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#3072688 - 12/10/12 02:24 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
chiggerbit
Spike


Registered: 09/16/11
Posts: 72
Loc: Lebanon, TN

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
Chiggerbit, that is your opinion, and I appreciate that, but I can tell you that I can reload a muzzleloader every bit as fast as I can my NEF partner shotgun, or my TC Contender Pistol or Rifle.


PLEASE post a youtube video of that comparison. That I gotta see.

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#3072701 - 12/10/12 02:31 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: scn]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: scn
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
It's actually not a stretch, most muzzleloaders out there are shooting 150 grains of 777, Pyrodex, or Blackhorn, smokeless powder in the case of the Savage ML-10II and with those loads and a good 250gr to 300gr sabot, you have a weapon that equals a 45/70 on steroids, is more accurate than your smooth-bore or rifled slug gun, so what's the point? I have went over this multiple times looking at numbers ballistically, and the muzzleloader has the velocity and ft-lbs advantage. Magazines have reviewed the same muzzleloader vs shotgun argument and muzzleloader came out on top the majority of the time. And as far as reload times, with these fast reload tubes you can get for muzzleloaders now, it can be done in about the same time to break open your single shot, fumble around with a new fresh shell, insert, aim and fire again. And let's not forget sabot shotgun slugs use the same 209 primers, and the same bullets that are in muzzleloader sabots


You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, after using muzzleloaders and break action firearms for over 40 years, I can tell you the reloading time between the two types is not even close. In addition, the motions needed to reload a muzzleloader make getting a second shot off at a deer extremely difficult.

So, yes, there are similarities in some of the ballistics, but totally different ball games in the hunting applications.
Here is my deal, if the season was longer than two weeks, then I would agree. I think we can all agree here the first youth hunt and muzzleloader season is the peak of TN deer hunting, and maybe the first week of rifle, then after that, especially here in middle TN its downhill from there. So for that two week period, I am simply wanting someone who doesn't feel safe around muzzleloaders, an older person who my have trouble loading them, a person who only has the money for one gun to hunt, not to mention the extra fees from licenses of more people hunting and the revenue from the ammo tax, which BTW doesn't apply to black powder and accessories, that TWRA would get. From whom I have asked at TWRA so far, they stated it would not make that big of a difference during those two weeks, as it did not make that big of a difference in Mississippi. And here me out, I am saying make single shot handguns in any .35 caliber or larger pistol cartridge legal, and your .35 caliber rifles that were "former" black powder cartridges such as the 38/40, 44/40, 45/70, etc. With Mississippi's regs, you can hunt with a 35 Remington single shot, 35 Whelen Single Shot, 350 Rem Mag, anything, and I am not proposing making it that loose.

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#3072725 - 12/10/12 02:46 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12099
Loc: Benton Co.

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
It's actually not a stretch, most muzzleloaders out there are shooting 150 grains of 777, Pyrodex, or Blackhorn, smokeless powder in the case of the Savage ML-10II and with those loads and a good 250gr to 300gr sabot, you have a weapon that equals a 45/70 on steroids, is more accurate than your smooth-bore or rifled slug gun, so what's the point? I have went over this multiple times looking at numbers ballistically, and the muzzleloader has the velocity and ft-lbs advantage. Magazines have reviewed the same muzzleloader vs shotgun argument and muzzleloader came out on top the majority of the time. And as far as reload times, with these fast reload tubes you can get for muzzleloaders now, it can be done in about the same time to break open your single shot, fumble around with a new fresh shell, insert, aim and fire again. And let's not forget sabot shotgun slugs use the same 209 primers, and the same bullets that are in muzzleloader sabots



""Magazines have reviewed the same muzzleloader vs shotgun argument and muzzleloader came out on top " "
That says it all right there. MAGAZINES and Gun makers are who will benifit. They fuel the fire for many things that have nothing to do with herd health or happy hunters.They are in it for the money.New seasons new weapons equals more money.
_________________________
Proverbs 3:27 Whenever you possibly can, do good to those who need it

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#3072743 - 12/10/12 02:58 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
megalomaniac
12 Point


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 5235
Loc: Mississippi

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my cousin pushes 400 grainers at 2300 fps outta his pistol... it's a .416-06 JDJ encore \:\)

keep ML's as primitive weapons and just move the season to the last week of Dec and first week of Jan.

Open rifle season at the current ML's timeframe (first weekend in Nov)

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#3072747 - 12/10/12 02:58 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12099
Loc: Benton Co.

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""It's actually not a stretch, most muzzleloaders out there are shooting 150 grains of 777, Pyrodex, or Blackhorn, smokeless powder in the case of the Savage ML-10II and with those loads and a good 250gr to 300gr sabot, you have a weapon that equals a 45/70 on steroids""
Here's the real deal on most M.L. are shooting 150 grains of some type of powder.That extra 50 grains is going up in smoke with most B.P. weapons. Very few moderen muzzle loaders have 28" barrels. Many are 26".You need a longer barrel to efficently burn the powder and get inproved results.AS the Deer Assasin likes to say "the Chronograph don't lie" :).I shoot a Remington Gensis for the extra 2".
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Proverbs 3:27 Whenever you possibly can, do good to those who need it

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#3072756 - 12/10/12 03:04 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: MUP]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: MUP
 Originally Posted By: strutandrut
No


And no again. Just like having the distinct different seasons myself.
you will still have that distinct season, and you can still shoot a smokepole if you so choose

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#3072760 - 12/10/12 03:05 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: megalomaniac]
Outdoor Enthusiast
8 Point


Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 1011
Loc: Carthage, TN

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 Originally Posted By: megalomaniac
my cousin pushes 400 grainers at 2300 fps outta his pistol... it's a .416-06 JDJ encore \:\)

keep ML's as primitive weapons and just move the season to the last week of Dec and first week of Jan.

Open rifle season at the current ML's timeframe (first weekend in Nov)

I like this. I want a rifle in my hands during the first and second weeks of November. Particuarly the second week on my farm.

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#3072767 - 12/10/12 03:07 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12099
Loc: Benton Co.

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I think TWRA and most the hunters I know are liking the new trend toward "Keeping it Simple".
_________________________
Proverbs 3:27 Whenever you possibly can, do good to those who need it

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#3072771 - 12/10/12 03:09 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Outdoor Enthusiast]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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moving the seasons around really belongs in the 13-14 seasons change forum, but TWRA has the seasons pretty good as they are; I would like to see deer season open the second week of September and close Dec 31st. Keep the seasons the same where bow closes, then primitive then gun. I do think the does need to go to 4 per day and the bucks down to two per year.

This year I have only seen one doe the entire year, no bucks, and I typically see two to four good bucks per year. My father-in-law is retired and hunts almost daily and has only seen a handful of does, and three bucks, one of which he harvested. The past two years, deer season has been really strange. Weather maybe?

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#3072778 - 12/10/12 03:11 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 3007
Loc: Lawrence Co.

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
So for that two week period, I am simply wanting someone who doesn't feel safe around muzzleloaders, an older person who my have trouble loading them, a person who only has the money for one gun to hunt

So if you only have the money to hunt with one gun, you want this person to go out and buy another gun to use in the "primitive" season? 45-70s and the majority of the other cartridges you listed aren't a dime a dozen in TN. You can find a ML alot easier than you can a 45-70 in my neck of the woods.

 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
And here me out, I am saying make single shot handguns in any .35 caliber or larger pistol cartridge legal, and your .35 caliber rifles that were "former" black powder cartridges such as the 38/40, 44/40, 45/70

And again, it's been years since I've laid eyes on a 44-40. My local Wal-Mart don't stock ammo for any of the 3 cartridges you just listed.

If a person doesn't feel comfortable shooting a ML how do they feel comfortable shooting a centerfire rifle? I can see what goes into the barrel of my ML when I load it. Do you know exactly how much and what type of powder is in each loaded round you buy? Nope.

And if you don't have the strength to reload a ML how do you have the strength to fire a regular rifle? ML's can be loaded at home by someone with the ability to load it then used in the field by another person that may not have the ability. And if you can't physically load a ML, then you really don't need to be hunting alone.
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Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

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