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#3079492 - 12/14/12 03:58 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: BSK]
String Music
8 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 1689
Loc: Knoxville

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
I fully agree String Music. Rarely do I see a buck that was small for his age at 3 1/2 end up being way above average at maturity. A smaller than average 3 1/2 may turn into an average or slightly above average mature buck, but not one of the "WAY above average" mature bucks. The "way above average" mature bucks were almost always way above average 3 1/2s and even 2 1/2s.

In fact, this plays heavily in Wes' high-grading theory. We are greatly reducing the number of top-end mature bucks by killing a high percentage of the top-end 2 1/2s.


This is another reason why trail cameras are so important. I want to identify the ones with potential and make sure everybody knows they are off limits. If we have young hunters come up, we will let them shoot the ones with less potential but the others continue to be off limits.

We own about acres 1, 500 acres.
_________________________
"For I know the plans I have for you..." Jer. 29:11

Hunting Photography:

facebook.com/AMOutdoorPhotography

www.amcunninghamoutdoors.com


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#3079564 - 12/14/12 04:45 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: String Music]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19316
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: String Music
This was him two years ago:



I think your tracking and documentation of this particular buck is a testament to what we COULD have a LOT MORE OF if we simply were NOT killing off most of our above average 2 1/2-yr-old bucks.

Everyone go back and take another look at this buck when he was presumed to be 3 1/2. Would you say he was very much beyond an "average" 3 1/2 in the antler department? No doubt he was above average (as a 2 1/2 & 3 1/2), but my point is he wasn't all that much above "average".

Yet just look at what he became! HUGELY ANTLERED at 4 1/2 and older!

We hunters who claim we want to see and kill more very large antlered mature bucks have become our own cause of it not happening more. Every time we kill an above average 2 1/2 or 3 1/2, we're eliminating a lot of potential opportunity for something we claim we want more (huge antlers).

Again, I think it's amazing that this buck grew such large antlers when he became 4 1/2 and older. Also think we would see a lot like this if we weren't killing them as 2 1/2's & 3 1/2's.
This one tells the story in pictures. \:\)

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#3079567 - 12/14/12 04:47 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: Wes Parrish]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19316
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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By the way, bucks like this are not what QDM is all about. \:\)
But I'd sure like to see a lot more of them, and the main reason we're not is because it's mainly the smaller-than-average-antlered bucks that are surviving to 4 1/2 or older in Tennessee, i.e. Wesley's High-Grading Law (no longer a theory).

 Originally Posted By: BSK
In fact, this plays heavily in Wes' high-grading theory. We are greatly reducing the number of top-end mature bucks by killing a high percentage of the top-end 2 1/2s.

HA! \:D
BSK is coming around to this reality!

I actually think there may be less antler-high-grading in East TN than Middle TN because a higher percentage of the East TN hunters are shooting the first buck they see. Whereas over so much of Middle TN, more hunters are passing up the smaller antlered ones, then killing the larger-antlered 2 1/2's at a higher rate.

By the way, nearly all the largest antlered 2 1/2's I get pics of, they are killed by QDM-minded hunters. Nearly all the really small antlered 2 1/2's are living to 4 1/2 and older.

No doubt, QDM is producing an overall healthier deer herd, and a lot more 2 1/2 and older bucks. IMO, large-scale QDM does a lot more good than harm. But are we getting more or fewer large antlered older bucks with the "model" form of QDM that protects yearling bucks, while mainly targeting the larger antlered 2 1/2's?

My latest revelation is the best way to insure a top-end 2 1/2's survival to 3 1/2 is to shoot off one of his antlers, i.e. no one wants to kill him then. \:D
P.S. Not being serious about shooting them off, but is amazing how they survive the hunters should they break off a main beam.

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#3079589 - 12/14/12 05:08 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
My latest revelation is the best way to insure a top-end 2 1/2's survival to 3 1/2 is to shoot off one of his antlers...


That's pretty funny Wes, but might actually be true! \:\)
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3080498 - 12/15/12 11:48 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: BSK]
String Music
8 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 1689
Loc: Knoxville

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I just wanted to add that the title is a bit misleading. I don't base our management success solely on producing this caliber of deer. There certainly are many aspects of our program that define success aside from antler size.
_________________________
"For I know the plans I have for you..." Jer. 29:11

Hunting Photography:

facebook.com/AMOutdoorPhotography

www.amcunninghamoutdoors.com


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#3080503 - 12/15/12 11:51 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: Wes Parrish]
String Music
8 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 1689
Loc: Knoxville

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: String Music
This was him two years ago:



I think your tracking and documentation of this particular buck is a testament to what we COULD have a LOT MORE OF if we simply were NOT killing off most of our above average 2 1/2-yr-old bucks.

Everyone go back and take another look at this buck when he was presumed to be 3 1/2. Would you say he was very much beyond an "average" 3 1/2 in the antler department? No doubt he was above average (as a 2 1/2 & 3 1/2), but my point is he wasn't all that much above "average".

Yet just look at what he became! HUGELY ANTLERED at 4 1/2 and older!

We hunters who claim we want to see and kill more very large antlered mature bucks have become our own cause of it not happening more. Every time we kill an above average 2 1/2 or 3 1/2, we're eliminating a lot of potential opportunity for something we claim we want more (huge antlers).

Again, I think it's amazing that this buck grew such large antlers when he became 4 1/2 and older. Also think we would see a lot like this if we weren't killing them as 2 1/2's & 3 1/2's.
This one tells the story in pictures. \:\)


This may have been a picture of him when he was 2 1/2. Also, this picture was taken at the end of January when body size can be a bit misleading.

I'm almost certain he was 4 1/2 last year and 5 1/2 this year. If he was only 4 1/2 this year I can only imagine/dream about what he would have been next year.
_________________________
"For I know the plans I have for you..." Jer. 29:11

Hunting Photography:

facebook.com/AMOutdoorPhotography

www.amcunninghamoutdoors.com


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#3080513 - 12/15/12 12:04 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: String Music]
feathersandfur2214
4 Point


Registered: 02/20/11
Posts: 467
Loc: Roane Co, TN

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That is an awesone buck ! Given the opportunity most any are can produce high caliber deer. You just have to manage them according to what you have. Even though you did not get to shoot him you produced a truu trophy buck !
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#3080515 - 12/15/12 12:05 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: String Music]
feathersandfur2214
4 Point


Registered: 02/20/11
Posts: 467
Loc: Roane Co, TN

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That is an awesome buck ! Given the opportunity most any area can produce high caliber deer. You just have to manage them according to what you have. Even though you did not get to shoot him you produced a true trophy buck !
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#3080632 - 12/15/12 02:10 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: feathersandfur2214]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65411
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: feathersandfur2214
That is an awesome buck ! Given the opportunity most any area can produce high caliber deer. You just have to manage them according to what you have.


Just don't expect 170-class bucks to be a "normal" result. That buck is truly exceptional, and certainly not normal.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3080639 - 12/15/12 02:16 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19316
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Just don't expect 170-class bucks to be a "normal" result. That buck is truly exceptional, and certainly not normal.

I agree.

But would you agree we could have many times more 140-plus 4 1/2 & older bucks if we weren't killing most of them as 90-110-class 2 1/2's?
Or killing them even sooner when they're 8-point yearlings?

If you have it handy, how about posting your little chart of average antler score gains by age?

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