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#3116561 - 01/09/13 04:27 PM Re: Webiste to find past county deer records? [Re: AlabamaSwamper]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19199
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: AlabamaSwamper
The low densities back then could have and probably had as much to do as any high grading.

I totally agree that low deer densities (for the habitat) will usually produce a healthier deer herd, including larger antlers per age class on the bucks.

But in much of Tennessee, the deer population may be little different than it was in the 1990's, while the general herd health is improved. Consider Henry and Stewart Counties as examples.

 Originally Posted By: AlabamaSwamper
I'm seeing more and bigger bucks every year. It seems there are more 150+ killed around here year after year.

Guess it depends on what you consider "bigger".
There are definitely a lot more 110 to 130-class bucks being taken now annually in TN than compared to a decade ago and farther back. Can't say I'm seeing more 150+ coming from most of the areas I hunt, although there are a lot more bucks with that potential being produced, just mostly killed as 110 to 130-class younger bucks aging 2 1/2 or 3 1/2.

Since 1998, we have had an expanding deer herd in some counties, mostly in East TN, and extreme West TN (like Lake/Obion Counties). IMO,this deer herd expansion in both the East and Western parts of Tennessee has greatly benefited the deer herd health in Middle TN since 1998. As a whole, wouldn't we expect to see more top-end scoring bucks (let's just say above a 160 net for typicals) showing up now than say back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's?

Not wanting anyone to "take me wrong" here, as I do believe right now, "These are the good ole days" of Tennessee's deer hunting. My question is simply how is it that we're taking so many older bucks now, yet more with larger antlers were being recorded in the record bucks BEFORE we were killing so many 110 to 130-class bucks?

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#3116587 - 01/09/13 04:41 PM Re: Webiste to find past county deer records? [Re: Wes Parrish]
bowriter
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 41794
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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Many...many big bucks are notin the registry or any other record keeping book. I found this out when I did some research for a magazine article I was writing back in 2004 and I am as guilty, if that is the correct term, as anybody.

Wes' high grading theory is sure food for thought. Of course, it is also flawed. The herd is healthier in terms of a far better sex and age ratio. That does not compute to more big bucks. The obvious reason for the lack of huge or state record caliber bucks is simple.

Game cams.
_________________________

Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#3117103 - 01/09/13 10:02 PM Re: Webiste to find past county deer records? [Re: bowriter]
MRUTVOL
6 Point


Registered: 12/16/02
Posts: 882
Loc: Goodlettsville,Tennessee,USA

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 Originally Posted By: bowriter
Many...many big bucks are notin the registry or any other record keeping book. I found this out when I did some research for a magazine article I was writing back in 2004 and I am as guilty, if that is the correct term, as anybody.

Game cams.


X2....
The registry is far from an accurate measure of what is and has been killed in this state. Personally I have 4 maybe 5 that would go into it but that just is not my thing and a hassle to haul a bunch of mounted deer heads miles away to get scored. I also heard you had to have the kill tags for them and I usually do not keep them for that long of time. Do not know if that is true or not. The only registry I would bother to get in is the BC or P&Y and looks like I am not going to get in those unless something happens quick. \:\(

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#3117266 - 01/10/13 06:37 AM Re: Webiste to find past county deer records? [Re: MRUTVOL]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19199
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: MRUTVOL
The registry is far from an accurate measure of what is and has been killed in this state. Personally I have 4 maybe 5 that would go into it but that just is not my thing and a hassle to haul a bunch of mounted deer heads miles away to get scored.

x Many and I totally agree.
BUT, the "TREND" data provided by this registry should still be good?
I believe it should be.

And speaking of what's NOT in this registry, I'd speculate that the smaller bucks that qualify are the ones LESS likely to be included, while the more TOP-END bucks are more likely. If that's the case, it's even more telling that antler-high grading of young bucks may be the number one reason we're not seeing a lot more high-scoring mature bucks (as we are killing a lot more mature bucks).

What I'm saying is it doesn't appear that top-end high-scoring mature bucks are being represented in the herd in the same percentage today, as they were when nearly all hunters were non-selective, just shooting any and every buck they could. If we are now killing say 5x more mature bucks, wouldn't it be a reasonable expectation to be seeing 5x more top-end high-scoring bucks in those records over the last decade compared to the decade prior to that?

Ironically, at least in the case of the "Typical" category, it appears we're seeing relatively fewer entries when it comes to bucks net-scoring somewhere around 150-160 and up. I'm just asking/wondering how & why could this be?

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#3117283 - 01/10/13 07:00 AM Re: Webiste to find past county deer records? [Re: Wes Parrish]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
14 Point


Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 7857
Loc: Atoka, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
What I'm saying is it doesn't appear that top-end high-scoring mature bucks are being represented in the herd in the same percentage today, as they were when nearly all hunters were non-selective, just shooting any and every buck they could. If we are now killing say 5x more mature bucks, wouldn't it be a reasonable expectation to be seeing 5x more top-end high-scoring bucks in those records over the last decade compared to the decade prior to that?

Ironically, at least in the case of the "Typical" category, it appears we're seeing relatively fewer entries when it comes to bucks net-scoring somewhere around 150-160 and up. I'm just asking/wondering how & why could this be?
I agree Wes and have been asking this same question for the last five or so years. I, like you, think it has to do with the deer hunters today high grading the standing crop of bucks (I am guilty of it too) whereas back in my granddad's years they did not put any emphasis on the size of the buck, they just shot deer. If you will, they (old school deer hunters) killed more of a random sample of the herd whereas today a good deal of deer hunters target the best headgear of each cohort, which in turn knocks out those with the most potential in out years.
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Andy S.

If I had saved all the money I spent on hunting, I'd spend it on hunting.

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#3117340 - 01/10/13 07:59 AM Re: Webiste to find past county deer records? [Re: bowriter]
8 POINTS OR BETTER
10 Point


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 4083
Loc: Hardin, Co.

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 Originally Posted By: bowriter
Many...many big bucks are notin the registry or any other record keeping book. I found this out when I did some research for a magazine article I was writing back in 2004 and I am as guilty, if that is the correct term, as anybody.

Wes' high grading theory is sure food for thought.


x2

I had two in the registry, but had them taken out.

With all the big bucks that are being killed now days, its not as big a deal to kill a 140+ buck now days as it was 20 or 30 years ago. So a lot of people don't put them in the registry.

But Wes I still believe in your high grading theory.
_________________________
" Some localities are willing to work for their sport, and have plenty. Others are willing merely to take what comes easy, and have little or none." - Aldo Leopold

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#3117635 - 01/10/13 11:31 AM Re: Webiste to find past county deer records? [Re: Andy S.]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19199
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Andy S.
. . . . . . been asking this same question for the last five or so years. I, like you, think it has to do with the deer hunters today high grading the standing crop of bucks (I am guilty of it too) whereas back in my granddad's years they did not put any emphasis on the size of the buck, they just shot deer. If you will, they (old school deer hunters) killed more of a random sample of the herd whereas today a good deal of deer hunters target the best headgear of each cohort, which in turn knocks out those with the most potential in out years.

Andy, I believe you have a better way with the words than I, and that's what I was trying to say. \:\)

Taking a step farther than "of each cohort", I'd say it's specifically the 2 1/2 and 3 1/2-yr-old cohorts that are experiencing the most dramatic antler high-grading, while the most exceptional of the yearling cohort may also be getting hard hit in some areas where many hunters use "4 on a side" or "8 points" as their criteria in defining a "shooter" buck.

Speaking of being "guilty", I personally took a most exceptional yearling buck in 1997 (at a time in my hunting when I was mostly focused on antlers, only intended to take "8 points or better AND wider than their ears"). Not only did this yearling have the "required 8 points" but also a spread of over 16 inches! It was after my having a hard time believing that a yearling buck could be THAT big that I began focusing on age at least as much as antlers, the only way to greatly decrease the antler high-grading issue imo. Based on antler age growth models, I killed a B&C buck there in 1997, but just 3 or 4 years before he acquired the age to "express" more of his potential.

More telling, earlier that morning, there was a smaller buck which came by with the typical little 4-pt antlers of a yearling buck. Since his antlers didn't measure up to my "antler restrictions", I let him walk. Had I not been using "antler restrictions", I'd have killed the small buck, and probably never even seen the 8-pt yearling that came along later, which was exactly what happened more before hunters were using antler restrictions on a widespread basis.

As our overall herd health has improved, those individual bucks born with the best antler genetics may be "standing out" more as yearlings and 2 1/2's than they would have a couple decades ago. Perhaps in the past, a particular yearling buck might have had the genetic potential to be an 8-pt yearling, but only "expressed" himself as a 4-pt yearling, and might not have been as likely to get shot in 1995 as he would as an 8-pt yearling in 2012.

With improved herd health, bucks may be "expressing" more of their potential at younger ages (when they're more vulnerable to being selectively killed by a human hunter)???

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#3118101 - 01/10/13 05:26 PM Re: Webiste to find past county deer records? [Re: 8 POINTS OR BETTER]
tickweed
10 Point


Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 4764
Loc: medon,Tn.

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 Originally Posted By: 8 POINTS OR BETTER
 Originally Posted By: bowriter
Many...many big bucks are notin the registry or any other record keeping book. I found this out when I did some research for a magazine article I was writing back in 2004 and I am as guilty, if that is the correct term, as anybody.

Wes' high grading theory is sure food for thought.


x2

I had two in the registry, but had them taken out.

With all the big bucks that are being killed now days, its not as big a deal to kill a 140+ buck now days as it was 20 or 30 years ago. So a lot of people don't put them in the registry.

But Wes I still believe in your high grading theory.
As for it being a big deal or not, I dont know lots of people taking 140 inch deer anywhere. Just a handful each year around this area in west Tn. Several in Fayette, maybe the Nashville basin, but these areas have always produced better than average antler growth. May be some truth to the theory, but I wish I could find these better than average bucks.
_________________________
The hardest thing about Bowhunting Turkeys is leaving the gun at home!

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#3126981 - 01/16/13 04:04 PM Re: Webiste to find past county deer records? [Re: 8 POINTS OR BETTER]
shaggy
Button


Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 14
Loc: TN

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What was the reason that you had them removed? I can understand not wanting people to know where the deer was killed to prevent trespassing and to keep someone from leasing the place out from underneath you, but the website only lists your name. I like to have my deer scored for several reasons. One is so that I know what it scores so I can better judge deer(sure I can and do score them, it's just nice to have it confirmed). Two is just to see where the deer stands in your county. If I spent all that time in the field, driving back and forth, skinning the deer, and paying for a taxidermist, taking it off the wall and driving a few miles to have it scored is nothing. The event is really fun too. You can judge the deer and see how close you get, talk to people that hunt around you, eat some good food, and just fellowship. If everyone is after the big buck, why not get it scored? If we all had them scored could it help TWRA to see if what they are doing is helping?
_________________________
You gotta be there, you can't kill 'em from the couch.

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