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#3116410 - 01/09/13 02:51 PM Re: Alex Jones vs Piers Morgan [Re: in the dog house!]
in the dog house!
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LMAO !!! I wasn't blowing my stack \:D but judging by your comment you clearly are sir. Take your blood pressure meds and take it easy.
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#3116447 - 01/09/13 03:22 PM Re: Alex Jones vs Piers Morgan [Re: in the dog house!]
TAFKAP
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10-4
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#3116616 - 01/09/13 04:58 PM Re: Alex Jones vs Piers Morgan [Re: in the dog house!]
Crosshairy
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I'm glad Jones support the 2A, but I agree that the target audience includes those who are "swing voters." Sometimes winning a shouting match has unintended consequences. Hopefully that whole ordeal did more good than harm.

 Originally Posted By: in the dog house!

And never have any steel structures on earth ever collapsed due to fire.


You are the second person I've heard mention this very odd statistic. I'm not trying to pick on you, but how in the world could someone document such a thing? Is it possible that the actual statistic you are thinking of is something like "no steel-reinforced skyscrapers" or something? It's absolutely false that no steel structures have fallen.

I'm a chemical engineer in an oil refinery and am also a certified industrial firefighter (went to a bunch of classes after joining the volunteer department, not that big of a deal). At any rate, I have seen numerous videos where a hydrocarbon-fueled fire (be it jet fuel, diesel, propane, or whatever) caused a steel structure to yield and collapse. It happened within my own plant last August, and this wasn't even a building with a giant, towering hulk of material on top like a skyscraper (it was ~ 100 feet tall). Nor were these structures impacted by gigantic aircraft traveling at hundreds of miles an hour to weaken them from the get-go.

I'm not getting into all the other details of the 9/11 stuff, because I'm certainly not privy to the real info, just what other people cough up for us to sift through. I just wanted to set that one particular point straight.
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#3116637 - 01/09/13 05:16 PM Re: Alex Jones vs Piers Morgan [Re: Crosshairy]
de novo
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http://www.wtc7.net/buildingfires.html

http://www.wtc7.net/toc.html

This is an entire website devoted to WTC 7 collapse. I'll let the experts debunk the information.
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#3116757 - 01/09/13 06:14 PM Re: Alex Jones vs Piers Morgan [Re: de novo]
TAFKAP
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It's a pretty lame website that doesn't offer much beyond anecdotal observations and opinions. It doesn't address the structural forces induced in a wounded building, nor the myriads of other factors that contributed. Perhaps the collapse of two of the largest structures in the world imparted forces on the building that will never be understood. But it's easier to discount the conspiracy, rather than proving a case with long-destroyed evidence.

1) No indications of explosions --> AHA! Thermite was used!
2) No indications of extreme heat on any structural members
3) A very improbable and unlikely ability to even strategically place thermite in key structural locations to cause a collapse
4) Visible building deformation prior to the collapse

Unfortunately, it's inherent in human nature to disregard the obvious and look for more sinister and deceptive plots, than to just accept that your eyes saw exactly what they saw.
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#3116905 - 01/09/13 07:39 PM Re: Alex Jones vs Piers Morgan [Re: TAFKAP]
de novo
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 Originally Posted By: TAFKAP

Unfortunately, it's inherent in human nature to disregard the obvious and look for more sinister and deceptive plots, than to just accept that your eyes saw exactly what they saw.


It's inherent in human behavior to discern the truth. The last thing I want to believe is that my government played any part in a sinister and deceptive plot.

I have no problem questioning every aspect of an event which led to a disastrous foreign policy and the erosion of our constitutional rights here at home. Instead we are given the state's official story and any variation is labeled a whack job conspiracy. I'll let the experts debate whether our government played any role in 9/11. What is not up for debate is the fact that our government, both Republicans and Democrats, have been using 9/11 for over a decade to trample on the Constitution and eliminate personal freedom.

Anyone who opposed the Patriot Act and any other freedom grabbing bills (libertarians) was labeled a paranoid, unAmerican whack job. A decade later most of their predictions about how the law would be used against Americans are coming true.
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#3117196 - 01/10/13 02:04 AM Re: Alex Jones vs Piers Morgan [Re: infoman jr.]
BamaProud
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Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 6826
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 Originally Posted By: infoman jr.


If you agree with the speaker before they begin and he starts yelling, you fist pump and cheer. But if you're an objective listener on the fence about the issue, and you listen to Jones yell and rant, he instantly loses credibility whether or not he presents facts.


spot on.
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#3117379 - 01/10/13 08:28 AM Re: Alex Jones vs Piers Morgan [Re: BamaProud]
Crosshairy
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Registered: 08/22/06
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So I was right - they are saying "steel framed buildings".

The stuff inside of a typical office building is mainly combustible - a low density of flammable objects. Unless you build a steel-framed building with a better (worse from a safety standpoint) combustion heat source, you are very unlikely to have problems with the structural integrity.

Hydrocarbons are much more energy-dense and create hotter temperatures. Most jet fuel has a minimum flash point of 107 degrees or so, meaning that it takes very little heat to push it over the edge of being flammable. Most folks have experience with burning gasoline in some amount. Jet fuel does not burn quite so readily.

Soaking a combustible surface (say, two floors of an office building filled with furniture and other plastic stuff) with jet fuel will boost the flame temperature while extending the duration of the burn relative to a pool fire.

A pool fire by itself (meaning an accumulation on the ground like a large puddle) of sufficient volume has been known to cause structural steel to sag and yield in industrial environments. I've seen too many refinery safety videos with this type of content to count. If we add in the extra stuff to burn, the scenario becomes even more believable.

All that said, the statistic that it's only happened that one time with a steel-frame building is not terribly significant (if it's even true). It just means that we don't normally put steel-framed buildings beside stuff that burns really hot. Steel-Based heater, distillation towers, and pipe racks have all fell over, therefore it is possible.


Edited by Crosshairy (01/10/13 08:30 AM)
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#3117548 - 01/10/13 10:27 AM Re: Alex Jones vs Piers Morgan [Re: Crosshairy]
in the dog house!
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Still doesn't explain how WTC7 fell from just fire, and no jet fuel there. Yall just keep talking about WTC 1 and 2
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#3117579 - 01/10/13 10:50 AM Re: Alex Jones vs Piers Morgan [Re: Crosshairy]
TAFKAP
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Registered: 11/06/09
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Loc: Memphis

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 Originally Posted By: Crosshairy
So I was right - they are saying "steel framed buildings".

The stuff inside of a typical office building is mainly combustible - a low density of flammable objects. Unless you build a steel-framed building with a better (worse from a safety standpoint) combustion heat source, you are very unlikely to have problems with the structural integrity.

Hydrocarbons are much more energy-dense and create hotter temperatures. Most jet fuel has a minimum flash point of 107 degrees or so, meaning that it takes very little heat to push it over the edge of being flammable. Most folks have experience with burning gasoline in some amount. Jet fuel does not burn quite so readily.

Soaking a combustible surface (say, two floors of an office building filled with furniture and other plastic stuff) with jet fuel will boost the flame temperature while extending the duration of the burn relative to a pool fire.

A pool fire by itself (meaning an accumulation on the ground like a large puddle) of sufficient volume has been known to cause structural steel to sag and yield in industrial environments. I've seen too many refinery safety videos with this type of content to count. If we add in the extra stuff to burn, the scenario becomes even more believable.

All that said, the statistic that it's only happened that one time with a steel-frame building is not terribly significant (if it's even true). It just means that we don't normally put steel-framed buildings beside stuff that burns really hot. Steel-Based heater, distillation towers, and pipe racks have all fell over, therefore it is possible.


Then, put all that crap 700' in the air whree the wind is blowing through some relatively small holes.

Blast furnace anyone?
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