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#3137408 - 01/24/13 12:18 PM Arrows
eweisner
8 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 1846
Loc: Portland, TN

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Had a question about arrows.

The bow that I have is an '87 / '88 Browning Magnum Plus. It's in really good shape and has been well cared for. When I first got it Vonhogslayer invited me out and went over everything. Even put it on a crono (?) to test arrow speed.

If I remember everything correctly I'm at about 63lbs (it will go 70 but shoots better where we have it), and in the mid 200's per FPS.

I'd like to increase the speed a little but don't think that there is much than can be done with the mechanics. I've asked about different cams before and gotten no go answers.

That lead me to arrows. I'm using Carbon Express Devils Wrath 55/75 with Eastman Outdoors Troika ST3 100-Grain Broadheads.

Will a lighter arrow and broadhead give me more speed? What about accuracy?
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#3137463 - 01/24/13 12:55 PM Re: Arrows [Re: eweisner]
TNDeerGuy
12 Point


Registered: 11/28/06
Posts: 6037
Loc: Old Hickory/Mt.Juliet, TN

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What is your arrow weight now? I am not a big advocate of speed unless your shooting a 3D setup. I am however, a huge advocate of getting the most kinetic energy as possible out of a setup and finding the perfect balance of k/e and speed. A lighter weight arrow will give you more speed, but it also carries less k/e downrange—the lighter the arrow, the quicker it looses energy and speed. Finding that perfect balance of speed and energy is what you should try to achieve.

As far as accuracy, that really depends on the spine of the arrow. Moving away from the ideal spine can affect arrow flight, which can lead to accuracy issue.
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#3140945 - 01/27/13 01:24 AM Re: Arrows [Re: TNDeerGuy]
eweisner
8 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 1846
Loc: Portland, TN

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I hear what you are saying. Thing is I bought a package deal. It had a mix of two different size carbon arrows. Redhead Carbon Extreme 350, Carbon Express Devil's Wrath 50/60, and some Easton aluminum stuff. I shot the Carbon Express better than the others so I went with those. I had 100 grain field tips so I stuck with those.

I just weighed my arrows and the came in at 28 grams.

There was no study to the setup more of using what I bought.
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#3141787 - 01/27/13 09:05 PM Re: Arrows [Re: eweisner]
TNDeerGuy
12 Point


Registered: 11/28/06
Posts: 6037
Loc: Old Hickory/Mt.Juliet, TN

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I don't know anything about your setup as far as poundage, draw weight, arrow length, etc...; but I did run some numbers. The problem with your bow is the age \:\) —all the programs start with 2001/2002 models. Here is what I did: I went with a 28" draw at 70lbs and used the 2001 Browning Eclipse which had an IBO speed of 300fps. Next I chose a carbon express arrows with 100gr tip that weighed 512grains, 428grains, 378grains and 328grains and took the measurements from 0, 20 and 30 yards.

yardage.... k/e.... fps....poi in inches

512grains
0....66.4ft/lbs....240....-4
20....62.4....233....0
30....60.6....229.4.....-7.52

428grains
0.... 66.1ft/lbs.... 264.....-4
20.... 61.9ft/lbs.... 255.... .53 (crosses the zero line at 22y)
30.... 59.8ft/lbs.... 251.... -4.32

378grains
0.... 65.8ft/lbs.... 279....-4
20.... 62.1ft/lbs.... 271.... 0
30.... 60.2ft/lbs.... 267.... -3.64

328grains
0.... 65.5ft/lbs.... 299.... -4
20.... 60.4ft/lbs.... 287.... .33 (crosses the zero line @ 23yds)
30.... 57.7ft/lbs.... 281.... -3.07

This may give you a better idea of what an arrow does when weights are changed and the effects of amount/rates of changes of energy and speed between speeds on different weights. Sometimes you may help yourself more by going heavier, or lighter—it really just depends. In this case, the 328 grain should be out because that would be less than the 5gpi minimum for the poundage your pulling, but you would also be losing k/e and potential energy even though your gaining alot more speed. You could drop down to a 370-380 grain arrow, from your current 420 grain setup, but as you can see the changes are really minimal when you look at it. Also, in this case I would go with the higher weight because the higher weight will hold more potential energy even though kinetic energy is basically the same. If you wanted to you could go even higher, like the 512 grain arrow. Yes, it is a little slower, and the kinetic energy is about the same, but the potential energy is significantly higher—that is why many recurve shooters use big, heavy arrows in hunting situations.

I hope this helps.
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#3143647 - 01/29/13 10:27 AM Re: Arrows [Re: TNDeerGuy]
eweisner
8 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 1846
Loc: Portland, TN

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Just curious to see what those numbers look like at a 28" draw, 63lbs, and 229 FPS
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#3144076 - 01/29/13 03:07 PM Re: Arrows [Re: eweisner]
TNDeerGuy
12 Point


Registered: 11/28/06
Posts: 6037
Loc: Old Hickory/Mt.Juliet, TN

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 Originally Posted By: eweisner
Just curious to see what those numbers look like at a 28" draw, 63lbs, and 229 FPS


Here ya go, I couldn't get it 100% absolute exact, but it should be relatively close (95%) and should provide a better idea of different setups with different weights.


yardage.... k/e.... fps....poi in inches

525grains
0....51.2ft/lbs....209.5....-4
20....48.2ft/lbs....203.2....0
30....46.8ft/lbs....200.3.....-10.49

432grains (the weight of your current arrow)
0.... 51ft/lbs.... 230.5.....-4
20.... 47.5ft/lbs.... 222.4.... 0
30.... 45.9ft/lbs.... 218.6.... -8.41

378grains
0.... 50.8ft/lbs.... 246.4....-4
20.... 46.8ft/lbs.... 236.6.... 0
30.... 45ft/lbs.... 231.9.... -7.19

307grains (the lightest arrow you can shoot with that setup)
0.... 50.4ft/lbs.... 271.7.... -4
20.... 46.7ft/lbs.... 261.7.... 0
30.... 45.1ft/lbs.... 257.... -5.52
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#3145286 - 01/30/13 09:00 AM Re: Arrows [Re: TNDeerGuy]
eweisner
8 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 1846
Loc: Portland, TN

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re:arrow
So if I understand the information for 525 grains:

0 is point blank and I would aim 4" below to hit center to account for "rise"
20 yards is zero and aim directly at 0 to hit center
30 yards I would need to aim 10.49 inches above to hit center

Reading the information you have given me it looks like the best I can do in k/e is 525 grains but that limits my range. I can't help but like what I see on the 307 grains arrows. The biggest change is at 20 yards and I would only lose .8 ft/lbs from my current setup...and at 30 yards as well.

The biggest question I have is in layman's terms, how big a difference is .8 ft/lbs? I was also wondering about my cables. I have rubber coated steel. Any advantage to going to a newer custom cable? Say from someone like energy wave?
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#3145417 - 01/30/13 10:34 AM Re: Arrows [Re: eweisner]
TNDeerGuy
12 Point


Registered: 11/28/06
Posts: 6037
Loc: Old Hickory/Mt.Juliet, TN

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 Originally Posted By: eweisner
re:arrow
So if I understand the information for 525 grains:

0 is point blank and I would aim 4" below to hit center to account for "rise"
20 yards is zero and aim directly at 0 to hit center
30 yards I would need to aim 10.49 inches above to hit center

Reading the information you have given me it looks like the best I can do in k/e is 525 grains but that limits my range. I can't help but like what I see on the 307 grains arrows. The biggest change is at 20 yards and I would only lose .8 ft/lbs from my current setup...and at 30 yards as well.

The biggest question I have is in layman's terms, how big a difference is .8 ft/lbs? I was also wondering about my cables. I have rubber coated steel. Any advantage to going to a newer custom cable? Say from someone like energy wave?


You are correct on the points of impact, except for the 0 yardage—your arrow will impact 4" lower than where you aimed, or whatever measurement is between your sight and rest.

When thinking about arrows, it is important to consider what the application is—hunting or target. Honestly, I would stick around what you have now (400-450grains)....it is a good balance of speed, k/e and potential energy and by the way .8 change in k/e is nothing. The 525 grain arrow is heavy and will hit like an absolute hammer, but you will need to adjust your shot selction because of the drop and slower speeds. Even though the higher speed of the 307grain is attractive, mainly because the industry is soooooo caught up in selling speed, I wouldn't even consider it for hunting because of the loss of potential energy. Now for target, or 3D, I would use the lightest arrow I could shoot because a flatter shooting trajectory is alot more important than a lower amount of potential energy.

A comparision that may put it into perspective a little better is a ping-pong and golf ball test. Imagine you are standing 10ft in front of a person and they throw both balls at you...which will hurt the most upon impact and which do you think will travel the most distance? The reason why the golf ball carries more speed for a longer distance and hurts more, alot more, is potenial/stored energy due to the increase in weight it has over the lighter object.

As far as should you switch from the coated cable to an actual string and what would it do question, I would have to refer that question to a string maker. I personally have never switched them out, seen it done or heard of it being done(that is really old bow technology \:\) ), but I don't see why it couldn't be done and I could only imagine that you would pick up a little speed from doing so due to it being lighter than the cable. Send Energywave an email and ask them about their thoughts on it. Fasteddie could answer it as well, but I don't know how often he gets on here.

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#3145537 - 01/30/13 12:12 PM Re: Arrows [Re: TNDeerGuy]
eweisner
8 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 1846
Loc: Portland, TN

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I guess I should clarify. I'm wanting to increase my bow's performance, not solely speed. I mean really, the American Indians, or native american's (I have enough cherokee blood to qualify so no crying foul!) were killing deer and other animals with far less technology than what we have right?
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"Sometimes you find yourself in the middle of no where; and sometimes, in the middle of no where you find yourself"

http://confessionsofanovicebowhunter.wordpress.com

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#3145566 - 01/30/13 12:27 PM Re: Arrows [Re: eweisner]
TNDeerGuy
12 Point


Registered: 11/28/06
Posts: 6037
Loc: Old Hickory/Mt.Juliet, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: eweisner
I guess I should clarify. I'm wanting to increase my bow's performance, not solely speed. I mean really, the American Indians, or native american's (I have enough cherokee blood to qualify so no crying foul!) were killing deer and other animals with far less technology than what we have right?


The history books are/were wrong....they were all shooting Mathews and Hoyts—don't believe everything you read! ;\) LOL

Don't worry, I completely understood what you are trying to achieve, and I commend you for that—some don't put that much thought into it. I really just made the point about speed more as a blanket statement for anyone else, especially the less experienced archers, that may read this that believes that speed is everything, because those people are out there—even people that have been archers for a long time.
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