning. As of now I am trying to find what mine likes. I am shooting AA 5744 but plan on switching to RE7 or H4198...

I will say once you get started you will love it.. Have you bought the gun yet? I found a great deal online. Let me know if you want a link.

You will probably want to get started with 300gr hornady XTP to get on paper. ALOT cheaper to shoot.

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#3143794 - 01/29/13 12:04 PM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Tenn.Guy]
barkscraper
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I took some advice from david d when i started and it was good advice for me . He told me the 195sst with 4198 would do anything i asked and he was right. The speed of the sst is a little much at close range but it still gets the job done. Just makes a larger hole There are some problems getting the savage to group sometimes just hang in and go to dougs message board
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#3143802 - 01/29/13 12:09 PM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: barkscraper]
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Thanks guys keep the advice coming....
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#3143816 - 01/29/13 12:17 PM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Roost 1]
Rubberduck270
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Rockhound can point you in the right direction. One thing you want to make sure of is using .458 bullets rather than .452. The tighter you bullet/sabot combo fits in the barrel the better.

I'll be shooting H4198 in my ML-II come fall but that's because it's what I've been shooting in my H&R conversion.

I've got a few load tables for 50 cals in various powders if you want them. I can email them if you want to pm me your email.
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#3143853 - 01/29/13 12:41 PM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Rubberduck270]
Tenn.Guy
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PM sent for those load tables rubberduck270.
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#3143868 - 01/29/13 12:58 PM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Tenn.Guy]
cecil30-30
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I wouldn't get a savage 10ml,i'd get a Rem 700 ML and get a pacnor barrel for it.
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#3144088 - 01/29/13 03:18 PM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: cecil30-30]
ewc
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For 300 grain bullets, Reloader 10X would be my first choice, followed by H-322, and H-4198.

Benchmark rates a thought too.

Good luck-

https://workspaces.acrobat.com/app.html#d=s2FLscqwRfqxdRDSzOlMrA


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#3144271 - 01/29/13 05:15 PM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: barkscraper]
ewc
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 Originally Posted By: barkscraper
I took some advice from david d when i started and it was good advice for me . He told me the 195sst with 4198 would do anything i asked and he was right. The speed of the sst is a little much at close range but it still gets the job done. Just makes a larger hole There are some problems getting the savage to group sometimes just hang in and go to dougs message board


FYI and no offense \:\) - I'm pretty certain dave's advice you recommend is for a .45 caliber...

.40 caliber bullets in a .50 caliber don't do so hot as a rule (RB).

Also, it's a 200 sst or a 195 Barnes.

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#3145194 - 01/30/13 07:43 AM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: ewc]
barkscraper
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sorry i have 2 smokeless and you are right in the 50 i shoot 250sst with a duplex of 110 and 4198 cause of problems with cold weather when i was shooting 10x problem solved and in the 45 pro-hunter pac-nor 195sst with the same duplex just not as much load every barrel every load or bullet selection changes things
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#3145401 - 01/30/13 10:23 AM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: barkscraper]
Roost 1
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Alright guys I listened to what you were saying I had a bud pick
me up some h4198. I will prolly start out with 300 gr xtp to get scope set in and to get use to feel of gun and then switch over to the BO... Any ideals where I need to start as far as amount of powder.. I may later on try the N120 but not for now. Thanks
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#3145643 - 01/30/13 01:14 PM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Roost 1]
volsgo1
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Never not had one drop dead where it stood from 62 grains of n120 and a 300 Grain Barnes Original in a black crushed rib sabot.
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#3145753 - 01/30/13 02:15 PM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Roost 1]
Rubberduck270
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 Originally Posted By: Roost 1
Any ideals where I need to start as far as amount of powder...

I'd start out at 65 and work up to 70ish if your shoulder can handle it
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#3146039 - 01/30/13 06:01 PM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Rubberduck270]
Tar12
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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
 Originally Posted By: Roost 1
Any ideals where I need to start as far as amount of powder...

I'd start out at 65 and work up to 70ish if your shoulder can handle it

Please be cautious and state exactly what powder you are speaking of.In this case H-4198.The results of going to the 70ish range would be disastrous with N-120 in a .50 cal and a 300 grn bullet.

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#3146061 - 01/30/13 06:18 PM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Tar12]
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I am not looking for all my shoulder can handle.....LOL
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#3146773 - 01/31/13 10:44 AM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Roost 1]
Rubberduck270
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Tar12 is correct, when discussing powders and charge weights we all need to be careful and specific of what powders we are referring to. 4198 is not specific enough either. It's either H4198 or IMR4198. There is a difference in the two.

Roost, if you don't want a real hard kicker, start and 65 gr. of H4198 and see if it's too much. If it is, go back about 5 gr. and work back up. If 90% of your shots will be under 100 yrds then velocity isn't really a concern. It's those 250 yrd shots that beg for more fps.
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#3147057 - 01/31/13 03:27 PM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Rubberduck270]
ewc
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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
Roost, if you don't want a real hard kicker, start and 65 gr. of H4198 and see if it's too much. If it is, go back about 5 gr. and work back up. If 90% of your shots will be under 100 yrds then velocity isn't really a concern. It's those 250 yrd shots that beg for more fps.


What Tar said is correct. However, the inverse of max loads will get you too.

You need to build pressure and 60 g of H-4198 is not what I would call a stable load. It will be pressure starved - likely in the upper 20's and prone to misfire. There is a reason RB recommended H-4198 from 70-75gr with 250's. The pressure work has been done for you. Check Doug's for the traces.

If you don't like the recoil with 65-70g loads, back down to the 40-45gr loads.

Want a 50-65 gr load? Duplex.

You cannot take a good load and arbitrarily add 10g or subtract 10g.

Tailor your load to the speed and recoil level that pleases you use some sense.

Learn about pressure from RB's old site:

http://web.archive.org/web/20110202055834/http://shootingandrocketfuels.com/

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#3147264 - 01/31/13 06:40 PM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: ewc]
ewc
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Just re-read the whole thread. What I posted above is spot on for 250's (I had 250's on my mind). However, what I posted would be wrong for 300's. For 300's 65-72 gr H-4198. 60 grains of H-4198 with 300's would still be a poor choice. Might work with IMR-4198.

However, if I were gonna shoot 300's, 4198 (either H or IMR) would not be my first choice.

300's:

10x and H-322 with a serious thought to Benchmark.

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#3147337 - 01/31/13 07:26 PM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: ewc]
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Why 10x H-322 or Benchmark? Thanks for the info. This is the kind of info I am looking for.
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#3147709 - 02/01/13 04:25 AM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Roost 1]
tasaman
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Thanks for fixing that ewc. I have never got into the super fast loads like 4198 so I am not much help there. I do know Roost grabbed what they had in stock and these days there might not be much of a choice to be had. They were out of my recommended powders of SR4759 and RL7. These I have shot quite a bit and are very easy on the shoulder.

From my notes and reading on Doug's old board a bunch of people liked both 4198s but it does look like speed comes with a punch. From my research your recommendations of 65-72gr powder should be in the neighborhood of 2250 to 2450 correspondingly. Is that about right?

Roost. Which brand powder did you get? IMR or Hodgdon?

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#3147718 - 02/01/13 04:47 AM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: tasaman]
Tar12
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My favorite though although not as easy to find at times for 300 grn bullets is N120 at 60 grns.Always goes bang. Is not temp sensitive. Bottom line guys is that in order to get a 300 grn projectile moving in the 2200-2500fps range there will be a price to pay in terms of recoil. The only way to gain speed and lesson recoil is by going the .45 barrel route where shooting a 195-200 grn bullet@ 2600-2800fps is far less recoil than a 300 grn clocking @ 2500 fps.Speed does indeed kill but I prefer for it to be down range!Let me ask this...do you really need speed with a 300 grn bullet? NO!I killed a lot of deer with 5744.44 grns and a 300 grn bullet would not break 2000fps yet I had no escapees! lol You do not have to punish yourself to kill deer.

Edited by Tar12 (02/01/13 04:58 AM)

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#3147795 - 02/01/13 06:30 AM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: tasaman]
Roost 1
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 Originally Posted By: tasaman


Roost. Which brand powder did you get? IMR or Hodgdon?


Hodgdon
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#3147796 - 02/01/13 06:32 AM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Roost 1]
Roost 1
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From my research i was wanting to go with the N120 or RE7 local shop had neither... To be clear accuracy is more important to me than speed... I am not interested in pushing limits.
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#3147869 - 02/01/13 07:48 AM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Tar12]
Wes Parrish
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This has turned into a very informative thread.
Just me personally, I've always been more into hunting than shooting, but shoot enough to have decent skills, and appreciate good weapons and loads.

As a hunter, I've never used anything but 5744 in my Savage, simply because I had felt it was the most reliable powder under the most adverse conditions, like hunting all day in a pouring rain that turns to sleet. Not to mention, the Savage Smokeless ML itself was such a superior set-up to everything I've had previously.

Particularly after reading some of ewc's posts (both here and on other threads), my interest has been greatly peaked to experiment more with different powders. Previously, it's just been different bullets and different amounts of 5744. As a hunter, I value reliability more than either speed or accuracy, but would always appreciate more speed & accuracy when the set-up is very reliable "to go bang".

THANK YOU to all who have posted, as most of you know a lot more about this than I. \:\)

 Originally Posted By: Tar12
My favorite . . . . . N120. Always goes bang. Is not temp sensitive.
 Originally Posted By: ewc
300's:

10x and H-322 with a serious thought to Benchmark.

Think I'll start experimenting with either the N120 or the 10x, and plan to mainly be using various 300 gr bullets. Not sure I have the inclination to put the time in experimenting with lots of different powders, and will probably just go with either the N120 or 10x to start.

I'd like to hear more about the pros/cons of 10x over N120 (vice-versa) and/or 10x compared to any other good choice.

THANKS!

ewc, my next decision is whether to replace that Burris Signature scope on my Savage with a Leupold VX-6! Have already decided not to set up a new rifle, but my mouth is still watering over those VX-6's!

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#3147873 - 02/01/13 07:50 AM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Roost 1]
Wes Parrish
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 Originally Posted By: Roost 1
To be clear accuracy is more important to me than speed... I am not interested in pushing limits.

Same here.
Only for my hunting, reliablility trumps everything else provided accuracy & speed are acceptable.

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#3148041 - 02/01/13 09:48 AM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Roost 1]
ewc
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 Originally Posted By: Roost 1
Why 10x H-322 or Benchmark? Thanks for the info. This is the kind of info I am looking for.


Because -
1) Those powders are all recommended powders for the case you are duplicating.
2) They have relatively the same burn rate
3) 10x and H-322 have been tested for pressure and are proven good powders for 300 gr projectiles (see load data and pressure testing at Doug's). The Benchmark is just a good hunch on my part. I don't know of anyone that has shot it in the .50, but I have no reason to think it wouldn't be good. I shot a ton of it in my .40 and found it to be both accurate and very consistent speedwise.

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#3148044 - 02/01/13 09:50 AM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: ewc]
ewc
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Wes-

I have both 10x and 322 handy if you want to try them out before buying a pound or two.

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#3148052 - 02/01/13 09:55 AM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: ewc]
ewc
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If you just want an accurate, consistent load, without a ton of recoil it is hard to beat the standards with a 250 grain bullet:

SR-4759
N-110
5744

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#3148060 - 02/01/13 10:02 AM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: ewc]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
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 Originally Posted By: ewc
If you just want an accurate, consistent load, without a ton of recoil it is hard to beat the standards with a 250 grain bullet:

SR-4759
This is what I shoot in my Savage. FWIW, I sought out and followed ewc's advice few years back when I first got my MLII and I have nothing but great things to say about his wealth of knowledge when it comes to smokeless, his willingness to help and how good my MLII shoots using his suggested load. You will not go wrong if you follow his guidance. My .02


Edited by Andy S. (02/01/13 10:05 AM)
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#3148101 - 02/01/13 10:27 AM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Andy S.]
Roost 1
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Thanks guys this is all very much appreciated... My
iPhone will not open the load tables over on Doug's for some reason. Do please dont think I am not listening to repeated advice about Doug's because I am. I just can't see it. This is all great info.
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#3152229 - 02/04/13 10:31 PM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Roost 1]
holstonangler
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I shoot 10X, 5744, and RE 7. 5744 and RE7 are the most accurate out of my gun, while learning more on RE7 for its compromise on speed and reliability and its availability. Take your time on doing research and you'll come out saving a ton of money on what different combos that shoot consistently good through a wide range of variables.
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#3152554 - 02/05/13 09:12 AM Re: Advice for smokeless newbie [Re: Roost 1]
Tenn.Guy
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can you get pdf file? I can email one over to you. PM your email if you want it.
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