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#3074884 - 12/11/12 06:52 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: BSK]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 3522
Loc: Franklin County

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
You are right that the season was never called a "Primitive Weapon" season but the fact that most ML's at that time were replicas of the originals was the justification used to give ML hunters extra time to hunt without competing with guys using 30-06's, 270's etc.


The original justification for an MZ season had nothing to do with "competition" with other types of weapons. The season was created because virtually no one was going to hunt it! It was looked upon as a season that would produce few if any harvests. In essence, it was all about how much impact it would have (virtually none) on the state's project of restoring the deer herds. The same is true of bow season. It was created because, at the time, no one bow hunted. They could allow a month of bow season because an insignificant number of deer would be harvested.

During restoration, season lengths and dates were always about maximizing hunting opportunity while doing no harm to the deer population.


I disagree with you there. I think it definitely WAS the lesser effective killing ability of traditional ML's compared to modern rifles that justified an exclusive season for ML carrying hunters to hunt early and exclusive of "rifle" season. You may be right though in that a number of people involved in finalizing and approving a ML season did so thinking that nobody would hunt with them anyway. Sort of like a blow gun season, huh?

Ahhh, i could really care less if it changes or stays the same. I'll hunt with what is legal once November rolls around and you couldn't PAY me to hunt earlier than that. \:\)

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#3074930 - 12/11/12 07:12 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
smyrnagc
6 Point


Registered: 12/26/10
Posts: 946
Loc: Middle Tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
I would like all of you to re-visit the survey site, as after looking at the responses here on this post, I have modified the answer selections after recording the data from the previous answers. Please take time to retake the survey.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Z6R68PS



Would you post the results of the survey so far for us to see where this is trending?
_________________________
Modern Muzzleloader
Dedicated to the modern muzzleloading hunting enthusiast.
http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com

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#3075151 - 12/11/12 09:21 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wes Parrish]
recurve60#
4 Point


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 399
Loc: Rock Island

Offline
contendershooter...since you say ml's are now the same as the weapons you want to see legal why don't you just use one of said muzzleloaders and quit stirring the pot?

What's the point?
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#3075157 - 12/11/12 09:25 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: recurve60#]
recurve60#
4 Point


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 399
Loc: Rock Island

Offline
Do you have stock in or sell said guns you are promoting?

Just sayin...brand new member and show up with surveys to help your your cause.
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#3075162 - 12/11/12 09:30 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: easy45]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10574
Loc: Warren Co

Offline
I think the fast reload advantage of the break action single shots is offset by the deer's reaction to the sound of a center fire.

I have no explanation for this but I have had NUMEROUS situations where I have shot a deer out of a group with a mz and the rest of the deer startled and ran 5-10 yds and then stopped and milled around, giving me plenty of time to reload and shoot a second, and if I wanted a third. The sound frequency of a mz must be closer to thunder is the only guess I have.

I have NEVER had a standing still second shot when using a center fire rifle.
_________________________
If you can't trust people with freedom, how can you trust them with power ?




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#3075261 - 12/12/12 12:00 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: fishboy1]
stik
"Popcorn"
18 Point


Registered: 03/12/99
Posts: 21393
Loc: lenoir city,tn

Offline
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1



I have NEVER had a standing still second shot when using a center fire rifle.


not only did the boy get a standing 2nd shot at the buck he killed last year, he also got a 3rd. each was 20 yds closer than the last. the deer came CLOSER!!! i have had about equal results with m/l and centerfire as far as deer reactions.
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#3075426 - 12/12/12 07:41 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: stik]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19470
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: stik
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1

I have NEVER had a standing still second shot when using a center fire rifle.

x 2

not only did the boy get a standing 2nd shot at the buck he killed last year, he also got a 3rd. each was 20 yds closer than the last. the deer came CLOSER!!! i have had about equal results with m/l and centerfire as far as deer reactions.

My experiences have been, most of the time, it's not the sound of the shot that spooks the deer, but rather something like the sound or sight of the hunter after the shot (working the bolt action, etc.). Can't say I've seen any difference in the deer's reaction to the sound of a muzzleloader vs. a centerfire, and have often had both hit deer and other deer head my direction after I shot, providing many 2nd opportunities at a non-moving deer only seconds after the initial shot.

Not too long ago, I killed 3 mature does with a .300 Weatherby over a period of about 5 minutes, all between about 50 and 120 yards distance, and all being from the same group of 5 deer, only the two young ones surviving. With exception to the one that simply dropped upon being hit, the others initially ran about 30 yards, then stopped, seemingly wondering why the oldest doe wasn't moving. They all started walking back toward the downed doe. That's when I dropped #2 about 10 yards from #1. They take off running again, but stop again. #3 is dropped at about 120 yards. I couldn't have done this with a muzzleloader because they would have seen me reloading.

I'd say a close gunshot will commonly "startle" a deer, but won't necessarily "spook" them into running off. Of course, a hit deer is reacting to being shot, and will commonly take off running, sometimes with the other deer running with it simply because they're following the lead of what is typically the oldest deer in the group.

But if you'll stay still & quiet, like you're still hunting, after you shoot, you'll be surprised how many deer are not spooked by the sound of the shot.

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#3075432 - 12/12/12 07:48 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wes Parrish]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19470
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
Because there is less movement required and less time, it will always be easier to get a 2nd deer from a group (or a 2nd shot at a missed deer) using a centerfire instead of a muzzleloader.
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#3075435 - 12/12/12 07:50 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hunter 257W]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
You are right that the season was never called a "Primitive Weapon" season but the fact that most ML's at that time were replicas of the originals was the justification used to give ML hunters extra time to hunt without competing with guys using 30-06's, 270's etc.


The original justification for an MZ season had nothing to do with "competition" with other types of weapons. The season was created because virtually no one was going to hunt it! It was looked upon as a season that would produce few if any harvests. In essence, it was all about how much impact it would have (virtually none) on the state's project of restoring the deer herds. The same is true of bow season. It was created because, at the time, no one bow hunted. They could allow a month of bow season because an insignificant number of deer would be harvested.

During restoration, season lengths and dates were always about maximizing hunting opportunity while doing no harm to the deer population.


I disagree with you there. I think it definitely WAS the lesser effective killing ability of traditional ML's compared to modern rifles that justified an exclusive season for ML carrying hunters to hunt early and exclusive of "rifle" season.


Ask some of the TWRA guys that were around at the time. The primary factor used in decisions about season length were always "How will it affect harvest totals." In essence, how many deer will be killed and will that significantly slow the deer population restoration effort? To be honest, harvest totals are still a big factor in any season/bag-limit discussion, although we are well past restoration in much of the state. Now it is about protecting what has been restored.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3075448 - 12/12/12 07:59 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wes Parrish]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: stik
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1

I have NEVER had a standing still second shot when using a center fire rifle.

x 2

not only did the boy get a standing 2nd shot at the buck he killed last year, he also got a 3rd. each was 20 yds closer than the last. the deer came CLOSER!!! i have had about equal results with m/l and centerfire as far as deer reactions.

My experiences have been, most of the time, it's not the sound of the shot that spooks the deer, but rather something like the sound or sight of the hunter after the shot (working the bolt action, etc.). Can't say I've seen any difference in the deer's reaction to the sound of a muzzleloader vs. a centerfire, and have often had both hit deer and other deer head my direction after I shot, providing many 2nd opportunities at a non-moving deer only seconds after the initial shot.

Not too long ago, I killed 3 mature does with a .300 Weatherby over a period of about 5 minutes, all between about 50 and 120 yards distance, and all being from the same group of 5 deer, only the two young ones surviving. With exception to the one that simply dropped upon being hit, the others initially ran about 30 yards, then stopped, seemingly wondering why the oldest doe wasn't moving. They all started walking back toward the downed doe. That's when I dropped #2 about 10 yards from #1. They take off running again, but stop again. #3 is dropped at about 120 yards. I couldn't have done this with a muzzleloader because they would have seen me reloading.

I'd say a close gunshot will commonly "startle" a deer, but won't necessarily "spook" them into running off. Of course, a hit deer is reacting to being shot, and will commonly take off running, sometimes with the other deer running with it simply because they're following the lead of what is typically the oldest deer in the group.

But if you'll stay still & quiet, like you're still hunting, after you shoot, you'll be surprised how many deer are not spooked by the sound of the shot.
it seems like also that it depends on the terrain that you fire the shot towards...i have shot at deer in a field and had other deer run the opposite way, and the field had rolling inclines in it, whereas I have shot at deer on hillsides in woods, where the hollow acts like a bowl almost and the sound stays contained in that area versus echoing continuous as it does on a hill top or across a field, and the deer came towards me.

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