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#313383 - 07/25/07 08:22 PM DER, Winter Wheat and clover question....
showmehorns
16 Point


Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 15942
Loc: usually in the woods

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Here's the deal. For the past two years I have planted this mixture in my plot. I usually stick the cams out on the plot right after planting and continue to watch the traffic through hunting season, but about nearing the end of hunting season the plot looks bare (Rape dried up and turned) and everything else seemes to be chewed to the ground as well. For that reason I normally take my cams up and don't fool with them again until I've planted again in the fall. I don't mow, spray or touch the plot until fall, right before the archery opener.

This year I decided to do things a little different. Several months back I was out hanging stands and noticed a ton of deer sign in and around the plot, and decided to sit near it for a couple of evening just to see what was going on. Sure enough, quite a bit of deer traffic. They were standing in , what seemed to me, to be tall, dead, brown weeds and feeding in the clover that was left in the plot. However, after checking out the plot just a tad closer I noticed that I had quite a bit of DER starting to break ground in different areas of the plot. I'm not sure if that's what they are after, I didn't think they fooled with DER until after the first frost or two, but after checking several of the new plants out it's obvious something is feeding on them. It could be g-hogs, but if so they have hit ever single plant in the plot.

Sooooo...I decided to hang a camera in the plot during the last little bit and my hunch was right on. I'm getting a TON of deer activity in the plot during the evening and all through the night hours. Now, all of this leads me to a few questions I need answered.

1. What should I be doing to this plot during the spring and summer months? Should it be mowed? Should it be sprayed? I do know my turkey love it right before it starts getting high and I have a lot of success in and around the plot.

2. Should that DER be reseeding itself? I was thinking this plant was a perennial.

3. What are the "weeds" I'm looking at in the plots? (I'll throw in some pics to see if you can tell)

4. Should I even fool with tearing the plot up this year with the ammount of deer traffic that's hitting it right now? I have a ton of clover, a little bit of rape along with all sorts of high weeds.

Not sure how much you can tell from the pics, but it's all I got.

This is what the plot looks like going into bow season.


And this is what is looks like by the end of deer season.


And this is what happens with no mowing or spraying. (dates are on pic. Same plot, just different corner.)
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#313439 - 07/25/07 08:46 PM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: showmehorns]
richmanbarbeque
16 Point


Registered: 07/17/03
Posts: 12783
Loc: Middle, Tn

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I'll let the pros answr your questions but man that is a smokin looking bow spot. I would have my butt planted on one of the inside corners leading to the field. Great plot.
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#313547 - 07/25/07 09:29 PM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: richmanbarbeque]
showmehorns
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Registered: 10/23/02
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 Originally Posted By: richmanbarbeque
I'll let the pros answr your questions but man that is a smokin looking bow spot. I would have my butt planted on one of the inside corners leading to the field. Great plot.


One of those corners sound really good to me!!
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#313558 - 07/25/07 09:36 PM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: richmanbarbeque]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4259
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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When you plant the plot in september,.. plant it in a mix that will last til summer.
50 lb wheat
15 lb crimson
5 lb arrowleaf
5 lb DER
per acre
this will last you til july.
When it dies,.. mow it,. and overseed in buckwheat(50 lbs per acre).

This is a awesome mix. Not only for deer,.. but turkey as well. The turkey will also eat the seeds from the buckwheat when you overseed it.

By the way,.. deer will eat the DER(annual) when it comes back up in the spring and early summer. SO,.. yes,.. thats whats your seeing there.
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#314036 - 07/26/07 08:28 AM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: deerchaser007]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN

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What Deerchaser007 said. That is the same thing I'm doing with my plots. In fact, I'm just now planting the mid-summer buckwheat.

However, all that said, deer are a weed-eating species. Native summer annual weeds are their primary food source. Many of those native weeds rival soybeans for forage quality. It is a very viable technique to allow fall/winter annual plots to revert to broadleaf weeds in summer. This is a natural food plot. For years I managed all of my plots that way--planted crops in fall and winter; native weed species in spring and summer.
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#315031 - 07/26/07 07:02 PM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: BSK]
showmehorns
16 Point


Registered: 10/23/02
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Exactly what I needed to know. Thanks!
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#315550 - 07/27/07 07:47 AM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: deerchaser007]
slabhead
8 Point


Registered: 11/20/01
Posts: 1248
Loc: Lewis Co.

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 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
When you plant the plot in september,.. plant it in a mix that will last til summer.
50 lb wheat
15 lb crimson
5 lb arrowleaf
5 lb DER
per acre
this will last you til july.
When it dies,.. mow it,. and overseed in buckwheat(50 lbs per acre).

This is a awesome mix. Not only for deer,.. but turkey as well. The turkey will also eat the seeds from the buckwheat when you overseed it.

By the way,.. deer will eat the DER(annual) when it comes back up in the spring and early summer. SO,.. yes,.. thats whats your seeing there.


When planting this in Sept, when should it be fertilized and what type should be used?
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#317111 - 07/28/07 03:21 PM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: slabhead]
muzzle
6 Point


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 673
Loc: Fall Branch, TN

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I know this is a stupid question to most of you but what is DER?
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#317277 - 07/28/07 07:43 PM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: muzzle]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4259
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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Slabhead,... a soil test is the only way to get a accurate fertilizer recommendation. The fertilizer should be done at time of planting,.. but would have been better 3 or 4 months before. I really hate to throw out numbers, and them be wrong, and you not get a good plot. Spend 8 dollars and do a soil test now. You will have the results back by planting time if you use the UT extension office in your county.

Muzzle,...DER..... dwarf essex rape!!
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#317347 - 07/28/07 08:46 PM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: deerchaser007]
plinker22
16 Point


Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 12304
Loc: Mountians of East Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
When you plant the plot in september,.. plant it in a mix that will last til summer.
50 lb wheat
15 lb crimson
5 lb arrowleaf
5 lb DER
per acre

Can you buy this specific mixture, or do we just buy each individual type of seed and then plant them all together?

BTW, this topic is great: Showmehorn, you get a Gold Star for asking such a great question!
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#317533 - 07/28/07 10:28 PM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: plinker22]
stirrat
8 Point


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1047
Loc: savannah

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i have the exact plot as described above. i mowed in july. when are you guys spraying roundup before your september planting.
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#317835 - 07/29/07 09:17 AM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: plinker22]
HOOK
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 05/01/99
Posts: 15756
Loc: Rutherford County, TN

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1. What should I be doing to this plot during the spring and summer months? Should it be mowed? Should it be sprayed? I do know my turkey love it right before it starts getting high and I have a lot of success in and around the plot.

If your intent for this plot is only for a perinnial fall plot then let it go dormant through the summer. Deer will forage on natural growth and what remains of your plantings below and they will bed in it as well. Wait to cut the field a month before you want to plant. 2 weeks after you've cut, then herbicide to kill the new growth and in another two weeks you'll have a dead field ready to disk and plant.

2. Should that DER be reseeding itself? I was thinking this plant was a perennial.

It is a myth that they won't hit it until frost. At least in my area. DER will begin to get hit in early season as soon as the leaves broaden. Deer are hitting my DER hard in early bow season all the way through the winter. In spring it will (Moderately) re-seed to some extent if conditions are perfect, however, it is a perinnial and will not last the summer. *Note - I do not see ANY utilization of DER if planted in spring!

3. What are the "weeds" I'm looking at in the plots?

Again, if you're not maintaining an "annual" plot let the weeds come.

4. Should I even fool with tearing the plot up this year with the ammount of deer traffic that's hitting it right now? I have a ton of clover, a little bit of rape along with all sorts of high weeds.

Depends on what you want out of your plot. If you have perinnial clovers, when you cut and disk your field there will be seed that re-germinates as well as what you add so you're doing nothing but improving the plot.

As far as mixtures- it is way more expresive to by pre-mixed stuff. Much more affordable to order what you want and do the mix yourself.

The mix described above is good to consider if you only have a single plot, but it you have multiple areas to untilize you should seriously consider splitting the difference and give the deer a variety at several locations. This way spots don't get over untilized or over hunted. DER can stand alone or mix with clover. Winter wheat can stand alone or mix with clover. There is no logical reason you need wheat and DER in the same plot unless you have no other spot to put it. If you only have on plot to plant you may wish to deminish growth competition by splitting your field. Do one end in DER, one end in wheat, and mix clover in the entire field. That would me my call.

Soil test: Still viable but.... If pH is correct then no problem, but it's late in the game at this stage you wont have adequate time to neutralize ground before fall planting. A test will tell you what fertilizers you need for what you're planting.
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#317910 - 07/29/07 10:24 AM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: HOOK]
Team Browning
8 Point


Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2278
Loc: Chattanooga

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I have to admit - that second picture made me slobber a little bit.
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#318320 - 07/29/07 05:32 PM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: plinker22]
cmoses
4 Point


Registered: 02/04/07
Posts: 473
Loc: Cottontown

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that spot looks awesome man
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#318617 - 07/29/07 09:39 PM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: stirrat]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4259
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: stirrat
i have the exact plot as described above. i mowed in july. when are you guys spraying roundup before your september planting.


I mow mine and just overseed in buckwheat. Just throw it out on the ground. Then,. in september mow it down again and disc it all back in. Most all of it will reseed. If spraying is needed i would do it after the mowing in july,.. wait 7 days and then sow the buckwheat.
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#318627 - 07/29/07 09:47 PM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: plinker22]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4259
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: plinker22
 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
When you plant the plot in september,.. plant it in a mix that will last til summer.
50 lb wheat
15 lb crimson
5 lb arrowleaf
5 lb DER
per acre

Can you buy this specific mixture, or do we just buy each individual type of seed and then plant them all together?

BTW, this topic is great: Showmehorn, you get a Gold Star for asking such a great question!


Buy each seed seperate ,. you cannot buy this as a mix. You will break ground ,.. disc in the wheat(or oats) to 1/2 inch or 1 inch under the soil. Top sow the crimson,arrowleaf, and DER then lightly drag it or cultipack it. BE sure the clovers are preinoculated or you must inoculate them yourself.
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QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
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#318636 - 07/29/07 09:58 PM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: deerchaser007]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4259
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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Hook,... DER is a annual. It only last for 1 year or less. It will not reseed. I receive alot of browse on mine when planted in the fall and it returns in spring/early summer.
Perennial clovers are ladino type clovers. They can last for several years. 3 to 5
Annual clovers are clovers that last for 1 year or less. BUT,.. crimson and arrowleaf can be reseeded by discing for up to 2 years.
Red clover is a biennial clover lasting for 2 to 3 years.

I prefer mixes,.. deer are browsers. To provide good nutrition from a plot you want to provide lots of choices for them in that field. Give them plenty of browse choice. I plant for mostly nutrition ,.. but it still works as attractant if it has DER and oats in it.
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QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
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#318831 - 07/30/07 07:12 AM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: deerchaser007]
HOOK
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 05/01/99
Posts: 15756
Loc: Rutherford County, TN

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by deerchaser007
" Hook,... DER is a annual. It only last for 1 year or less. It will not reseed. I receive alot of browse on mine when planted in the fall and it returns in spring/early summer."

You're right I did not mean to say re-seed. Please put me down in a quiet pasture.
It is an annual...yes, but it will re-grow or "return" from time to time, but as I said conditions have to be right. In my years of working with rape I have had several plots - "Regrow" to partial extent after most of the field has died back. The plants never mature and typically only grow to 4" in height, but whatever the case there is regentration. To my knowledge, this regrowth is not utilized anyway so it really does'nt matter.
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#320521 - 07/31/07 09:58 AM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: HOOK]
showmehorns
16 Point


Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 15942
Loc: usually in the woods

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That's a lot of questions answered in a short amount of time! Thanks again fellas.
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#321229 - 07/31/07 06:17 PM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: HOOK]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4259
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: HOOK
by deerchaser007
" Hook,... DER is a annual. It only last for 1 year or less. It will not reseed. I receive alot of browse on mine when planted in the fall and it returns in spring/early summer."

You're right I did not mean to say re-seed. Please put me down in a quiet pasture.
It is an annual...yes, but it will re-grow or "return" from time to time, but as I said conditions have to be right. In my years of working with rape I have had several plots - "Regrow" to partial extent after most of the field has died back. The plants never mature and typically only grow to 4" in height, but whatever the case there is regentration. To my knowledge, this regrowth is not utilized anyway so it really does'nt matter.

Your right,... i don't know what causes some of the rape to return in spring. It all does not return. BUT,. what does return, the deer hammer it on my farm. This is why DER is even suggested or added to some spring/summer mixes. It provides a excellent food source very fast while the other plants in a sumer mix establish. I seriously see DER in the top 5 best planting for deer.
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QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
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#321277 - 07/31/07 07:01 PM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: deerchaser007]
HOOK
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 05/01/99
Posts: 15756
Loc: Rutherford County, TN

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I seriously see DER in the top 5 best planting for deer.

FULLY AGREE!!!
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#329568 - 08/06/07 07:50 PM Re: DER, Winter Wheat and clover question.... [Re: HOOK]
DeerSlayer
TnDeer Old Timer
8 Point


Registered: 11/09/99
Posts: 2378
Loc: Roane County, Tennessee

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I like the sound of your mix:

50 lb wheat
15 lb crimson
5 lb arrowleaf
5 lb DER
per acre

If I can't get the Dwarf Essex Rape, is there something else that would work for that instead? I called the local co-op and they didn't know what I was talking about.
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