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#3078181 - 12/13/12 09:04 PM QDM Success in East TN
String Music
8 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Knoxville

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Some of you that have followed my posts may know that the land I hunt and manage (with my father and uncle) is located in East Tennessee. We have taken some truly special deer off our property the last few years.

When my father and uncle purchased the property 13 years ago, the only deer sign we saw the entire first year was a single deer track. We didn't see the first deer until the second year.

Anyways, this year we had our first potential booner on our property. I've been following this buck since he was 2 1/2 years old. I have his sheds and hundreds of trail cam pics of him.

Unfortunately, I found out yesterday that one of the members on the lease adjoining our property killed him a week ago. As a 17 pointer, he scored 170. I'm sick over it, but this just goes to show that patience and the proper management techniques can produce great bucks even in areas where the odds are stacked against you.

He has a split G3 on the left side and a split G2 on the right side. He was 5 1/2 and it appears his left eye has been knocked out. I'd like to think the first buck I killed this year knocked his eye out, but who knows...

Here are the last pictures I have of him before he was killed (*sigh*).



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"For I know the plans I have for you..." Jer. 29:11


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#3078303 - 12/13/12 10:32 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: String Music]
BowGirl
6 Point


Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 729
Loc: Tennessee

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Good grief what a deer.
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#3078329 - 12/13/12 11:05 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: BowGirl]
lpo1981
6 Point


Registered: 01/20/12
Posts: 674
Loc: Dickson, TN

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Wow that's a stud!!!
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#3078540 - 12/14/12 07:29 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: lpo1981]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Holy crap! 170 from East TN. That's a truly unique and rare buck.
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3078557 - 12/14/12 07:40 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: BSK]
Football Hunter
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Registered: 10/22/07
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Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

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nice buck for sure
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#3078586 - 12/14/12 07:54 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: BSK]
String Music
8 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Knoxville

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Extremely rare. That's why it's incredibly difficult to swallow that someone else killed him! I feel like I lost a best friend...

Genetics played a HUGE role in his size. I could tell when he was a 3 yr old that he had potential. With our inability to provide high-quality food, we can usually tell which bucks have potential when they are younger.

This was him two years ago:



And then him last year:



_________________________
"For I know the plans I have for you..." Jer. 29:11


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#3078624 - 12/14/12 08:18 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: String Music]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN

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I fully agree String Music. Rarely do I see a buck that was small for his age at 3 1/2 end up being way above average at maturity. A smaller than average 3 1/2 may turn into an average or slightly above average mature buck, but not one of the "WAY above average" mature bucks. The "way above average" mature bucks were almost always way above average 3 1/2s and even 2 1/2s.

In fact, this plays heavily in Wes' high-grading theory. We are greatly reducing the number of top-end mature bucks by killing a high percentage of the top-end 2 1/2s.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3078655 - 12/14/12 08:34 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: BSK]
Bayou Buck
10 Point


Registered: 05/11/09
Posts: 2725
Loc: Spring Hill / Perry Co

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Sucks you didnt get a chance at him! He was definately a stud! how many acres is your family's farm?
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#3079419 - 12/14/12 03:25 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: Bayou Buck]
smstone22
16 Point


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 16954
Loc: Allardt, TN

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That is amazing. You certainly can produce great bucks even over here in the rough terrain, no major ag areas.
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#3079438 - 12/14/12 03:33 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: Bayou Buck]
bigtex
8 Point


Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 1994
Loc: Brush Creek

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 Originally Posted By: Bayou Buck
Sucks you didnt get a chance at him! He was definately a stud! how many acres is your family's farm?


A stud for sure!! I'm curious as well about how many acres you have.
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#3079492 - 12/14/12 03:58 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: BSK]
String Music
8 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Knoxville

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
I fully agree String Music. Rarely do I see a buck that was small for his age at 3 1/2 end up being way above average at maturity. A smaller than average 3 1/2 may turn into an average or slightly above average mature buck, but not one of the "WAY above average" mature bucks. The "way above average" mature bucks were almost always way above average 3 1/2s and even 2 1/2s.

In fact, this plays heavily in Wes' high-grading theory. We are greatly reducing the number of top-end mature bucks by killing a high percentage of the top-end 2 1/2s.


This is another reason why trail cameras are so important. I want to identify the ones with potential and make sure everybody knows they are off limits. If we have young hunters come up, we will let them shoot the ones with less potential but the others continue to be off limits.

We own about acres 1, 500 acres.
_________________________
"For I know the plans I have for you..." Jer. 29:11


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#3079564 - 12/14/12 04:45 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: String Music]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19470
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: String Music
This was him two years ago:



I think your tracking and documentation of this particular buck is a testament to what we COULD have a LOT MORE OF if we simply were NOT killing off most of our above average 2 1/2-yr-old bucks.

Everyone go back and take another look at this buck when he was presumed to be 3 1/2. Would you say he was very much beyond an "average" 3 1/2 in the antler department? No doubt he was above average (as a 2 1/2 & 3 1/2), but my point is he wasn't all that much above "average".

Yet just look at what he became! HUGELY ANTLERED at 4 1/2 and older!

We hunters who claim we want to see and kill more very large antlered mature bucks have become our own cause of it not happening more. Every time we kill an above average 2 1/2 or 3 1/2, we're eliminating a lot of potential opportunity for something we claim we want more (huge antlers).

Again, I think it's amazing that this buck grew such large antlers when he became 4 1/2 and older. Also think we would see a lot like this if we weren't killing them as 2 1/2's & 3 1/2's.
This one tells the story in pictures. \:\)

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#3079567 - 12/14/12 04:47 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: Wes Parrish]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19470
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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By the way, bucks like this are not what QDM is all about. \:\)
But I'd sure like to see a lot more of them, and the main reason we're not is because it's mainly the smaller-than-average-antlered bucks that are surviving to 4 1/2 or older in Tennessee, i.e. Wesley's High-Grading Law (no longer a theory).

 Originally Posted By: BSK
In fact, this plays heavily in Wes' high-grading theory. We are greatly reducing the number of top-end mature bucks by killing a high percentage of the top-end 2 1/2s.

HA! \:D
BSK is coming around to this reality!

I actually think there may be less antler-high-grading in East TN than Middle TN because a higher percentage of the East TN hunters are shooting the first buck they see. Whereas over so much of Middle TN, more hunters are passing up the smaller antlered ones, then killing the larger-antlered 2 1/2's at a higher rate.

By the way, nearly all the largest antlered 2 1/2's I get pics of, they are killed by QDM-minded hunters. Nearly all the really small antlered 2 1/2's are living to 4 1/2 and older.

No doubt, QDM is producing an overall healthier deer herd, and a lot more 2 1/2 and older bucks. IMO, large-scale QDM does a lot more good than harm. But are we getting more or fewer large antlered older bucks with the "model" form of QDM that protects yearling bucks, while mainly targeting the larger antlered 2 1/2's?

My latest revelation is the best way to insure a top-end 2 1/2's survival to 3 1/2 is to shoot off one of his antlers, i.e. no one wants to kill him then. \:D
P.S. Not being serious about shooting them off, but is amazing how they survive the hunters should they break off a main beam.

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#3079589 - 12/14/12 05:08 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
My latest revelation is the best way to insure a top-end 2 1/2's survival to 3 1/2 is to shoot off one of his antlers...


That's pretty funny Wes, but might actually be true! \:\)
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3080498 - 12/15/12 11:48 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: BSK]
String Music
8 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Knoxville

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I just wanted to add that the title is a bit misleading. I don't base our management success solely on producing this caliber of deer. There certainly are many aspects of our program that define success aside from antler size.
_________________________
"For I know the plans I have for you..." Jer. 29:11


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#3080503 - 12/15/12 11:51 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: Wes Parrish]
String Music
8 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Knoxville

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: String Music
This was him two years ago:



I think your tracking and documentation of this particular buck is a testament to what we COULD have a LOT MORE OF if we simply were NOT killing off most of our above average 2 1/2-yr-old bucks.

Everyone go back and take another look at this buck when he was presumed to be 3 1/2. Would you say he was very much beyond an "average" 3 1/2 in the antler department? No doubt he was above average (as a 2 1/2 & 3 1/2), but my point is he wasn't all that much above "average".

Yet just look at what he became! HUGELY ANTLERED at 4 1/2 and older!

We hunters who claim we want to see and kill more very large antlered mature bucks have become our own cause of it not happening more. Every time we kill an above average 2 1/2 or 3 1/2, we're eliminating a lot of potential opportunity for something we claim we want more (huge antlers).

Again, I think it's amazing that this buck grew such large antlers when he became 4 1/2 and older. Also think we would see a lot like this if we weren't killing them as 2 1/2's & 3 1/2's.
This one tells the story in pictures. \:\)


This may have been a picture of him when he was 2 1/2. Also, this picture was taken at the end of January when body size can be a bit misleading.

I'm almost certain he was 4 1/2 last year and 5 1/2 this year. If he was only 4 1/2 this year I can only imagine/dream about what he would have been next year.
_________________________
"For I know the plans I have for you..." Jer. 29:11


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#3080513 - 12/15/12 12:04 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: String Music]
feathersandfur2214
6 Point


Registered: 02/20/11
Posts: 532
Loc: Roane Co, TN

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That is an awesone buck ! Given the opportunity most any are can produce high caliber deer. You just have to manage them according to what you have. Even though you did not get to shoot him you produced a truu trophy buck !
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#3080515 - 12/15/12 12:05 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: String Music]
feathersandfur2214
6 Point


Registered: 02/20/11
Posts: 532
Loc: Roane Co, TN

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That is an awesome buck ! Given the opportunity most any area can produce high caliber deer. You just have to manage them according to what you have. Even though you did not get to shoot him you produced a true trophy buck !
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#3080632 - 12/15/12 02:10 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: feathersandfur2214]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: feathersandfur2214
That is an awesome buck ! Given the opportunity most any area can produce high caliber deer. You just have to manage them according to what you have.


Just don't expect 170-class bucks to be a "normal" result. That buck is truly exceptional, and certainly not normal.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3080639 - 12/15/12 02:16 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19470
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Just don't expect 170-class bucks to be a "normal" result. That buck is truly exceptional, and certainly not normal.

I agree.

But would you agree we could have many times more 140-plus 4 1/2 & older bucks if we weren't killing most of them as 90-110-class 2 1/2's?
Or killing them even sooner when they're 8-point yearlings?

If you have it handy, how about posting your little chart of average antler score gains by age?

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#3081533 - 12/16/12 08:08 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Just don't expect 170-class bucks to be a "normal" result. That buck is truly exceptional, and certainly not normal.

I agree.

But would you agree we could have many times more 140-plus 4 1/2 & older bucks if we weren't killing most of them as 90-110-class 2 1/2's?
Or killing them even sooner when they're 8-point yearlings?


Yes, I agree with that.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3081565 - 12/16/12 08:30 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: Wes Parrish]
Gravey
16 Point


Registered: 07/20/05
Posts: 19786
Loc: Rutherford / Wilson County Lin...

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Dang what a brute.
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#3082752 - 12/16/12 09:58 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: Gravey]
jmb4wd
8 Point


Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 1188
Loc: Christiana, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Gravey
Dang what a brute.


aint that the truth!

Thats an awesome deer anywhere in TN!
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#3083605 - 12/17/12 02:31 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: BSK]
jmf
Spike


Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 52
Loc: Tennessee, US

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
My latest revelation is the best way to insure a top-end 2 1/2's survival to 3 1/2 is to shoot off one of his antlers...


That's pretty funny Wes, but might actually be true! \:\)


Ha. I told my brother this same thing the other week.

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#3083680 - 12/17/12 03:26 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: Wes Parrish]
tellico4x4
6 Point


Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 940
Loc: Killen, AL

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Very fine deer, congrats on growing him!
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#3084642 - 12/18/12 05:50 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: tellico4x4]
BowGuy84
10 Point


Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 4904
Loc: Nashville, TN and Louisville, ...

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Hoss...nice job documenting it!

What I would give for 1500 acres.

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#3088350 - 12/20/12 10:08 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: BowGuy84]
String Music
8 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Knoxville

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 Originally Posted By: BowGuy84
Hoss...nice job documenting it!

What I would give for 1500 acres.


It certainly is a big chunk, but most of it is unaccessable due to the rugged terrain.
_________________________
"For I know the plans I have for you..." Jer. 29:11


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#3092090 - 12/23/12 08:05 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: String Music]
boweye91
6 Point


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 612
Loc: Tennessee,Kentucky

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Not necissarily a bad thing String Music. Gives them places to hide and you get to hunt then on the fringes (I know you know this based on posts).

Sounds like my land but just about 15 times bigger! My land is super thick and I notice every year, the bucks move into this de facto sanctuary as the fall progresses. I'm actually going in to "rethincken" some of the areas this winter to improve browse and cover...but much smaller patches than what it was/is.

Anyways, fantastic buck and congrats on the 8 pt. I'm impressed with your ability to stay on them while going through law school. My work this year has been nonexistent on my land.

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#3092761 - 12/23/12 05:35 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: boweye91]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
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 Originally Posted By: boweye91
My land is super thick and I notice every year, the bucks move into this de facto sanctuary as the fall progresses. I'm actually going in to "rethincken" some of the areas this winter to improve browse and cover...but much smaller patches than what it was/is.


Good idea. Although I don't have enough data to show the trend clearly enough (yet), the number of different bucks that use my property each deer season appears to be closely tied to the percent of the property in sanctuary cover. As that percentage has risen and fallen over the years, the number of individual bucks using the property during hunting season has risen and fallen in parallel.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3093312 - 12/24/12 06:16 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: BSK]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25536
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: boweye91
My land is super thick and I notice every year, the bucks move into this de facto sanctuary as the fall progresses. I'm actually going in to "rethincken" some of the areas this winter to improve browse and cover...but much smaller patches than what it was/is.


Good idea. Although I don't have enough data to show the trend clearly enough (yet), the number of different bucks that use my property each deer season appears to be closely tied to the percent of the property in sanctuary cover. As that percentage has risen and fallen over the years, the number of individual bucks using the property during hunting season has risen and fallen in parallel.
I agree,but you should have plenty of cover from all the select cut you have been doing the last couple years,wonder why a "down" year this year?
_________________________
The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!

You wont know,if you dont go!


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#3093362 - 12/24/12 07:32 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: Football Hunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: boweye91
My land is super thick and I notice every year, the bucks move into this de facto sanctuary as the fall progresses. I'm actually going in to "rethincken" some of the areas this winter to improve browse and cover...but much smaller patches than what it was/is.


Good idea. Although I don't have enough data to show the trend clearly enough (yet), the number of different bucks that use my property each deer season appears to be closely tied to the percent of the property in sanctuary cover. As that percentage has risen and fallen over the years, the number of individual bucks using the property during hunting season has risen and fallen in parallel.
I agree,but you should have plenty of cover from all the select cut you have been doing the last couple years,wonder why a "down" year this year?


It's not down. 4th highest total buck population yet recorded and tied for 3rd highest number of 2 1/2+ year-old bucks. Just took hunting pressure and the rut to get them to start using the property.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3095818 - 12/26/12 09:02 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: boweye91]
String Music
8 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Knoxville

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 Originally Posted By: boweye91
Not necissarily a bad thing String Music. Gives them places to hide and you get to hunt then on the fringes (I know you know this based on posts).

Sounds like my land but just about 15 times bigger! My land is super thick and I notice every year, the bucks move into this de facto sanctuary as the fall progresses. I'm actually going in to "rethincken" some of the areas this winter to improve browse and cover...but much smaller patches than what it was/is.

Anyways, fantastic buck and congrats on the 8 pt. I'm impressed with your ability to stay on them while going through law school. My work this year has been nonexistent on my land.



That is true in some areas, but in others not even a mountain goat would choose to venture in. Deer would certainly flock to these areas if required (heavy hunting pressure, wildfire, etc), but we try to enhance and protect the areas they prefer to be in and that give us an advantage when hunting.
_________________________
"For I know the plans I have for you..." Jer. 29:11


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#3098409 - 12/27/12 09:51 PM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: String Music]
KillenTime
4 Point


Registered: 12/25/12
Posts: 257
Loc: West Tn.

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Great looking deer! If everybody would manage their property like this, people would want to hunt in Tennessee instead of looking for outfitters in other states to get a trophy.Good Job!
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#3098680 - 12/28/12 08:11 AM Re: QDM Success in East TN [Re: String Music]
Winchester
Non-Typical


Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 27878
Loc: TN

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 Originally Posted By: String Music
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: String Music
This was him two years ago:



I think your tracking and documentation of this particular buck is a testament to what we COULD have a LOT MORE OF if we simply were NOT killing off most of our above average 2 1/2-yr-old bucks.

Everyone go back and take another look at this buck when he was presumed to be 3 1/2. Would you say he was very much beyond an "average" 3 1/2 in the antler department? No doubt he was above average (as a 2 1/2 & 3 1/2), but my point is he wasn't all that much above "average".

Yet just look at what he became! HUGELY ANTLERED at 4 1/2 and older!

We hunters who claim we want to see and kill more very large antlered mature bucks have become our own cause of it not happening more. Every time we kill an above average 2 1/2 or 3 1/2, we're eliminating a lot of potential opportunity for something we claim we want more (huge antlers).

Again, I think it's amazing that this buck grew such large antlers when he became 4 1/2 and older. Also think we would see a lot like this if we weren't killing them as 2 1/2's & 3 1/2's.
This one tells the story in pictures. \:\)


This may have been a picture of him when he was 2 1/2. Also, this picture was taken at the end of January when body size can be a bit misleading.

I'm almost certain he was 4 1/2 last year and 5 1/2 this year. If he was only 4 1/2 this year I can only imagine/dream about what he would have been next year.

While I agree that high grading is somewhat of an issue and killing top end 3 1/2's in high #'s definitely hurts the chances of having truly huge racked bucks at maturity, this deer proves its not always the case. If this pic is when the buck is 3 1/2 he's definitely not way above average, actually probably dead on average for his age and antlers here in East TN. Then he makes a monstrous jump at 4 1/2 and 5 1/2. While I agree high grading exists, If anything I think this deer defies the high grading theory somewhat! Truly an awesome buck regardless string, hate you didnt get to finish the deal!

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