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#3075805 - 12/12/12 12:32 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: chiggerbit]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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Your completely wrong in regards to shotguns. You can get a New England Firearms/Harrington and Richardson single shot 12 or 20 ga with a rifled barrel for just over a couple hundred bucks, and if you have a single shot NEF or H&R shotgun or rifle, you can have a barrel placed on yours for about 80.00 or less.

They shoot extremely well, and with the heft, they weigh more than most muzzleloaders and the recoil is not all that bad. I have a Weatherby PA-459 tactical shotgun that is lightweight and slugs do kick but not overly bad...as long as you have a good recoil pad, and most companies now supply good ones, your fine. In regards to muzzleloader accuracy and all of the people on here who are stating the in-lines are just as traditional as any other muzzleloader, please reference this article:

Long-Range Muzzleloading
The accuracy and effective reach of modern blackpowder rifles has benefited greatly from recent developments in the industry.

By Mark Ness, American Hunter Magazine

11/20/2012
My first experience with muzzleloader hunting occurred in the 1980s when my father purchased two Hawken caplock rifles. The muzzleloading deer season was relatively new and started before the regular firearm season, giving hunters an early start before the deer got spooky.
My father was a competitive pistol shooter in the Army and taught me to shoot a pistol before any other type of firearm. We had entered a new type of shooting that neither one of us was familiar with. I remember going to the range and shooting with percussion caps, loose power and lead bullets. At 50 yards our groups were marginal and beyond 50 we couldn’t get our shots to group at all. We never did harvest any deer using this combo and I grew disenchanted with smokepole hunting.
That changed in 2002 when the Marriott Ranch in Virginia invited me to hunt whitetail deer on their property. For the first time ever, they were opening up the Ranch for guided hunts, a great opportunity but with one catch—the invitation was for muzzleloader season. I consulted with my colleague John Zent from NRA Publications, and he updated me on developments that had transformed muzzleloading, including Pyrodex pellets, sabot bullets and the use of rifle scopes, all of which greatly enhanced the accuracy and effective reach of modern blackpowder rifles. Following John’s suggestions, I was able to kill an 8-point buck at nearly 100 yards.
Since then I’ve been hooked on muzzleloader hunting, purchasing new rifles, mounting scopes on them and trying out different sabot bullets. Accuracy was good out to 100 yards. But in a lot of instances I would see game beyond 100 yards and would not take a shot because I was unsure of the bullet drop.
Thus began my quest to find muzzleloading equipment capable of shooting at longer ranges. I settled on a .50-cal. T/C Omega rifle with a stainless steel barrel. I like the idea of a stainless steel barrel with an action that dropped from the bottom and one that is not hinged. My reasoning was that it would be more rugged and thus more accurate.
For sights I opted for a Leupold UltimateSlam scope with the BDC reticle. The scope adjusts to match the trajectories of different propellant charges, as well as a setting for shotgun slugs. You sight-in at 100 yards and there are successive drop-point crosshairs for 150, 200, 250 and 300 yards.
I settled on a load consisting of three .50-cal. Pyrodex pellets, a 209 primer and the Barnes 250-gr. Spit-Fire TMZ bullet that has a tapering, semi-spitzer ogive optimal to long-range performance. I zeroed my Omega at 100 yards, and at 200 yards my shots impacted only a few inches below point of aim. I took this combo to the Marriott Ranch and harvested a doe at 211 yards and a black bear at 158 yards using the appropriate aiming points. I was so impressed with the Leupold scope that I reviewed it.
The following year NRA Secretary Jim Land and I were sighting-in during late summer in preparation for the upcoming season, but I was unable to get consistent grouping. Upon examining the sabots, I could see they were being blown apart because of excessive pressure. Presuming this was caused by the high summertime temperature (upper 80s), I switched to two pellets and once again my Omega delivered tight groups. Using the Leupold scope’s two-pellet setting, shots were dead on at 200 yards. Since then I have hunted exclusively with two 50-gr. pellets, a loading that is still plenty accurate at longer distances but which produces less recoil.
I just returned from a deer hunt on the Marriott Ranch and was not disappointed with my rifle’s long-range performance as I was able to harvest the one of the biggest bucks ever taken there at 213 yards using the Leupold’s 200-yard dot. The deer’s actual weight was 238 lbs. before field dressing and it had 10 points. On the last morning I harvested a turkey at 100 yards, although not a great distance, it nonetheless required an accurate shot at that small target.
With all the improvements in rifles, scopes, bullets and powder, today’s muzzleloading rifles rival the accuracy of many center-fires out to 200 yards and possibly even farther. Hunters who gear up accordingly and put in the range time to master their equipment, are not only able to extend their seasons, but can count on long-range performance when an opportunity comes along.

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#3075810 - 12/12/12 12:37 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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so taking 200+ yards shots with the new BDC scopes that everyone is making now, is more traditional and more difficult to use than a good ole single shot bead sighted shotgun with a slug or even one with open sights or an equal scope.hahahahahahahahahaha what a joke...
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#3075816 - 12/12/12 12:40 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

Offline
Here is one other article to reference that compares a Benelli shotgun to a muzzleloader in a shootout for accuracy, distance, and ammo comparasion, but overall the muzzleloader gets further range due to the higher velocity and shoots somewhat tighter groups

From http://www.americanhunter.org/articles/shotgun-or-muzzleloader/ on 08/29/2012

Shotgun or Muzzleloader?

The choices hunters face when hunting whitetails where rifles are not an option can be confounding.

By Bryce M. Towsley, Field Editor



It’s a choice every hunter dreads, yet still hopes he will encounter someday.

I had been watching a huge buck for two days in a row. His antlers were an unusually bright white and so big he looked like something out of a Dr. Seuss book.

I had seen him twice the morning before; both times he was out of range. This morning, as the sun lit up south-central Iowa, he was feeding out in a bean field 360 yards from my stand, much too far for my firearm. Within a few minutes of light’s arrival, he drifted off into the woods. But, now there was another buck in the cornfield to my right, in range and coming closer. He was big, not a match for the white-horned buck, but big.

He was also available.

So far it had not been my best year of deer hunting. I tried, but it seemed like the world was aligned against me. A couple of early hunts were just unmitigated disasters and ended with no shots fired. My home state, Vermont, had experienced one of the snowiest winters on record and the winter kill was worse than anybody imagined. It was like an alien spaceship had run a giant vacuum cleaner around the woods and sucked up most of the deer. There were very few tracks and droppings and the mast crop lay rotting and uneaten on the ground. Still, I managed to locate the biggest buck I have seen in 45 years of hunting in Vermont. He came from a direction I didn’t expect and I had to climb a few feet up a steep bank and poke my rifle through some brush and over a blowdown. It was an amateur mistake, one I should never have made; my scope cleared the blowdown while my bullet did not. It clipped the top of the log and sailed off to that place where misbehaving bullets go to die.

That shot still keeps me up at night.

So here I was, late in the year and venison-free. I was hunting with my good friend Mike Mattly, who is the PR director for Pradco, on his farm in Iowa. Faithful readers may remember “The Bully Buck” I wrote about in American Hunter a couple years ago. I shot him in the last hours of the last day in the most brutal cold and wind I have ever experienced while deer hunting. I could see the hay bale I used to block the wind that day, just 50 yards from my current stand. I shot another very nice 9-point buck less than 200 yards from here a few years before that. His photo and story also graced these pages. This ground had been generous to me but I wondered if it was trying to send a message.

I turned to look again at the buck feeding in my direction. As the morning light grew stronger, I was beginning to see more detail as he moved through the brown, standing corn that filled the steep hillside and his dark antlers appeared to grow larger. I watched him and thought about that white-horned giant. Then I said out loud, “Go away before I shoot you!”

But not loud enough for him to hear. I am not completely insane. Still, as if he heard, he disappeared for a while and I breathed a sigh of relief. The irony of experiencing relief when a world-class buck walks off didn’t occur to me until later.

Well, perhaps irony is not as good a word as stupidity, particularly considering the tough year I was having.

When he reappeared the light was much better and he had grown considerably larger antlers. Must’ve been the corn diet.

Through the clear lenses of my Swarovski binocular I could see that he was a true 12-point buck. While the front point on each side was broken off, the bases remained. In all my years of hunting whitetails just about every place they live, and in shooting what is probably far more than my fair share, I had never shot a true 12-point, main-frame, whitetail buck. I have lots of 10s with an extra couple of points, but a clean, typical 12-point has eluded me and I was a bit obsessed with finding one. Of course the deer hunting gods exposed their usual cruelty with the broken tines, but I could live with that.

I made a decision: This was the buck I truly wanted. I took my eyes off him for a moment to reach behind me for my gun and when I looked back he had his head down feeding in the cornfield about 75 yards away. Just before the final slack came out of the trigger I realized something was wrong, so I waited. When he picked up his head, the buck morphed into a huge doe.

Twenty minutes ago I was telling him to run away, now I was trying not to lose my breakfast out the blind’s window. The disappointment turned me numb. But, over the years of hunting I have learned that when you are not sure what to do, it’s best to do nothing. So I waited and watched.

Ten minutes later a cornstalk shook a little, even though there was no wind. I focused the binoc and could see an antler tine tapping it as the buck struggled with a cob he had pinned with his front feet. It took about three eons of waiting, but finally he abandoned that ear and moved into an open row. When his shoulder was covered by the crosshairs, I finished my interrupted date with the trigger.

In a lot of places deer hunters now have the choice I faced on this hunt. No, not the choice to shoot the really big buck in front of me or hold out for the really, really big buck that may or may not show up later, but the dilemma of using a shotgun or muzzleloader.

In all the years I have hunted in south-central Iowa, this buck was a game-changer. Until then I had shot all my deer there with a muzzleloader. The wide 12-point fell to a Benelli and the new Federal Trophy Copper 12-gauge slug. In fact, I was using engineering samples from Federal and it was one of the first deer ever taken with that new slug.

Which Gun?
So, how do you choose between a shotgun or muzzleloader? Which is the best option? There are pros and cons to each. The most obvious: A shotgun carries more than one shot so it’s very fast on the reload. In fact, if you’re using a Benelli Super Black Eagle semi-auto like I was, the gun will be ready for the next shot in about .15 second. I have gotten pretty good at reloading a muzzleloader over the years, but I am not that fast.

Compared to a muzzleloader, a shotgun does not have to be cleaned every time you shoot it or risk corrosion destroying the firearm. That’s a big plus for anybody but a masochist with a gun-cleaning fetish. Shotguns are much more reliable in wet weather than a muzzleloader. If you have not experienced the frustration and rage of a muzzleloader failing to fire at a deer while hunting in the rain, well then I’ll wager you have not hunted with them much. Trust me, it will happen, sooner or later it gets everybody.

Accuracy—I picked at random 30, three-shot, 100-yard groups from slugs and slug guns I have tested for the NRA over the past few years. I included all the popular, top-of-the-line, 12-gauge sabot slugs and several different shotguns. I came up with an average 100-yard, three-shot group size of 2.54 inches.

I looked at an equal number of three-shot, 100-yard muzzleloader groups with several rifles. These included a multitude of different rifles, bullets, propellants and propellant charges. The average for those groups is 2.24 inches. With a difference of only .3 inch that’s pretty much a dead heat. To be honest I was surprised. I thought the muzzleloader would kick the shotgun’s butt in accuracy, but the numbers don’t lie.

Of course, a shooter can choose an accurate firearm and then experiment with different loads or ammo until he finds the one that is the most accurate and probably cut those numbers significantly. But that would tell us nothing. This is a relatively large sample picked at random and it says the muzzleloader has a slight advantage in accuracy, but very slight.

Shotgun slugs have changed and evolved over the past few decades so that the modern sabot slug is now very similar to the modern sabot muzzleloader bullet. The new Federal 300-grain Trophy Copper shotgun slug is an expanding, solid copper bullet with a polymer tip and represents the leading edge of slug technology. Jessica Stevens at Barnes Bullets tells me that their bestselling muzzleloader bullet is the 250-grain Spitfire T-EZ. So, let’s look at the external and terminal ballistics of these two for comparison.

Velocity—The 3-inch version of the Trophy Copper slug has a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2000 fps. With three 50-grain Pyrodex pellets the Barnes 250-grain bullet has an MV of 2197 fps. The slug has 1451 fps remaining at 150 yards and 1305 fps at 200 yards. The muzzleloader, which started with almost 200 fps more than the slug, has 1628 fps remaining at 150 yards and 1467 fps at 200 yards. Slight advantage for the muzzleloader.

Bullet Path—With a 100-yard zero the slug is 3.93 inches below the line of sight at 150 yards and 11.99 inches low at 200 yards. The muzzleloader bullet fares a little better. It’s 3.02 inches below the line of sight at 150 and 9.33 at 200 yards. So, in bullet path, the muzzleloader retains a very slight edge over the slug gun. This is due primarily to the higher velocities.

Energy—The slug has 2,665 ft.-lbs. at the muzzle; 1,744 ft.-lbs. at 100 yards; 1,404 at 150 yards; and 1,135 at 200 yards. The muzzleloader has 2,680 ft.-lbs. at the muzzle; 1,806 ft.-lbs. at 100 yards; 1,472 at 150 yards; and 1,195 at 200 yards. While both retain enough energy to reliably kill a whitetail out to 200 yards, the muzzleloader does have a very slight advantage in energy over the slug—again due to the higher velocities, as energy is tied exponentially to velocity.

Shotgun or Muzzleloader? (Page 2)

The choices hunters face when hunting whitetails where rifles are not an option can be confounding.

By Bryce M. Towsley, Field Editor


Study External Ballistics

Thanks to external ballistics, the muzzleloader gains a slight edge over the shotgun, but much less than most hunters believe.

Once we go past 200 yards with either of these modern firearms, things start changing very fast. The acceleration of gravity causes the bullet to drop faster and faster as the range increases. The drop below the line of sight for the first 200 yards is more than doubled in the next 50 yards. In other words, relative to line of sight, the bullets drop more from 200 to 250 yards than they did from zero to 200 yards. It just gets worse from there. At 300 yards, the drop is nearly four times as much as it was at 200 yards. Also, by 250 yards both bullets have fallen below the 1,000 ft.-lb. threshold that conventional wisdom holds is the minimum for whitetail deer.

The bottom line is ballistics don’t lie, and they state that for any ethical hunter, 200 yards is about the limit of performance for a modern slug gun or modern muzzleloader. I know that’s not what a lot of hunters believe or have been told, but the facts are the facts. Consistently putting a bullet in the kill zone on a whitetail with either of these guns past 200 yards is going to exceed the abilities of the vast majority of hunters. Once we get a little beyond that, it will exceed the limits of the guns.

The rate of bullet drop is rising exponentially so that even a minor error in range calculation can be critical. The farther the distance to the target, the faster the bullet is dropping so the problem is compounded with every yard of distance added.

Say we have a 6-inch kill zone, which is typical for shooting deer. That means 3 inches in any direction can put you out of the zone. Three inches is how much the shotgun slug drops between 250 and 259 yards. (The muzzleloader is a little better; it takes 18 additional yards past 250 to drop 3 more inches—again, due to the extra velocity from the three-pellet load and lighter bullet.)

So with the shotgun a miscalculation of less than 10 yards can cause you to wound or miss, even if everything else is perfect. But, perfection is impossible. By now the accuracy potential of the guns is starting to grow so large that under field conditions it will be mathematically impossible to ensure a kill zone hit 100 percent of the time. The 2.54-inch group size at 100 yards increases to 6.35 inches at 250 yards, larger than the kill zone. Discounting wind and human error, a 10-yard miscalculation and the simple accuracy of the gun can put the impact off more than 7 inches.

With a mild 10 mph wind the slug has drifted more than 21 inches at 250 yards. A 15 mph wind, just 5 mph more, adds 10.6 inches to that. Can you judge the wind with that kind of precision? I know I can’t. Is it 10 mph or 15 mph? Is it a perfect 90-degree angle or is it more like 45 degrees? Is the wind the same velocity and direction all the way to the target?

If the bullet drifts 32 inches at 90 degrees, how much will it drift if the wind is at 45 degrees? (The answer is 15.2 inches, but I had to go to a computer to figure that out.) So, do you hold 21 inches to the wind or 32 inches or 15 inches? Or maybe you are just trying to shoot too far in this wind?

Even without the wind, it all just falls apart past 200 yards. Use your hunting skill; get closer. That’s the concept of a shotgun or muzzleloader anyway.

Terminal ballistics—what happens after the bullet hits the deer—are much tougher to evaluate. The slug measures .500 inch, which is slightly larger than a muzzleloader bullet at .451 inch, which means the slug has a slightly larger frontal diameter. With a non-expanding bullet the difference might matter. But, they are both expanding bullets. That means the bullet design and impact velocity will control the final frontal diameter. They both expand to a large diameter. This is important for two reasons. One is that with the relatively low velocity of a muzzleloader or shotgun the bullets rely on penetration and frontal diameter to cause tissue damage. The bullet must have enough energy stored to push it through the game in its expanded form. I have shot a lot of deer with monolithic, expanding slugs and muzzleloader bullets. It is rare to recover either from a dead deer. When I do, it is usually from a finishing shot when the deer is down or with an end-to-end frontal shot. With most broadside shots the bullet will exit. So, I can’t see that there is an advantage one way or the other with either of these in deer hunting. Of course, we are looking at only a small representation of the types of muzzleloader bullets or slugs that are on the market. A lead-core, thin-jacket bullet or slug might not exit. However, a total comparison of the terminal ballistics is for another article. For now, I think it’s safe to say that with similar style projectiles, the two are just about dead even for terminal ballistics while hunting whitetails.

I had thought that a clear winner would emerge here, but that’s not the case. I think it boils down to your hunting style, the firearms that interest you most and which one you trust. As a gun guy who loves to experiment, I see that as a half-full glass. On my hunt I can pick a shotgun or muzzleloader with the full confidence that either one is well suited for hunting big whitetail bucks.

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#3075823 - 12/12/12 12:43 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: recurve60#]
Outdoor Enthusiast
6 Point


Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 973
Loc: Carthage, TN

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 Originally Posted By: recurve60#
Do you have stock in or sell said guns you are promoting?

Just sayin...brand new member and show up with surveys to help your your cause.


^^I am curious too.

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#3075846 - 12/12/12 12:53 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Outdoor Enthusiast]
strutandrut
Non-Typical


Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 29013
Loc: signal mountain

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So, what do y'all think about the reintroduction of Elk?

_________________________
Any day above ground is a good day.

Why do I carry a gun? Because cops weigh too much to carry and are difficult to conceal.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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#3075853 - 12/12/12 12:56 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Outdoor Enthusiast]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Outdoor Enthusiast
 Originally Posted By: recurve60#
Do you have stock in or sell said guns you are promoting?

Just sayin...brand new member and show up with surveys to help your your cause.


^^I am curious too.
No, the only gun stock I own is Ruger and their firearms would not qualify, with maybe the exception of the Ruger single shot, but at near $1,000 each compared to your $300.00 handi-rifle, it seems like a no-brainier on that choice.

Why are the old dogs on here so up on new members asking questions or posting?

My premise was explained quite thoroughly but I will recap for those who have not read the entire thread. I am a hunter, I love to hunt and love the outdoors. I work a lot just like 99% of everyone else on here, and when I get the random change to go hunting I would like to carry a weapon that would provide me the best chance of acquiring the game I am pursuing. I also think about other hunters needs and challenges, ways to get more people into hunting and keeping hunters in the game, because let's face it, the way things are going now, hunting is dying out in some ways.

I benefit in no way in the allowance of single shot rifles, shotguns and handguns other than it gives additional choices for hunters to enjoy a time honored past time.

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#3075855 - 12/12/12 12:57 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: strutandrut]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

Offline
 Originally Posted By: strutandrut
So, what do y'all think about the reintroduction of Elk?



hope they thrive and spread

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#3075861 - 12/12/12 12:58 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

Offline
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
 Originally Posted By: Outdoor Enthusiast
 Originally Posted By: recurve60#
Do you have stock in or sell said guns you are promoting?

Just sayin...brand new member and show up with surveys to help your your cause.


^^I am curious too.
No, the only gun stock I own is Ruger and their firearms would not qualify, with maybe the exception of the Ruger single shot, but at near $1,000 each compared to your $300.00 handi-rifle, it seems like a no-brainier on that choice.

Why are the old dogs on here so up on new members asking questions or posting?

My premise was explained quite thoroughly but I will recap for those who have not read the entire thread. I am a hunter, I love to hunt and love the outdoors. I work a lot just like 99% of everyone else on here, and when I get the random change to go hunting I would like to carry a weapon that would provide me the best chance of acquiring the game I am pursuing. I also think about other hunters needs and challenges, ways to get more people into hunting and keeping hunters in the game, because let's face it, the way things are going now, hunting is dying out in some ways.

I benefit in no way in the allowance of single shot rifles, shotguns and handguns other than it gives additional choices for hunters to enjoy a time honored past time.
and the fact that I am actually considering other hunters opinions before presenting this to the TWRA commission in Feb.

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#3076012 - 12/12/12 02:31 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2835
Loc: Lawrence Co.

content Online
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
and the fact that I am actually considering other hunters opinions before presenting this to the TWRA commission in Feb.

When and where is this going to take place? I might have to make a trip to see your little Presentation on this matter.
_________________________
Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

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#3076019 - 12/12/12 02:37 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2835
Loc: Lawrence Co.

content Online
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
I would like to carry a weapon that would provide me the best chance of acquiring the game I am pursuing. I also think about other hunters needs and challenges, ways to get more people into hunting and keeping hunters in the game, because let's face it, the way things are going now, hunting is dying out in some ways.

Then why not just open rifle season the first Saturday of November and do away with ML season all together?
_________________________
Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

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