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#3075448 - 12/12/12 07:59 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wes Parrish]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: stik
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1

I have NEVER had a standing still second shot when using a center fire rifle.

x 2

not only did the boy get a standing 2nd shot at the buck he killed last year, he also got a 3rd. each was 20 yds closer than the last. the deer came CLOSER!!! i have had about equal results with m/l and centerfire as far as deer reactions.

My experiences have been, most of the time, it's not the sound of the shot that spooks the deer, but rather something like the sound or sight of the hunter after the shot (working the bolt action, etc.). Can't say I've seen any difference in the deer's reaction to the sound of a muzzleloader vs. a centerfire, and have often had both hit deer and other deer head my direction after I shot, providing many 2nd opportunities at a non-moving deer only seconds after the initial shot.

Not too long ago, I killed 3 mature does with a .300 Weatherby over a period of about 5 minutes, all between about 50 and 120 yards distance, and all being from the same group of 5 deer, only the two young ones surviving. With exception to the one that simply dropped upon being hit, the others initially ran about 30 yards, then stopped, seemingly wondering why the oldest doe wasn't moving. They all started walking back toward the downed doe. That's when I dropped #2 about 10 yards from #1. They take off running again, but stop again. #3 is dropped at about 120 yards. I couldn't have done this with a muzzleloader because they would have seen me reloading.

I'd say a close gunshot will commonly "startle" a deer, but won't necessarily "spook" them into running off. Of course, a hit deer is reacting to being shot, and will commonly take off running, sometimes with the other deer running with it simply because they're following the lead of what is typically the oldest deer in the group.

But if you'll stay still & quiet, like you're still hunting, after you shoot, you'll be surprised how many deer are not spooked by the sound of the shot.
it seems like also that it depends on the terrain that you fire the shot towards...i have shot at deer in a field and had other deer run the opposite way, and the field had rolling inclines in it, whereas I have shot at deer on hillsides in woods, where the hollow acts like a bowl almost and the sound stays contained in that area versus echoing continuous as it does on a hill top or across a field, and the deer came towards me.

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#3075459 - 12/12/12 08:08 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: GOODWIN]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: GOODWIN
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W

This has been an interesting discussion but rather than focusing on the speed of reloading a ML vs. single shot cartridge gun, I think it might be interesting to consider how far the current ML season has strayed from its original intent due to the use of scopes.

And I think that the use of a scope is much more of an advantage in killing a deer than any perceived gain a single shot cartridge gun would have over a ML because of the cartridge gun's faster reloading. As we all know, much deer movement is in low light and there is no comparison in performance under those conditions between the iron sights of the original ML’s and a modern scope that practically 100% of ML's carry nowadays. With iron sights you lose those valuable minutes of deer movement at the beginning and end of each day. You simply can’t see well enough to shoot whereas if you have a good scope you can use every minute of legal light. Doesn’t that conflict with giving users of “Primitive Weapons” extra time in the woods because they are using a weapon that is so ineffective? I sure wouldn’t trade my inline with a Leupold 3x9 for a true Hawken rifle with iron sights to hunt with. \:\)

I think if single shot rifles were allowed during ML season with certain restrictions such as requiring an exposed hammer and chambered for cartridges prior to some date….maybe 1890???.....it would change hardly anything as far as deer numbers harvested. The Sharps rifle company would sell a few more guns but not many people would be willing to spend that kind of money – only a few of us real gun nuts – modern inline ML’s would still dominate the woods during ML season and everybody would be happy.

(Oh and in my experience, most of the time, deer run off when you shoot and miss so neither of these type rifles can be reloaded fast enough to give a hunter a second shot. Again, MOST of the time. \:\) I know that every now and then a deer just stands there.)
This is my point and proposal in a nutshell, and the way Mississippi originally designed theirs


Now residing in MS, I can tell you that MZ's would not dominate the woods. 9 out of 10 people hunting during the "primitive" season here are shooting breech-loading rifles with the most common being 45/70, 35 whelen, and 444 marlin. The main reason I believe to be the ease of use with less up keep and cleaning. It's also a lot easier to obtain "longe-range" accuracy with these cartridges (150-200yds) than a MZ. Most are shooting the Hornady Leverevolution ammo. And there is no argument that could convince me that it is "almost" as fast reloading a MZ as a single shot rifle. Seconds count when trying to get off a second shot on a deer. Gun companies have obviously loved this new regulation. I myself choose to still shoot the smoke-pole because I love the tradition of the TN muzzleloader season and I don't want to cough up the coin for a new gun. I vote to keep the TN season the way it is if my out-of-state vote counts for anything.
A lot of it does have to do with cleaning, and the ease of loading, but lets all be honest here...other than those who are using the traditional muzzleloaders like flintlocks or percussion, who uses an inline to hold onto tradition? We use them because their ignition is more reliable, they shoot better, are able to be scoped easier, shoot more powerful loads, and with the inline Savage like I have, you can even shoot smokeless powder. So in essence compared to other single shots, all that is missing is the brass case.

That is my whole justification of this proposal. Why keep the traditional muzzleloader season when non-traditional in-lines dominate the woods, and your essentially shooting a "caseless" centerfire rifle... Hence adding single shot shotguns and rifles of .35 caliber or larger won't make much difference.

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#3075463 - 12/12/12 08:11 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
Rubberduck270
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Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2563
Loc: Lawrence Co.

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It's never been Traditional Muzzleloader season. Just Muzzleloader season. Adding single shot rifles to the mix greatly increases reloading time. So if you want to go to centerfire cartridges we might as well just open rifle season the first Saturday of November and be done with it.
_________________________
Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

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#3075469 - 12/12/12 08:22 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64248
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
It's never been Traditional Muzzleloader season. Just Muzzleloader season. Adding single shot rifles to the mix greatly increases reloading time. So if you want to go to centerfire cartridges we might as well just open rifle season the first Saturday of November and be done with it.


Agreed. In fact, I like that idea! ;\)
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3075476 - 12/12/12 08:26 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: BSK]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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survey results so far as of 8:27AM CST on 12/12/12:

keep it the way it is: 51%

add use of shotguns with muzzleloaders: 5%

add use of handguns and shotguns with muzzleloaders: 5%

add use of single shot rifles, handguns and shotguns with muzzleloaders 35%

make current muzzleloader season primitive muzzleloaders only and move in-lines to modern gun 2%

create a January primitive season 2%

keep the answers coming as I am going to keep the survey up thru the second week of January to make it as fair and accurate as possible before I do my presentation. I think I will include some data on the all the people who are advocating the any weapon season, and this may be a middle ground that is fair to our bow hunters and will not effect the remainder of the season.

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#3075478 - 12/12/12 08:30 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2563
Loc: Lawrence Co.

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
adding single shot shotguns and rifles of .35 caliber or larger won't make much difference.

Do you have any idea how powerful a 35 Whelen is? If we'd of had single shots in 35 Whelen in the Civil War it would have lasted all of 45 mins. And I guarantee we'd have a different President right now
_________________________
Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

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#3075518 - 12/12/12 09:00 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
adding single shot shotguns and rifles of .35 caliber or larger won't make much difference.

Do you have any idea how powerful a 35 Whelen is? If we'd of had single shots in 35 Whelen in the Civil War it would have lasted all of 45 mins. And I guarantee we'd have a different President right now
yes, I know about the 35 Whelen, how it was developed by Col. Townsend Whelen as a wildcat, the parent cartridge is a 30-06 case, etc, etc... I am a gun nut, have been shooting since I was 8 and hunting since I was 10, and buy guns every chance I get, and I love to study the ballistics, the application, everything about different guns and cartridges.

That being said, I would not propose going as far as what Louisiana and Mississippi did, as that does add a distinct advantage over a smokepole, but other than a minimal edge on reloading, adding single shot shotguns with slugs, which are not ballistically superior to modern inline loads, nor adding your popular handgun cartridges, which are not ballistically superior to modern inline loads, or the cartridges that were originally black powder and now smokeless, as they are downloaded to allow them to be fired in older firearms. Here is a list of common available ones that would be allowed under my proposal:

38-40
38-55
44-40
45 Colt
45-70

One way to address the issue of using the higher powered cartridges is require them to be straight walled "brush gun" calibers or originally created as a black powder cartridge. That is why I posted this on here in the first place is to get feedback, and/or tweaks.

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#3075530 - 12/12/12 09:08 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
Outdoor Enthusiast
6 Point


Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 961
Loc: Carthage, TN

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
survey results so far as of 8:27AM CST on 12/12/12:

keep it the way it is: 51%

add use of shotguns with muzzleloaders: 5%

add use of handguns and shotguns with muzzleloaders: 5%

add use of single shot rifles, handguns and shotguns with muzzleloaders 35%

make current muzzleloader season primitive muzzleloaders only and move in-lines to modern gun 2%

create a January primitive season 2%

keep the answers coming as I am going to keep the survey up thru the second week of January to make it as fair and accurate as possible before I do my presentation. I think I will include some data on the all the people who are advocating the any weapon season, and this may be a middle ground that is fair to our bow hunters and will not effect the remainder of the season.


I don't see the option for "Make MZ season A/M/R". I bet you might find quite a few in support of opening all weapons the first Saturday in November.

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#3075606 - 12/12/12 09:57 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 18687
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
. . . . . if you want to go to centerfire cartridges we might as well just open rifle season the first Saturday of November and be done with it.

I agree, although not saying I want to make any weapon changes at all. But when & if we do, it shouldn't be done in a manner where most existing deer hunters would have to purchase a new weapon to participate.

Just looking from a large & broad perspective, should there be any weapon changes with our TN muzzleloading season, it probably should be to change it from "muzzleloader" to "shotgun/muzzleloader" season. This would cater more to the hunters than the special interests.

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#3075662 - 12/12/12 10:42 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wes Parrish]
chiggerbit
Spike


Registered: 09/16/11
Posts: 72
Loc: Lebanon, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
...Just looking from a large & broad perspective, should there be any weapon changes with our TN muzzleloading season, it probably should be to change it from "muzzleloader" to "shotgun/muzzleloader" season. This would cater more to the hunters than the special interests.


Bad idea as well in my humble opinion. Slugs and shotguns is rather expensive at it's best, and relatively inaccurate (by modern standards) and flinch-encouraging at it's worst.

Also, regarding hunting impact, lots of chasing goes on during the TN MUZZLELOADER season, and add shotguns to the mix and you're gonna have folks taking a LOT more shots.... and multiple shots at that. I started deer hunting in southern Illinois, and the morning of the shotgun opener sounded like a dove shoot had commenced. I don't want that here. I don't want more wounded deer in the woods either, and yes, there will be.

But yes, I love muzzleloaders for deer hunting. They're capable of incredible accuracy, and I think they encourage hunters to wait for high-percentage, responsible and ethical shots. So if you disregard special interests and all the arguments for a minute, it just makes sense that muzzleloading season is good prep for the following rifle season. It's kind of hard to take accuracy for granted and take low-percentage shots when you only have one.

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