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#3074402 - 12/11/12 01:40 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: stik]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 2903
Loc: Franklin County

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 Originally Posted By: stik
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
Let me also add this note...inline muzzleloaders are a technological advantage in that weapon line, but they ARE NOT primitive.




inline rifles were around in the 1700's. tennessee's MUZZLELOADER season has NEVER been a primitive weapon season but a MUZZLELOADER season.


But the original in-line ML's weren't even close in performance to todays guns using 209 primers, preformed powder pellets and sabots to fire sub-caliber jacketed bullets with plastic aerodynamic tips. You are right that the season was never called a "Primitive Weapon" season but the fact that most ML's at that time were replicas of the originals was the justification used to give ML hunters extra time to hunt without competing with guys using 30-06's, 270's etc.

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#3074466 - 12/11/12 02:16 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hunter 257W]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64800
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
You are right that the season was never called a "Primitive Weapon" season but the fact that most ML's at that time were replicas of the originals was the justification used to give ML hunters extra time to hunt without competing with guys using 30-06's, 270's etc.


The original justification for an MZ season had nothing to do with "competition" with other types of weapons. The season was created because virtually no one was going to hunt it! It was looked upon as a season that would produce few if any harvests. In essence, it was all about how much impact it would have (virtually none) on the state's project of restoring the deer herds. The same is true of bow season. It was created because, at the time, no one bow hunted. They could allow a month of bow season because an insignificant number of deer would be harvested.

During restoration, season lengths and dates were always about maximizing hunting opportunity while doing no harm to the deer population.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3074547 - 12/11/12 03:06 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: BSK]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
You are right that the season was never called a "Primitive Weapon" season but the fact that most ML's at that time were replicas of the originals was the justification used to give ML hunters extra time to hunt without competing with guys using 30-06's, 270's etc.


The original justification for an MZ season had nothing to do with "competition" with other types of weapons. The season was created because virtually no one was going to hunt it! It was looked upon as a season that would produce few if any harvests. In essence, it was all about how much impact it would have (virtually none) on the state's project of restoring the deer herds. The same is true of bow season. It was created because, at the time, no one bow hunted. They could allow a month of bow season because an insignificant number of deer would be harvested.

During restoration, season lengths and dates were always about maximizing hunting opportunity while doing no harm to the deer population.
That's fine, if that was the original intent. Louisiana and Mississipppi never probably originally intended to allow cartridge fired rifles during muzzleloader and change it to a primitive season. So that is why this discussion is good, to see what people would like.

I would say I would be much more in approval for allowing the proposed weapons versus an all weapons season.

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#3074552 - 12/11/12 03:10 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hunter 257W]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
 Originally Posted By: stik
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
Let me also add this note...inline muzzleloaders are a technological advantage in that weapon line, but they ARE NOT primitive.




inline rifles were around in the 1700's. tennessee's MUZZLELOADER season has NEVER been a primitive weapon season but a MUZZLELOADER season.


But the original in-line ML's weren't even close in performance to todays guns using 209 primers, preformed powder pellets and sabots to fire sub-caliber jacketed bullets with plastic aerodynamic tips. You are right that the season was never called a "Primitive Weapon" season but the fact that most ML's at that time were replicas of the originals was the justification used to give ML hunters extra time to hunt without competing with guys using 30-06's, 270's etc.
exactly my point...i remember when the 45 caliber muzzleloaders surfaced in popularity during the 777 magnum pellet craze and you seen cabela's, bass pro and other catalogs with 2600-2800fps muzzle velocity advertisements

today's muzzleloaders are nothing compared to the well advanced side hammer jobs from just 15 years ago. I had a T/C White Mountain Carbine with the musket cap conversion that was top notch at the time, and with a 4x12 power scope mounted it would keep three TC 370gr maxi balls pushed by 90gr of FFg in around 3-4" at 100 yards. Todays muzzleloaders could put three rounds inside that pattern and then some.

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#3074554 - 12/11/12 03:11 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hunter 257W]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W

This has been an interesting discussion but rather than focusing on the speed of reloading a ML vs. single shot cartridge gun, I think it might be interesting to consider how far the current ML season has strayed from its original intent due to the use of scopes.

And I think that the use of a scope is much more of an advantage in killing a deer than any perceived gain a single shot cartridge gun would have over a ML because of the cartridge gun's faster reloading. As we all know, much deer movement is in low light and there is no comparison in performance under those conditions between the iron sights of the original ML’s and a modern scope that practically 100% of ML's carry nowadays. With iron sights you lose those valuable minutes of deer movement at the beginning and end of each day. You simply can’t see well enough to shoot whereas if you have a good scope you can use every minute of legal light. Doesn’t that conflict with giving users of “Primitive Weapons” extra time in the woods because they are using a weapon that is so ineffective? I sure wouldn’t trade my inline with a Leupold 3x9 for a true Hawken rifle with iron sights to hunt with. \:\)

I think if single shot rifles were allowed during ML season with certain restrictions such as requiring an exposed hammer and chambered for cartridges prior to some date….maybe 1890???.....it would change hardly anything as far as deer numbers harvested. The Sharps rifle company would sell a few more guns but not many people would be willing to spend that kind of money – only a few of us real gun nuts – modern inline ML’s would still dominate the woods during ML season and everybody would be happy.

(Oh and in my experience, most of the time, deer run off when you shoot and miss so neither of these type rifles can be reloaded fast enough to give a hunter a second shot. Again, MOST of the time. \:\) I know that every now and then a deer just stands there.)
This is my point and proposal in a nutshell, and the way Mississippi originally designed theirs

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#3074564 - 12/11/12 03:23 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
punkcat
4 Point


Registered: 03/27/10
Posts: 130
Loc: The Rock

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I would have no problem with iron sights only during MZ. No optics on MZ and crossbows.
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#3074570 - 12/11/12 03:34 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: punkcat]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19014
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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I would have no problem with using whatever weapon you want.
Just replace archery & muzzleloader season segments with a continuous "deer" season, any weapon you prefer.
2 buck limit, doe limit subject to change.

And, again, just to be fair, since we have accommodated the turkey hunters by allowing for a "fall turkey" season, shouldn't we now have a "spring deer" season? It's really not fair to force everyone to hunt deer only when bucks have hard antlers, as there may be some special needs hunters who only want to kill bucks with no antlers. There is only a small window between antler shedding and re-growing, so the "spring deer" season would probably need to coincide with the "spring turkey" ---- just to be fair.

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#3074581 - 12/11/12 03:39 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: punkcat]
SES
8 Point


Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 1160
Loc: Corryton, Tn

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Holy bleeping bleep!! Who gives a frogs fat how Mississippi designed their hunting season. This is Tennessee. Buy a non-resident tag for Mississippi and go nuts with your single shot. If it ain't broke don't fix it,leave well enough alone,let a sleeping dog lie, don't start nuttin' won't be nuttin'...etc.
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#3074628 - 12/11/12 04:05 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
GOODWIN
4 Point


Registered: 02/18/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Jackson, MS

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W

This has been an interesting discussion but rather than focusing on the speed of reloading a ML vs. single shot cartridge gun, I think it might be interesting to consider how far the current ML season has strayed from its original intent due to the use of scopes.

And I think that the use of a scope is much more of an advantage in killing a deer than any perceived gain a single shot cartridge gun would have over a ML because of the cartridge gun's faster reloading. As we all know, much deer movement is in low light and there is no comparison in performance under those conditions between the iron sights of the original ML’s and a modern scope that practically 100% of ML's carry nowadays. With iron sights you lose those valuable minutes of deer movement at the beginning and end of each day. You simply can’t see well enough to shoot whereas if you have a good scope you can use every minute of legal light. Doesn’t that conflict with giving users of “Primitive Weapons” extra time in the woods because they are using a weapon that is so ineffective? I sure wouldn’t trade my inline with a Leupold 3x9 for a true Hawken rifle with iron sights to hunt with. \:\)

I think if single shot rifles were allowed during ML season with certain restrictions such as requiring an exposed hammer and chambered for cartridges prior to some date….maybe 1890???.....it would change hardly anything as far as deer numbers harvested. The Sharps rifle company would sell a few more guns but not many people would be willing to spend that kind of money – only a few of us real gun nuts – modern inline ML’s would still dominate the woods during ML season and everybody would be happy.

(Oh and in my experience, most of the time, deer run off when you shoot and miss so neither of these type rifles can be reloaded fast enough to give a hunter a second shot. Again, MOST of the time. \:\) I know that every now and then a deer just stands there.)
This is my point and proposal in a nutshell, and the way Mississippi originally designed theirs


Now residing in MS, I can tell you that MZ's would not dominate the woods. 9 out of 10 people hunting during the "primitive" season here are shooting breech-loading rifles with the most common being 45/70, 35 whelen, and 444 marlin. The main reason I believe to be the ease of use with less up keep and cleaning. It's also a lot easier to obtain "longe-range" accuracy with these cartridges (150-200yds) than a MZ. Most are shooting the Hornady Leverevolution ammo. And there is no argument that could convince me that it is "almost" as fast reloading a MZ as a single shot rifle. Seconds count when trying to get off a second shot on a deer. Gun companies have obviously loved this new regulation. I myself choose to still shoot the smoke-pole because I love the tradition of the TN muzzleloader season and I don't want to cough up the coin for a new gun. I vote to keep the TN season the way it is if my out-of-state vote counts for anything.
_________________________
Kill it and grill it

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#3074813 - 12/11/12 06:13 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: GOODWIN]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19014
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: GOODWIN
Gun companies have obviously loved this new regulation.

How do you think the push for the reg began?
Deer hunters would have pushed for something they already own, like their regular centerfire deer rifles or slug guns.

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