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#3072318 - 12/10/12 10:30 AM Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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Last year I proposed a change to mimic Mississippi's muzzleloader season here which would allow the use of single shot rifles and shotguns during the muzzleloader season, being that muzzleloaders are not really primitive weapons any longer and a single shot rifle or handgun chambered in a .35 caliber or larger cartridge that was a previous black powder cartridge like a 38/40, 44/40, 45/70, current handgun cartridge or a single shot shotgun with the foster style or sabot slug offers no advantage over a muzzleloader and in some ways not be as good as a muzzleloader. I am making another presentation this February and would like some feedback. Please view the survey and answer accordingly.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Z6R68PS

Here is Mississippi's Regulation:

single or double barreled muzzleloading rifles of .38 caliber or larger

single shot, breech loading cartridge rifles of .35 caliber or larger

single or double barreled shotguns loaded with a single ball or slug

Initially it was the "sharps" and 1885 hi-wall style rifles that were legal, but it was so confusing on how the "original, replicas, and reproductions" portion was allowed to be used, they opened it up to ANY breech loaded single shot rifle, .35 caliber or larger


Edited by contendershooter (12/10/12 03:03 PM)
Edit Reason: additional information

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#3072328 - 12/10/12 10:37 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
scn
16 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
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Loc: Brentwood, TN US

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No advantage over a muzzleloader? That is a stretch.

While the ballistics of some of those weapons are similar, the ease of reloading and getting off additonal shots is a total game changer from the current muzzleloading season.

Hopefully the Commission will continue to keep it as a muzzleloading season.
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#3072334 - 12/10/12 10:41 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: scn]
plinker22
16 Point


Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 12830
Loc: Mountians of East Tennessee

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I'm with scn on this.
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#3072335 - 12/10/12 10:41 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: scn]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19448
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: scn
Hopefully the Commission will continue to keep it as a muzzleloading season.

And/or just make it "any" weapon.

What I don't want to see is any more "special" weapons segments, promoted more by manufacturers/sellers of these than by hunter demand.

Why should we demand hunters go out and buy a new "weapon" so they can participate in better hunting opportunity?

If hunting opportunity can be expanded, then let's do it with weapons most deer hunters already own. What we don't need to do is put some special weapons enthusiasts on a pedestal, and continue this dividing of hunters.

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#3072346 - 12/10/12 10:48 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wes Parrish]
Hangnail
14 Point


Registered: 11/30/00
Posts: 7535
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I wouldn't have any problem at all with single shot rifles or shotguns legalized for the current muzzleloader season. I'm neither for nor against it. I think Louisiana has the same or similar weapons available for use now. I do think it would increase the hunter numbers to some degree which would probably increase the kill, which is why Louisiana changed their rules. If the powers that be at TWRA think the number of deer taken and hunter participation is fine like it is, I don't see them changing anything.
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#3072445 - 12/10/12 11:54 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hangnail]
chiggerbit
Spike


Registered: 09/16/11
Posts: 72
Loc: Lebanon, TN

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No, please, NO!

Mississippi's season was referred to as "PRIMITIVE WEAPONS" already, but Tennessee's muzzleloader season has been and is still just that, and should only be for muzzleloaders or bows. Period. It's just my opinion, but why change it? So what if modern advances in muzzleloading have helped with accuracy/terminal performance, minimizing corrosion/cleaning issues, and loading?

Also, being a guy that actually deer hunts with a single shot rifle, my New England Handi-Rifle has a HUGE advantage over a muzzleloader in terms of ease and speed of reloading.

As for shotguns, I started deer hunting while in college in southern Illinois. No matter the advances with slug guns and sabots, I see no sense in encouraging guys to go afield with something that's not nearly as accurate as a muzzleloader. Lighter ones kick like a mule, which encourages flinching/less practice, and the heavy ones are just that, HEAVY, and useless for anything but shooting deer at relatively close ranges for a firearm. I've been muzzle loading here in TN for years, and I've also been in the woods on a couple of mornings in Illinois farm country where you'd think that Dove season had started instead of the first shotgun weekend! Poll the deer and see what they think! lol.


Edited by chiggerbit (12/10/12 12:02 PM)

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#3072474 - 12/10/12 12:14 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: chiggerbit]
strutandrut
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Registered: 07/03/06
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No
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#3072498 - 12/10/12 12:30 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: strutandrut]
OHVATN
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Registered: 10/09/12
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My vote would be for a primitive muzzleloader season - no inlines, only flint or caps and black powder. No scopes. Alternatively, turn bow season into bow and primitive muzzleloader.

Now this should make the inliners and bow hunters rabid.
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#3072502 - 12/10/12 12:32 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: strutandrut]
MUP
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 Originally Posted By: strutandrut
No


And no again. Just like having the distinct different seasons myself.
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#3072510 - 12/10/12 12:35 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: OHVATN]
Rubberduck270
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Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2979
Loc: Lawrence Co.

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 Originally Posted By: sds1961
My vote would be for a primitive muzzleloader season - no inlines, only flint or caps and black powder. No scopes. Alternatively, turn bow season into bow and primitive muzzleloader.

Now this should make the inliners and bow hunters rabid.

I'll gladly tote my TC New Englander during bow season if it comes to it. Pretty primitive weaponry.

I'd like to keep muzzleloader season just for muzzleloaders though. And I don't understand how you classify a primitive weapon as a single shot rifle, when they made muzzleloaders long before they had cartridges.
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Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

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#3072528 - 12/10/12 12:45 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: MUP]
Hunter 257W
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Registered: 10/04/12
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I don't see how anybody can say that allowing handguns during ML season would give a hunter an advantage over the ML.

If the singleshot rifles were allowed, I doubt it would change the number of deer taken hardly any with the caliber restrictions you speak of. Few hunters would buy a single shot rifle just to gain the small advantage over a ML for a mere 2 weeks. I most likely would, but then I'm a gun nut. For instance a NEF singleshot in 357Magnum reamed out to chamber the 357Maximum would be a great woods deer rifle. \:\)

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#3072537 - 12/10/12 12:51 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hunter 257W]
wtbh236
4 Point


Registered: 11/08/11
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Loc: maury co tn

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no way
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#3072542 - 12/10/12 12:53 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hunter 257W]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2979
Loc: Lawrence Co.

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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
I don't see how anybody can say that allowing handguns during ML season would give a hunter an advantage over the ML.

If the singleshot rifles were allowed, I doubt it would change the number of deer taken hardly any with the caliber restrictions you speak of. Few hunters would buy a single shot rifle just to gain the small advantage over a ML for a mere 2 weeks. I most likely would, but then I'm a gun nut. For instance a NEF singleshot in 357Magnum reamed out to chamber the 357Maximum would be a great woods deer rifle. \:\)

I'd like to see someone push a 200 gr. bullet 2700 fps out of a pistol cartridge. I'll keep my Smokeless ML and let ya'll play with pistol cartridges and 45-70s.
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#3072628 - 12/10/12 01:53 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: scn]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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It's actually not a stretch, most muzzleloaders out there are shooting 150 grains of 777, Pyrodex, or Blackhorn, smokeless powder in the case of the Savage ML-10II and with those loads and a good 250gr to 300gr sabot, you have a weapon that equals a 45/70 on steroids, is more accurate than your smooth-bore or rifled slug gun, so what's the point? I have went over this multiple times looking at numbers ballistically, and the muzzleloader has the velocity and ft-lbs advantage. Magazines have reviewed the same muzzleloader vs shotgun argument and muzzleloader came out on top the majority of the time. And as far as reload times, with these fast reload tubes you can get for muzzleloaders now, it can be done in about the same time to break open your single shot, fumble around with a new fresh shell, insert, aim and fire again. And let's not forget sabot shotgun slugs use the same 209 primers, and the same bullets that are in muzzleloader sabots
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#3072629 - 12/10/12 01:54 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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see this is proof, and I can confirm what he is saying as I have a Savage 10MLII also and can attest to this
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#3072634 - 12/10/12 01:56 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hangnail]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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It's Mississippi that has those laws, Louisiana is considering going that route
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#3072635 - 12/10/12 01:57 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: chiggerbit]
contendershooter
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Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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Chiggerbit, that is your opinion, and I appreciate that, but I can tell you that I can reload a muzzleloader every bit as fast as I can my NEF partner shotgun, or my TC Contender Pistol or Rifle.
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#3072638 - 12/10/12 01:58 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hunter 257W]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
I don't see how anybody can say that allowing handguns during ML season would give a hunter an advantage over the ML.

If the singleshot rifles were allowed, I doubt it would change the number of deer taken hardly any with the caliber restrictions you speak of. Few hunters would buy a single shot rifle just to gain the small advantage over a ML for a mere 2 weeks. I most likely would, but then I'm a gun nut. For instance a NEF singleshot in 357Magnum reamed out to chamber the 357Maximum would be a great woods deer rifle. \:\)
That is a mouth watering propsition...or a 445 Supermag from a 44 Magnum

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#3072657 - 12/10/12 02:12 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
scn
16 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 10371
Loc: Brentwood, TN US

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
It's actually not a stretch, most muzzleloaders out there are shooting 150 grains of 777, Pyrodex, or Blackhorn, smokeless powder in the case of the Savage ML-10II and with those loads and a good 250gr to 300gr sabot, you have a weapon that equals a 45/70 on steroids, is more accurate than your smooth-bore or rifled slug gun, so what's the point? I have went over this multiple times looking at numbers ballistically, and the muzzleloader has the velocity and ft-lbs advantage. Magazines have reviewed the same muzzleloader vs shotgun argument and muzzleloader came out on top the majority of the time. And as far as reload times, with these fast reload tubes you can get for muzzleloaders now, it can be done in about the same time to break open your single shot, fumble around with a new fresh shell, insert, aim and fire again. And let's not forget sabot shotgun slugs use the same 209 primers, and the same bullets that are in muzzleloader sabots


You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, after using muzzleloaders and break action firearms for over 40 years, I can tell you the reloading time between the two types is not even close. In addition, the motions needed to reload a muzzleloader make getting a second shot off at a deer extremely difficult.

So, yes, there are similarities in some of the ballistics, but totally different ball games in the hunting applications.
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#3072674 - 12/10/12 02:19 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2979
Loc: Lawrence Co.

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
I don't see how anybody can say that allowing handguns during ML season would give a hunter an advantage over the ML.

If the singleshot rifles were allowed, I doubt it would change the number of deer taken hardly any with the caliber restrictions you speak of. Few hunters would buy a single shot rifle just to gain the small advantage over a ML for a mere 2 weeks. I most likely would, but then I'm a gun nut. For instance a NEF singleshot in 357Magnum reamed out to chamber the 357Maximum would be a great woods deer rifle. \:\)
That is a mouth watering propsition...or a 445 Supermag from a 44 Magnum

When you start talking about reaming barrels and rechambering rifles you get away from what I would consider a "primitive" rifle altogether. Over-the-counter calibers are what most would use if this ever went through.

And in all honesty, I don't care how fast you think you can reload a muzzleloader. I know I can reload a single shot faster than you can load a muzzleloader. And I'll even let you have your ramrod already out \:\)
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Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

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#3072688 - 12/10/12 02:24 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
chiggerbit
Spike


Registered: 09/16/11
Posts: 72
Loc: Lebanon, TN

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
Chiggerbit, that is your opinion, and I appreciate that, but I can tell you that I can reload a muzzleloader every bit as fast as I can my NEF partner shotgun, or my TC Contender Pistol or Rifle.


PLEASE post a youtube video of that comparison. That I gotta see.

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#3072701 - 12/10/12 02:31 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: scn]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: scn
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
It's actually not a stretch, most muzzleloaders out there are shooting 150 grains of 777, Pyrodex, or Blackhorn, smokeless powder in the case of the Savage ML-10II and with those loads and a good 250gr to 300gr sabot, you have a weapon that equals a 45/70 on steroids, is more accurate than your smooth-bore or rifled slug gun, so what's the point? I have went over this multiple times looking at numbers ballistically, and the muzzleloader has the velocity and ft-lbs advantage. Magazines have reviewed the same muzzleloader vs shotgun argument and muzzleloader came out on top the majority of the time. And as far as reload times, with these fast reload tubes you can get for muzzleloaders now, it can be done in about the same time to break open your single shot, fumble around with a new fresh shell, insert, aim and fire again. And let's not forget sabot shotgun slugs use the same 209 primers, and the same bullets that are in muzzleloader sabots


You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, after using muzzleloaders and break action firearms for over 40 years, I can tell you the reloading time between the two types is not even close. In addition, the motions needed to reload a muzzleloader make getting a second shot off at a deer extremely difficult.

So, yes, there are similarities in some of the ballistics, but totally different ball games in the hunting applications.
Here is my deal, if the season was longer than two weeks, then I would agree. I think we can all agree here the first youth hunt and muzzleloader season is the peak of TN deer hunting, and maybe the first week of rifle, then after that, especially here in middle TN its downhill from there. So for that two week period, I am simply wanting someone who doesn't feel safe around muzzleloaders, an older person who my have trouble loading them, a person who only has the money for one gun to hunt, not to mention the extra fees from licenses of more people hunting and the revenue from the ammo tax, which BTW doesn't apply to black powder and accessories, that TWRA would get. From whom I have asked at TWRA so far, they stated it would not make that big of a difference during those two weeks, as it did not make that big of a difference in Mississippi. And here me out, I am saying make single shot handguns in any .35 caliber or larger pistol cartridge legal, and your .35 caliber rifles that were "former" black powder cartridges such as the 38/40, 44/40, 45/70, etc. With Mississippi's regs, you can hunt with a 35 Remington single shot, 35 Whelen Single Shot, 350 Rem Mag, anything, and I am not proposing making it that loose.

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#3072725 - 12/10/12 02:46 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12090
Loc: Benton Co.

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
It's actually not a stretch, most muzzleloaders out there are shooting 150 grains of 777, Pyrodex, or Blackhorn, smokeless powder in the case of the Savage ML-10II and with those loads and a good 250gr to 300gr sabot, you have a weapon that equals a 45/70 on steroids, is more accurate than your smooth-bore or rifled slug gun, so what's the point? I have went over this multiple times looking at numbers ballistically, and the muzzleloader has the velocity and ft-lbs advantage. Magazines have reviewed the same muzzleloader vs shotgun argument and muzzleloader came out on top the majority of the time. And as far as reload times, with these fast reload tubes you can get for muzzleloaders now, it can be done in about the same time to break open your single shot, fumble around with a new fresh shell, insert, aim and fire again. And let's not forget sabot shotgun slugs use the same 209 primers, and the same bullets that are in muzzleloader sabots



""Magazines have reviewed the same muzzleloader vs shotgun argument and muzzleloader came out on top " "
That says it all right there. MAGAZINES and Gun makers are who will benifit. They fuel the fire for many things that have nothing to do with herd health or happy hunters.They are in it for the money.New seasons new weapons equals more money.
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#3072743 - 12/10/12 02:58 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
megalomaniac
12 Point


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 5198
Loc: Mississippi

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my cousin pushes 400 grainers at 2300 fps outta his pistol... it's a .416-06 JDJ encore \:\)

keep ML's as primitive weapons and just move the season to the last week of Dec and first week of Jan.

Open rifle season at the current ML's timeframe (first weekend in Nov)

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#3072747 - 12/10/12 02:58 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12090
Loc: Benton Co.

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""It's actually not a stretch, most muzzleloaders out there are shooting 150 grains of 777, Pyrodex, or Blackhorn, smokeless powder in the case of the Savage ML-10II and with those loads and a good 250gr to 300gr sabot, you have a weapon that equals a 45/70 on steroids""
Here's the real deal on most M.L. are shooting 150 grains of some type of powder.That extra 50 grains is going up in smoke with most B.P. weapons. Very few moderen muzzle loaders have 28" barrels. Many are 26".You need a longer barrel to efficently burn the powder and get inproved results.AS the Deer Assasin likes to say "the Chronograph don't lie" :).I shoot a Remington Gensis for the extra 2".
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#3072756 - 12/10/12 03:04 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: MUP]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: MUP
 Originally Posted By: strutandrut
No


And no again. Just like having the distinct different seasons myself.
you will still have that distinct season, and you can still shoot a smokepole if you so choose

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#3072760 - 12/10/12 03:05 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: megalomaniac]
Outdoor Enthusiast
8 Point


Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 1002
Loc: Carthage, TN

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 Originally Posted By: megalomaniac
my cousin pushes 400 grainers at 2300 fps outta his pistol... it's a .416-06 JDJ encore \:\)

keep ML's as primitive weapons and just move the season to the last week of Dec and first week of Jan.

Open rifle season at the current ML's timeframe (first weekend in Nov)

I like this. I want a rifle in my hands during the first and second weeks of November. Particuarly the second week on my farm.

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#3072767 - 12/10/12 03:07 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12090
Loc: Benton Co.

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I think TWRA and most the hunters I know are liking the new trend toward "Keeping it Simple".
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#3072771 - 12/10/12 03:09 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Outdoor Enthusiast]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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moving the seasons around really belongs in the 13-14 seasons change forum, but TWRA has the seasons pretty good as they are; I would like to see deer season open the second week of September and close Dec 31st. Keep the seasons the same where bow closes, then primitive then gun. I do think the does need to go to 4 per day and the bucks down to two per year.

This year I have only seen one doe the entire year, no bucks, and I typically see two to four good bucks per year. My father-in-law is retired and hunts almost daily and has only seen a handful of does, and three bucks, one of which he harvested. The past two years, deer season has been really strange. Weather maybe?

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#3072778 - 12/10/12 03:11 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2979
Loc: Lawrence Co.

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
So for that two week period, I am simply wanting someone who doesn't feel safe around muzzleloaders, an older person who my have trouble loading them, a person who only has the money for one gun to hunt

So if you only have the money to hunt with one gun, you want this person to go out and buy another gun to use in the "primitive" season? 45-70s and the majority of the other cartridges you listed aren't a dime a dozen in TN. You can find a ML alot easier than you can a 45-70 in my neck of the woods.

 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
And here me out, I am saying make single shot handguns in any .35 caliber or larger pistol cartridge legal, and your .35 caliber rifles that were "former" black powder cartridges such as the 38/40, 44/40, 45/70

And again, it's been years since I've laid eyes on a 44-40. My local Wal-Mart don't stock ammo for any of the 3 cartridges you just listed.

If a person doesn't feel comfortable shooting a ML how do they feel comfortable shooting a centerfire rifle? I can see what goes into the barrel of my ML when I load it. Do you know exactly how much and what type of powder is in each loaded round you buy? Nope.

And if you don't have the strength to reload a ML how do you have the strength to fire a regular rifle? ML's can be loaded at home by someone with the ability to load it then used in the field by another person that may not have the ability. And if you can't physically load a ML, then you really don't need to be hunting alone.
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Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

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#3072787 - 12/10/12 03:15 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
EastTNHunter
10 Point


Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 3070
Loc: Rhea Co., TN

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
I do think the does need to go to 4 per day and the bucks down to two per year.

This year I have only seen one doe the entire year, no bucks, and I typically see two to four good bucks per year. My father-in-law is retired and hunts almost daily and has only seen a handful of does, and three bucks, one of which he harvested.


Then why do you want to see the bag limit changed to 4 does per day?

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#3072793 - 12/10/12 03:19 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
chiggerbit
Spike


Registered: 09/16/11
Posts: 72
Loc: Lebanon, TN

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
I can reload a muzzleloader every bit as fast as I can my NEF partner shotgun, or my TC Contender Pistol or Rifle.


I just had to go back and make sure I read that claim right, but take the speed out the equation.

I haven't even thought about trying to reload my .50 cal muzzleloader without taking my eyes off the target like I did as a youngster with a .410 under a hickory with a fox squirrel in the top. Come on, man. No comparison. With all due respect, even if you could reload a muzzleloader so fast, such bragging could encourage carelessness by someone else. Know what I mean?

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#3072816 - 12/10/12 03:25 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: chiggerbit]
jb3
10 Point


Registered: 02/23/09
Posts: 4269
Loc: Burns, TN

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Really don't want to do anything in TN that they do in Mississippi. \:\)
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#3072837 - 12/10/12 03:35 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
TCounty Hunter
4 Point


Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 398
Loc: Tipton County

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I like a muzzy only season as well. I only recently went to an inline, i shot a cap and no scope for years. BONUS, generally much less people (around me) are hunting during muzzle loader season, which is nice. Come gun season, its like WWII around me because I hunt a smaller piece of property, so I consider muzzy my peaceful, less pressured, hunting time.
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#3072843 - 12/10/12 03:38 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: TCounty Hunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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If we are going to go so far as to include shotguns and single-shot rifles in MZ season, just do away with MZ season and make it all-gun season.
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#3072844 - 12/10/12 03:38 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
Hunter 257W
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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
I don't see how anybody can say that allowing handguns during ML season would give a hunter an advantage over the ML.

If the singleshot rifles were allowed, I doubt it would change the number of deer taken hardly any with the caliber restrictions you speak of. Few hunters would buy a single shot rifle just to gain the small advantage over a ML for a mere 2 weeks. I most likely would, but then I'm a gun nut. For instance a NEF singleshot in 357Magnum reamed out to chamber the 357Maximum would be a great woods deer rifle. \:\)
That is a mouth watering propsition...or a 445 Supermag from a 44 Magnum

When you start talking about reaming barrels and rechambering rifles you get away from what I would consider a "primitive" rifle altogether. Over-the-counter calibers are what most would use if this ever went through.

And in all honesty, I don't care how fast you think you can reload a muzzleloader. I know I can reload a single shot faster than you can load a muzzleloader. And I'll even let you have your ramrod already out \:\)


Where does it say I thought I could reload a ML fast?? ML's are definitely not fast for a 2nd shot! \:\)

Regarding the single shot rifle in a 357Magnum/Maximum, I was merely thinking outloud about the possibilites if current handgun cartridges were allowed for single shots during ML season. Any excuse to buy another gun to get "free meat".


Edited by Hunter 257W (12/10/12 03:45 PM)

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#3072859 - 12/10/12 03:47 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hunter 257W]
Rubberduck270
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Hunter 257W, I quoted contendershooter in that post. He had quoted your previous post (nested quotes so to speak). He previously stated he could reload his ML as fast as he could reload a single shot rifle. A feat that I would personally like to challenge \:\)
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#3072967 - 12/10/12 04:45 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
strutandrut
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This thread is stupid. Someone joins 3 days ago and gets this kind of response making a statement that will surely get us fired up. Yep, I called it. Old member rejoining to make waves. I will stand by that until proven otherwise.

In the mean time, I'm going to the trail can forum to look at Bigfoot, black panther, and cougar pics.
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#3072970 - 12/10/12 04:46 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
easy45
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No, keep it the way it is
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#3072971 - 12/10/12 04:46 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: strutandrut]
strutandrut
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Oh, and.....


HIGH POWERED RIFLES SHOULD BE ILLEGAL!!!!


\:D
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#3072975 - 12/10/12 04:47 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: strutandrut]
Poser
Mud Dauber
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When MS announced that regulation change, there was a whirlwind of confusion for nearly 3 years. K.I.S.S.
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#3072978 - 12/10/12 04:48 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
easy45
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No, keep it the way it is
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#3073183 - 12/10/12 06:29 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: easy45]
recurve60#
4 Point


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no.
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#3073250 - 12/10/12 07:01 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: recurve60#]
Bowdacious
Skillet
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Why do people want to always change things? It is fine the way it is. A lot of people are happy with the seasons and more importantly, I am happy with it. If anyone wants to hunt the way it is done in another state, move there or buy the out of state license and go hunt there.
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#3073261 - 12/10/12 07:11 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Bowdacious]
Kirk
Cerebral Assassin
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I love the muzzle loader season.
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#3073277 - 12/10/12 07:22 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Kirk]
Hangnail
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Contendershooter, Louisiana does have single shot centerfire rifles of at least .35 caliber, with an exposed hammer, as legal during their primitive weapons season. The change is effective this year. They wanted both more hunter participation and an increased kill. Seems like a needed change if those two things occur.
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#3073995 - 12/11/12 09:26 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
contendershooter
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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
So for that two week period, I am simply wanting someone who doesn't feel safe around muzzleloaders, an older person who my have trouble loading them, a person who only has the money for one gun to hunt

So if you only have the money to hunt with one gun, you want this person to go out and buy another gun to use in the "primitive" season? 45-70s and the majority of the other cartridges you listed aren't a dime a dozen in TN. You can find a ML alot easier than you can a 45-70 in my neck of the woods.

 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
And here me out, I am saying make single shot handguns in any .35 caliber or larger pistol cartridge legal, and your .35 caliber rifles that were "former" black powder cartridges such as the 38/40, 44/40, 45/70

And again, it's been years since I've laid eyes on a 44-40. My local Wal-Mart don't stock ammo for any of the 3 cartridges you just listed.

If a person doesn't feel comfortable shooting a ML how do they feel comfortable shooting a centerfire rifle? I can see what goes into the barrel of my ML when I load it. Do you know exactly how much and what type of powder is in each loaded round you buy? Nope.

And if you don't have the strength to reload a ML how do you have the strength to fire a regular rifle? ML's can be loaded at home by someone with the ability to load it then used in the field by another person that may not have the ability. And if you can't physically load a ML, then you really don't need to be hunting alone.
I know the Wal-Mart in Ashland City near me stocks 45/70 in Remington, Winchester and Federal brands and it sells. I am also saying you can use a pistol cartridge like 357 or 44 mag, 10MM, and we all know they are of less of an advantage to a muzzleloader. In a handgun even more so.

Muzzleloading is expensive, I mean good quality sabots like Barnes or Harvester run you 20.00+ for 15 sabots, then you buy your pellets or loose powder at 30+ dollars, you can buy a box of 45/70's for 35.00, or a box of 44 mags for about the same, and they offer you no more advantage than a muzzleloader does with a good sabot and 150gr load. We can get into the barrel length argument and reload speed, and let's just say the average person could reload a single shot 10 seconds faster...really, do you think it would make that big of a difference over a two week season?

I am all for keeping a dedicated bow season, because I agree 100% once the firearms start ringing off, the deer become more pressured, but for a two week muzzleloader season, if someone wants to use a single shot handgun chambered in a handgun caliber or a slug gun, so beid, they are no more at an advantage than me shooting my Savage 10MLII, and it may offer the opportunity for someone to hunt who otherwise could not.

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#3074003 - 12/11/12 09:29 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hangnail]
contendershooter
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 Originally Posted By: Hangnail
Contendershooter, Louisiana does have single shot centerfire rifles of at least .35 caliber, with an exposed hammer, as legal during their primitive weapons season. The change is effective this year. They wanted both more hunter participation and an increased kill. Seems like a needed change if those two things occur.

interesting, i did not know that had passed in LA yet... I know this has some people stirred, and my whole point is this...if you have a gun that goes boom, fires a single shot, it's really not going to make that big of a difference to use a single shot shotgun that uses the exact same 209 primer to ignite the shell, the exact same bullet in a sabot that you fire from your muzzleloader, or to downgrade yourself, use a foster slug, or shoot a single shot handgun or rifle that are caliber restricted.

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#3074008 - 12/11/12 09:32 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: strutandrut]
contendershooter
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 Originally Posted By: strutandrut
This thread is stupid. Someone joins 3 days ago and gets this kind of response making a statement that will surely get us fired up. Yep, I called it. Old member rejoining to make waves. I will stand by that until proven otherwise.

In the mean time, I'm going to the trail can forum to look at Bigfoot, black panther, and cougar pics.
welcome back to you too, and I joined this forum after looking at the TNDEER site for years, advertising on the classifieds, etc... just have not been interested in posting anything, and this idea was bounced around last year by myself and other hunters I work with so I took it to the commission...I have a presentation to do before the commission in 2013 on the issue, so I am just attempting to get feedback from other hunters before even bothering. I actually do care about what others think unlike some people on this forum and politicians. Sigh....

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#3074016 - 12/11/12 09:36 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
contendershooter
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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
Hunter 257W, I quoted contendershooter in that post. He had quoted your previous post (nested quotes so to speak). He previously stated he could reload his ML as fast as he could reload a single shot rifle. A feat that I would personally like to challenge \:\)
I am not on here to challenge anyone, just to put feelers out on an issue. I am saying I have seen on hunting shows where people have those tube quick loaders, and I have got pretty good with them myself on reloading a smoke pole quick, as you can use those to insert your pellets or powder and push a sabot or bullet all in one push. Granted, I said "just as fast" and I admit I should have wrote "just about as fast" but the time between reloading the two is negligible.

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#3074030 - 12/11/12 09:48 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
scn
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Bull hocky on the time between the two being negligible.
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#3074035 - 12/11/12 09:53 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
contendershooter
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Let me also add this note...inline muzzleloaders are a technological advantage in that weapon line, but they ARE NOT primitive.

If we want a true muzzleloader season where it is a true handicap to a hunter, then we would have to mimic Washington State, Idaho or Oregon's laws which are basically the following:

Inline's are allowed, but their performance is throttled back by the following:

They MUST use a #11 or musket percussion cap

NO SABOTS

Open sights or a scope not over 2 power.

And even with those restrictions, that's still an advantage over a open sight percussion or flintlock. Take a look at Bass Pro Shops Muzzleloader Buyers Guide:

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores...8&storeId=10151

The last quote in the entire article says it all:

"Make no mistake, today's modern replica muzzleloaders, especially in-line versions, are "primitive" weapons in name alone. You can now have many of the modern technological advantages of smokeless, centerfire cartridges and rifles, while still connecting with our shooting and frontier heritage. Enjoy."

This clearly notates that inline muzzleloaders are basically "cartridgeless" centerfire single shot rifles...

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#3074041 - 12/11/12 09:58 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: scn]
contendershooter
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 Originally Posted By: scn
Bull hocky on the time between the two being negligible.
so SCN how long would it take you to aim, fire a shot, pull your ramrod, drop your powder, push a sabot or bullet, cap, and ready yourself to fire again

compared to

aim, fire a shot, break open the firearm, pull out the spent case (if not equipped with an ejector), fumble around in a pocket for a fresh cartridge or slug, or even better pull one from one of those elastic shell holders on the buttstock, insert, and ready to aim again...

If you say the difference is greater than 30-45 seconds, and that is giving a decent leeway, Then I would say its shooter practice, not the weaponry.

So even with an up to 45 second leeway, that would offer how much of an advantage after firing the initial shot that runs everything off around anyways? me thinks not much....

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#3074050 - 12/11/12 10:07 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
scn
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Total different ball game.

But, continue on.
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#3074060 - 12/11/12 10:15 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: scn]
contendershooter
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 Originally Posted By: scn
Total different ball game.

But, continue on.
So sir, please explain why you are so adamantly against what I am proposing...let's modify it a bit even

what about allowing single shot shotguns and muzzleloaders only, since we are using the same 209 primer and same bullet in a sabot, or even as a downgrade the old pumpkin ball?

I am glad that Knight Rifles are now built in Tennessee, and they are a great company, but go to page 11 of the TWRA hunting guide and reference their own advertisement and I quote...

-Total Weight of 6 lbs
-Ultra Light Kevlar Stock
-Aluminum Bedded
-24" stainless steel contoured barrel
-jeweled bolt
-fully adjustable trigger

and you call this a "primitive" muzzleloader and you think you would be at a disadvantage with a smoke pole like this compared with someone with a single shot shotgun with a bead sight or even a scope? Man that is a stretch...no matter the ball game

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#3074066 - 12/11/12 10:21 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: chiggerbit]
7wsm
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 Originally Posted By: chiggerbit
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
Chiggerbit, that is your opinion, and I appreciate that, but I can tell you that I can reload a muzzleloader every bit as fast as I can my NEF partner shotgun, or my TC Contender Pistol or Rifle.


PLEASE post a youtube video of that comparison. That I gotta see.
now this would be worth watching

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#3074072 - 12/11/12 10:28 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: scn]
SES
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Registered: 10/13/11
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 Originally Posted By: scn
Bull hocky on the time between the two being negligible.
x2. Not possible.

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#3074103 - 12/11/12 10:48 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: SES]
Wes Parrish
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 Originally Posted By: SES
 Originally Posted By: scn
Bull hocky on the time between the two being negligible.
x2. Not possible.

x 3

Any of you ever tried to pour your loose powder into the barrel on a windy day?

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#3074113 - 12/11/12 10:54 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wes Parrish]
MUP
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B/C it's muzzle loader season....not breech loader season. Big difference no matter what anyone may say. And that's the nitty gritty of the subject. I'm still in favor of keeping muzzleloader season just that...muzzle loader season.
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#3074122 - 12/11/12 10:58 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
stik
"Popcorn"
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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
Let me also add this note...inline muzzleloaders are a technological advantage in that weapon line, but they ARE NOT primitive.




inline rifles were around in the 1700's. tennessee's MUZZLELOADER season has NEVER been a primitive weapon season but a MUZZLELOADER season.
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#3074138 - 12/11/12 11:17 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: stik]
contendershooter
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I would like all of you to re-visit the survey site, as after looking at the responses here on this post, I have modified the answer selections after recording the data from the previous answers. Please take time to retake the survey.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Z6R68PS

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#3074140 - 12/11/12 11:20 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
pseshooter300
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I say leave it muzzle loader like it is
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#3074153 - 12/11/12 11:26 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: SES]
Hunter 257W
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This has been an interesting discussion but rather than focusing on the speed of reloading a ML vs. single shot cartridge gun, I think it might be interesting to consider how far the current ML season has strayed from its original intent due to the use of scopes.

And I think that the use of a scope is much more of an advantage in killing a deer than any perceived gain a single shot cartridge gun would have over a ML because of the cartridge gun's faster reloading. As we all know, much deer movement is in low light and there is no comparison in performance under those conditions between the iron sights of the original ML’s and a modern scope that practically 100% of ML's carry nowadays. With iron sights you lose those valuable minutes of deer movement at the beginning and end of each day. You simply can’t see well enough to shoot whereas if you have a good scope you can use every minute of legal light. Doesn’t that conflict with giving users of “Primitive Weapons” extra time in the woods because they are using a weapon that is so ineffective? I sure wouldn’t trade my inline with a Leupold 3x9 for a true Hawken rifle with iron sights to hunt with. \:\)

I think if single shot rifles were allowed during ML season with certain restrictions such as requiring an exposed hammer and chambered for cartridges prior to some date….maybe 1890???.....it would change hardly anything as far as deer numbers harvested. The Sharps rifle company would sell a few more guns but not many people would be willing to spend that kind of money – only a few of us real gun nuts – modern inline ML’s would still dominate the woods during ML season and everybody would be happy.

(Oh and in my experience, most of the time, deer run off when you shoot and miss so neither of these type rifles can be reloaded fast enough to give a hunter a second shot. Again, MOST of the time. \:\) I know that every now and then a deer just stands there.)

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#3074162 - 12/11/12 11:33 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hunter 257W]
Wes Parrish
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More and more, I'm convinced the "special" season segments are becoming more about marketing products related to them, than having much to do with hunters' wishes, much less deer management.

Why should the weapon preferences of a very small minority of hunters dictate deer-hunting regulations? Why should manufacturers & marketers of "special" weapons and products dictate deer-hunting regulations?

Should not the regs be mainly focused more on the balance between biologically sound deer management and the preferences of the super-majority of deer hunters?

Whom is served when the purchase of expensive products to participate is required by most?

Change is the only thing constant.
A few decades ago we had essentially no deer in Tennessee.
Later we had more hunters than deer.
Now we have a lot more deer than hunters, with a probable trend of a growing deer population and steady to declining number of deer hunters.

But when we do make changes, to whom should those changes cater to most?

Maybe South Carolina has it right.
Just open deer season on a certain date, then close it on a certain date. Let the hunters hunt with whichever weapon(s) they already own or might be willing to purchase, as opposed to being forced to purchase to participate in some "special" season.

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#3074186 - 12/11/12 11:48 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wes Parrish]
smyrnagc
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How is the survey trending so far (what are the percentages for change/no change?
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#3074235 - 12/11/12 12:20 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
Rubberduck270
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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter

-Total Weight of 6 lbs
-Ultra Light Kevlar Stock
-Aluminum Bedded
-24" stainless steel contoured barrel
-jeweled bolt
-fully adjustable trigger

and you call this a "primitive" muzzleloader and you think you would be at a disadvantage with a smoke pole like this compared with someone with a single shot shotgun with a bead sight or even a scope? Man that is a stretch...no matter the ball game

You can put a brand new engine in a Model T Ford and it's still an antique automobile. No matter how you dress up a ML it's still primitive because it is incapable of being loaded from the breech. Breech loading rifles were a great advancement in firearms. Reloading time was greatly reduced. Which is still the challenge associated with them today. You get 1 shot.

You want to remove scopes from MLs? Lets do away with sights on archery equipment too. See how good those bows shoot then. As hunters, it's our job to make the most ethical shot on an animal as possible. Scopes and sights allow us to accomplish this. Heck if ya'll want to get real "primitive" lets ban all forms of percussion caps, sabots, sights and RIFLING in the barrels. Just stuff yer smooth bore full of Pyrodex and a punkin' ball then set her off with good ol' hunk of flint \:\)

Keep yer powder dry fellers!
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#3074269 - 12/11/12 12:44 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: stik]
Robtattoo
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Registered: 08/14/12
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 Originally Posted By: stik

inline rifles were around in the 1700's.


Could you please provide documented evidence of this?
So far as I'm aware, only one single rifle has been discovered with an 'inline' flint mechanism: Paczelt rifle.
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#3074279 - 12/11/12 12:48 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Robtattoo]
Robtattoo
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Registered: 08/14/12
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Whoops! Sorry about the photo size!
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#3074308 - 12/11/12 01:01 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Robtattoo]
MUP
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Good gosh! That rifle is HUGE! \:D
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#3074402 - 12/11/12 01:40 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: stik]
Hunter 257W
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 Originally Posted By: stik
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
Let me also add this note...inline muzzleloaders are a technological advantage in that weapon line, but they ARE NOT primitive.




inline rifles were around in the 1700's. tennessee's MUZZLELOADER season has NEVER been a primitive weapon season but a MUZZLELOADER season.


But the original in-line ML's weren't even close in performance to todays guns using 209 primers, preformed powder pellets and sabots to fire sub-caliber jacketed bullets with plastic aerodynamic tips. You are right that the season was never called a "Primitive Weapon" season but the fact that most ML's at that time were replicas of the originals was the justification used to give ML hunters extra time to hunt without competing with guys using 30-06's, 270's etc.

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#3074466 - 12/11/12 02:16 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hunter 257W]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
You are right that the season was never called a "Primitive Weapon" season but the fact that most ML's at that time were replicas of the originals was the justification used to give ML hunters extra time to hunt without competing with guys using 30-06's, 270's etc.


The original justification for an MZ season had nothing to do with "competition" with other types of weapons. The season was created because virtually no one was going to hunt it! It was looked upon as a season that would produce few if any harvests. In essence, it was all about how much impact it would have (virtually none) on the state's project of restoring the deer herds. The same is true of bow season. It was created because, at the time, no one bow hunted. They could allow a month of bow season because an insignificant number of deer would be harvested.

During restoration, season lengths and dates were always about maximizing hunting opportunity while doing no harm to the deer population.
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#3074547 - 12/11/12 03:06 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: BSK]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
You are right that the season was never called a "Primitive Weapon" season but the fact that most ML's at that time were replicas of the originals was the justification used to give ML hunters extra time to hunt without competing with guys using 30-06's, 270's etc.


The original justification for an MZ season had nothing to do with "competition" with other types of weapons. The season was created because virtually no one was going to hunt it! It was looked upon as a season that would produce few if any harvests. In essence, it was all about how much impact it would have (virtually none) on the state's project of restoring the deer herds. The same is true of bow season. It was created because, at the time, no one bow hunted. They could allow a month of bow season because an insignificant number of deer would be harvested.

During restoration, season lengths and dates were always about maximizing hunting opportunity while doing no harm to the deer population.
That's fine, if that was the original intent. Louisiana and Mississipppi never probably originally intended to allow cartridge fired rifles during muzzleloader and change it to a primitive season. So that is why this discussion is good, to see what people would like.

I would say I would be much more in approval for allowing the proposed weapons versus an all weapons season.

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#3074552 - 12/11/12 03:10 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hunter 257W]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
 Originally Posted By: stik
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
Let me also add this note...inline muzzleloaders are a technological advantage in that weapon line, but they ARE NOT primitive.




inline rifles were around in the 1700's. tennessee's MUZZLELOADER season has NEVER been a primitive weapon season but a MUZZLELOADER season.


But the original in-line ML's weren't even close in performance to todays guns using 209 primers, preformed powder pellets and sabots to fire sub-caliber jacketed bullets with plastic aerodynamic tips. You are right that the season was never called a "Primitive Weapon" season but the fact that most ML's at that time were replicas of the originals was the justification used to give ML hunters extra time to hunt without competing with guys using 30-06's, 270's etc.
exactly my point...i remember when the 45 caliber muzzleloaders surfaced in popularity during the 777 magnum pellet craze and you seen cabela's, bass pro and other catalogs with 2600-2800fps muzzle velocity advertisements

today's muzzleloaders are nothing compared to the well advanced side hammer jobs from just 15 years ago. I had a T/C White Mountain Carbine with the musket cap conversion that was top notch at the time, and with a 4x12 power scope mounted it would keep three TC 370gr maxi balls pushed by 90gr of FFg in around 3-4" at 100 yards. Todays muzzleloaders could put three rounds inside that pattern and then some.

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#3074554 - 12/11/12 03:11 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hunter 257W]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W

This has been an interesting discussion but rather than focusing on the speed of reloading a ML vs. single shot cartridge gun, I think it might be interesting to consider how far the current ML season has strayed from its original intent due to the use of scopes.

And I think that the use of a scope is much more of an advantage in killing a deer than any perceived gain a single shot cartridge gun would have over a ML because of the cartridge gun's faster reloading. As we all know, much deer movement is in low light and there is no comparison in performance under those conditions between the iron sights of the original ML’s and a modern scope that practically 100% of ML's carry nowadays. With iron sights you lose those valuable minutes of deer movement at the beginning and end of each day. You simply can’t see well enough to shoot whereas if you have a good scope you can use every minute of legal light. Doesn’t that conflict with giving users of “Primitive Weapons” extra time in the woods because they are using a weapon that is so ineffective? I sure wouldn’t trade my inline with a Leupold 3x9 for a true Hawken rifle with iron sights to hunt with. \:\)

I think if single shot rifles were allowed during ML season with certain restrictions such as requiring an exposed hammer and chambered for cartridges prior to some date….maybe 1890???.....it would change hardly anything as far as deer numbers harvested. The Sharps rifle company would sell a few more guns but not many people would be willing to spend that kind of money – only a few of us real gun nuts – modern inline ML’s would still dominate the woods during ML season and everybody would be happy.

(Oh and in my experience, most of the time, deer run off when you shoot and miss so neither of these type rifles can be reloaded fast enough to give a hunter a second shot. Again, MOST of the time. \:\) I know that every now and then a deer just stands there.)
This is my point and proposal in a nutshell, and the way Mississippi originally designed theirs

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#3074564 - 12/11/12 03:23 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
punkcat
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Registered: 03/27/10
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I would have no problem with iron sights only during MZ. No optics on MZ and crossbows.
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#3074570 - 12/11/12 03:34 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: punkcat]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19448
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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I would have no problem with using whatever weapon you want.
Just replace archery & muzzleloader season segments with a continuous "deer" season, any weapon you prefer.
2 buck limit, doe limit subject to change.

And, again, just to be fair, since we have accommodated the turkey hunters by allowing for a "fall turkey" season, shouldn't we now have a "spring deer" season? It's really not fair to force everyone to hunt deer only when bucks have hard antlers, as there may be some special needs hunters who only want to kill bucks with no antlers. There is only a small window between antler shedding and re-growing, so the "spring deer" season would probably need to coincide with the "spring turkey" ---- just to be fair.

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#3074581 - 12/11/12 03:39 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: punkcat]
SES
8 Point


Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 1301
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Holy bleeping bleep!! Who gives a frogs fat how Mississippi designed their hunting season. This is Tennessee. Buy a non-resident tag for Mississippi and go nuts with your single shot. If it ain't broke don't fix it,leave well enough alone,let a sleeping dog lie, don't start nuttin' won't be nuttin'...etc.
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#3074628 - 12/11/12 04:05 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
GOODWIN
4 Point


Registered: 02/18/08
Posts: 448
Loc: Chattanooga, TN

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W

This has been an interesting discussion but rather than focusing on the speed of reloading a ML vs. single shot cartridge gun, I think it might be interesting to consider how far the current ML season has strayed from its original intent due to the use of scopes.

And I think that the use of a scope is much more of an advantage in killing a deer than any perceived gain a single shot cartridge gun would have over a ML because of the cartridge gun's faster reloading. As we all know, much deer movement is in low light and there is no comparison in performance under those conditions between the iron sights of the original ML’s and a modern scope that practically 100% of ML's carry nowadays. With iron sights you lose those valuable minutes of deer movement at the beginning and end of each day. You simply can’t see well enough to shoot whereas if you have a good scope you can use every minute of legal light. Doesn’t that conflict with giving users of “Primitive Weapons” extra time in the woods because they are using a weapon that is so ineffective? I sure wouldn’t trade my inline with a Leupold 3x9 for a true Hawken rifle with iron sights to hunt with. \:\)

I think if single shot rifles were allowed during ML season with certain restrictions such as requiring an exposed hammer and chambered for cartridges prior to some date….maybe 1890???.....it would change hardly anything as far as deer numbers harvested. The Sharps rifle company would sell a few more guns but not many people would be willing to spend that kind of money – only a few of us real gun nuts – modern inline ML’s would still dominate the woods during ML season and everybody would be happy.

(Oh and in my experience, most of the time, deer run off when you shoot and miss so neither of these type rifles can be reloaded fast enough to give a hunter a second shot. Again, MOST of the time. \:\) I know that every now and then a deer just stands there.)
This is my point and proposal in a nutshell, and the way Mississippi originally designed theirs


Now residing in MS, I can tell you that MZ's would not dominate the woods. 9 out of 10 people hunting during the "primitive" season here are shooting breech-loading rifles with the most common being 45/70, 35 whelen, and 444 marlin. The main reason I believe to be the ease of use with less up keep and cleaning. It's also a lot easier to obtain "longe-range" accuracy with these cartridges (150-200yds) than a MZ. Most are shooting the Hornady Leverevolution ammo. And there is no argument that could convince me that it is "almost" as fast reloading a MZ as a single shot rifle. Seconds count when trying to get off a second shot on a deer. Gun companies have obviously loved this new regulation. I myself choose to still shoot the smoke-pole because I love the tradition of the TN muzzleloader season and I don't want to cough up the coin for a new gun. I vote to keep the TN season the way it is if my out-of-state vote counts for anything.

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#3074813 - 12/11/12 06:13 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: GOODWIN]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19448
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: GOODWIN
Gun companies have obviously loved this new regulation.

How do you think the push for the reg began?
Deer hunters would have pushed for something they already own, like their regular centerfire deer rifles or slug guns.

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#3074839 - 12/11/12 06:26 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: scn]
8 POINTS OR BETTER
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Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 4095
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 Originally Posted By: scn
No advantage over a muzzleloader? That is a stretch.

While the ballistics of some of those weapons are similar, the ease of reloading and getting off additonal shots is a total game changer from the current muzzleloading season.

Hopefully the Commission will continue to keep it as a muzzleloading season.


X2
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#3074884 - 12/11/12 06:52 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: BSK]
Hunter 257W
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Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 3480
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
You are right that the season was never called a "Primitive Weapon" season but the fact that most ML's at that time were replicas of the originals was the justification used to give ML hunters extra time to hunt without competing with guys using 30-06's, 270's etc.


The original justification for an MZ season had nothing to do with "competition" with other types of weapons. The season was created because virtually no one was going to hunt it! It was looked upon as a season that would produce few if any harvests. In essence, it was all about how much impact it would have (virtually none) on the state's project of restoring the deer herds. The same is true of bow season. It was created because, at the time, no one bow hunted. They could allow a month of bow season because an insignificant number of deer would be harvested.

During restoration, season lengths and dates were always about maximizing hunting opportunity while doing no harm to the deer population.


I disagree with you there. I think it definitely WAS the lesser effective killing ability of traditional ML's compared to modern rifles that justified an exclusive season for ML carrying hunters to hunt early and exclusive of "rifle" season. You may be right though in that a number of people involved in finalizing and approving a ML season did so thinking that nobody would hunt with them anyway. Sort of like a blow gun season, huh?

Ahhh, i could really care less if it changes or stays the same. I'll hunt with what is legal once November rolls around and you couldn't PAY me to hunt earlier than that. \:\)

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#3074930 - 12/11/12 07:12 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
smyrnagc
6 Point


Registered: 12/26/10
Posts: 942
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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
I would like all of you to re-visit the survey site, as after looking at the responses here on this post, I have modified the answer selections after recording the data from the previous answers. Please take time to retake the survey.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Z6R68PS



Would you post the results of the survey so far for us to see where this is trending?
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#3075151 - 12/11/12 09:21 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wes Parrish]
recurve60#
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Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 399
Loc: Rock Island

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contendershooter...since you say ml's are now the same as the weapons you want to see legal why don't you just use one of said muzzleloaders and quit stirring the pot?

What's the point?
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#3075157 - 12/11/12 09:25 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: recurve60#]
recurve60#
4 Point


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 399
Loc: Rock Island

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Do you have stock in or sell said guns you are promoting?

Just sayin...brand new member and show up with surveys to help your your cause.
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#3075162 - 12/11/12 09:30 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: easy45]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10573
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I think the fast reload advantage of the break action single shots is offset by the deer's reaction to the sound of a center fire.

I have no explanation for this but I have had NUMEROUS situations where I have shot a deer out of a group with a mz and the rest of the deer startled and ran 5-10 yds and then stopped and milled around, giving me plenty of time to reload and shoot a second, and if I wanted a third. The sound frequency of a mz must be closer to thunder is the only guess I have.

I have NEVER had a standing still second shot when using a center fire rifle.
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If you can't trust people with freedom, how can you trust them with power ?




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#3075261 - 12/12/12 12:00 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: fishboy1]
stik
"Popcorn"
18 Point


Registered: 03/12/99
Posts: 21339
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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1



I have NEVER had a standing still second shot when using a center fire rifle.


not only did the boy get a standing 2nd shot at the buck he killed last year, he also got a 3rd. each was 20 yds closer than the last. the deer came CLOSER!!! i have had about equal results with m/l and centerfire as far as deer reactions.
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experienced hunters know its not just a bushy white tail, its a big middle finger.

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#3075426 - 12/12/12 07:41 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: stik]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19448
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: stik
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1

I have NEVER had a standing still second shot when using a center fire rifle.

x 2

not only did the boy get a standing 2nd shot at the buck he killed last year, he also got a 3rd. each was 20 yds closer than the last. the deer came CLOSER!!! i have had about equal results with m/l and centerfire as far as deer reactions.

My experiences have been, most of the time, it's not the sound of the shot that spooks the deer, but rather something like the sound or sight of the hunter after the shot (working the bolt action, etc.). Can't say I've seen any difference in the deer's reaction to the sound of a muzzleloader vs. a centerfire, and have often had both hit deer and other deer head my direction after I shot, providing many 2nd opportunities at a non-moving deer only seconds after the initial shot.

Not too long ago, I killed 3 mature does with a .300 Weatherby over a period of about 5 minutes, all between about 50 and 120 yards distance, and all being from the same group of 5 deer, only the two young ones surviving. With exception to the one that simply dropped upon being hit, the others initially ran about 30 yards, then stopped, seemingly wondering why the oldest doe wasn't moving. They all started walking back toward the downed doe. That's when I dropped #2 about 10 yards from #1. They take off running again, but stop again. #3 is dropped at about 120 yards. I couldn't have done this with a muzzleloader because they would have seen me reloading.

I'd say a close gunshot will commonly "startle" a deer, but won't necessarily "spook" them into running off. Of course, a hit deer is reacting to being shot, and will commonly take off running, sometimes with the other deer running with it simply because they're following the lead of what is typically the oldest deer in the group.

But if you'll stay still & quiet, like you're still hunting, after you shoot, you'll be surprised how many deer are not spooked by the sound of the shot.

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#3075432 - 12/12/12 07:48 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wes Parrish]
Wes Parrish
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Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19448
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Because there is less movement required and less time, it will always be easier to get a 2nd deer from a group (or a 2nd shot at a missed deer) using a centerfire instead of a muzzleloader.
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#3075435 - 12/12/12 07:50 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hunter 257W]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
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 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W
You are right that the season was never called a "Primitive Weapon" season but the fact that most ML's at that time were replicas of the originals was the justification used to give ML hunters extra time to hunt without competing with guys using 30-06's, 270's etc.


The original justification for an MZ season had nothing to do with "competition" with other types of weapons. The season was created because virtually no one was going to hunt it! It was looked upon as a season that would produce few if any harvests. In essence, it was all about how much impact it would have (virtually none) on the state's project of restoring the deer herds. The same is true of bow season. It was created because, at the time, no one bow hunted. They could allow a month of bow season because an insignificant number of deer would be harvested.

During restoration, season lengths and dates were always about maximizing hunting opportunity while doing no harm to the deer population.


I disagree with you there. I think it definitely WAS the lesser effective killing ability of traditional ML's compared to modern rifles that justified an exclusive season for ML carrying hunters to hunt early and exclusive of "rifle" season.


Ask some of the TWRA guys that were around at the time. The primary factor used in decisions about season length were always "How will it affect harvest totals." In essence, how many deer will be killed and will that significantly slow the deer population restoration effort? To be honest, harvest totals are still a big factor in any season/bag-limit discussion, although we are well past restoration in much of the state. Now it is about protecting what has been restored.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3075448 - 12/12/12 07:59 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wes Parrish]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: stik
 Originally Posted By: fishboy1

I have NEVER had a standing still second shot when using a center fire rifle.

x 2

not only did the boy get a standing 2nd shot at the buck he killed last year, he also got a 3rd. each was 20 yds closer than the last. the deer came CLOSER!!! i have had about equal results with m/l and centerfire as far as deer reactions.

My experiences have been, most of the time, it's not the sound of the shot that spooks the deer, but rather something like the sound or sight of the hunter after the shot (working the bolt action, etc.). Can't say I've seen any difference in the deer's reaction to the sound of a muzzleloader vs. a centerfire, and have often had both hit deer and other deer head my direction after I shot, providing many 2nd opportunities at a non-moving deer only seconds after the initial shot.

Not too long ago, I killed 3 mature does with a .300 Weatherby over a period of about 5 minutes, all between about 50 and 120 yards distance, and all being from the same group of 5 deer, only the two young ones surviving. With exception to the one that simply dropped upon being hit, the others initially ran about 30 yards, then stopped, seemingly wondering why the oldest doe wasn't moving. They all started walking back toward the downed doe. That's when I dropped #2 about 10 yards from #1. They take off running again, but stop again. #3 is dropped at about 120 yards. I couldn't have done this with a muzzleloader because they would have seen me reloading.

I'd say a close gunshot will commonly "startle" a deer, but won't necessarily "spook" them into running off. Of course, a hit deer is reacting to being shot, and will commonly take off running, sometimes with the other deer running with it simply because they're following the lead of what is typically the oldest deer in the group.

But if you'll stay still & quiet, like you're still hunting, after you shoot, you'll be surprised how many deer are not spooked by the sound of the shot.
it seems like also that it depends on the terrain that you fire the shot towards...i have shot at deer in a field and had other deer run the opposite way, and the field had rolling inclines in it, whereas I have shot at deer on hillsides in woods, where the hollow acts like a bowl almost and the sound stays contained in that area versus echoing continuous as it does on a hill top or across a field, and the deer came towards me.

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#3075459 - 12/12/12 08:08 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: GOODWIN]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: GOODWIN
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
 Originally Posted By: Hunter 257W

This has been an interesting discussion but rather than focusing on the speed of reloading a ML vs. single shot cartridge gun, I think it might be interesting to consider how far the current ML season has strayed from its original intent due to the use of scopes.

And I think that the use of a scope is much more of an advantage in killing a deer than any perceived gain a single shot cartridge gun would have over a ML because of the cartridge gun's faster reloading. As we all know, much deer movement is in low light and there is no comparison in performance under those conditions between the iron sights of the original ML’s and a modern scope that practically 100% of ML's carry nowadays. With iron sights you lose those valuable minutes of deer movement at the beginning and end of each day. You simply can’t see well enough to shoot whereas if you have a good scope you can use every minute of legal light. Doesn’t that conflict with giving users of “Primitive Weapons” extra time in the woods because they are using a weapon that is so ineffective? I sure wouldn’t trade my inline with a Leupold 3x9 for a true Hawken rifle with iron sights to hunt with. \:\)

I think if single shot rifles were allowed during ML season with certain restrictions such as requiring an exposed hammer and chambered for cartridges prior to some date….maybe 1890???.....it would change hardly anything as far as deer numbers harvested. The Sharps rifle company would sell a few more guns but not many people would be willing to spend that kind of money – only a few of us real gun nuts – modern inline ML’s would still dominate the woods during ML season and everybody would be happy.

(Oh and in my experience, most of the time, deer run off when you shoot and miss so neither of these type rifles can be reloaded fast enough to give a hunter a second shot. Again, MOST of the time. \:\) I know that every now and then a deer just stands there.)
This is my point and proposal in a nutshell, and the way Mississippi originally designed theirs


Now residing in MS, I can tell you that MZ's would not dominate the woods. 9 out of 10 people hunting during the "primitive" season here are shooting breech-loading rifles with the most common being 45/70, 35 whelen, and 444 marlin. The main reason I believe to be the ease of use with less up keep and cleaning. It's also a lot easier to obtain "longe-range" accuracy with these cartridges (150-200yds) than a MZ. Most are shooting the Hornady Leverevolution ammo. And there is no argument that could convince me that it is "almost" as fast reloading a MZ as a single shot rifle. Seconds count when trying to get off a second shot on a deer. Gun companies have obviously loved this new regulation. I myself choose to still shoot the smoke-pole because I love the tradition of the TN muzzleloader season and I don't want to cough up the coin for a new gun. I vote to keep the TN season the way it is if my out-of-state vote counts for anything.
A lot of it does have to do with cleaning, and the ease of loading, but lets all be honest here...other than those who are using the traditional muzzleloaders like flintlocks or percussion, who uses an inline to hold onto tradition? We use them because their ignition is more reliable, they shoot better, are able to be scoped easier, shoot more powerful loads, and with the inline Savage like I have, you can even shoot smokeless powder. So in essence compared to other single shots, all that is missing is the brass case.

That is my whole justification of this proposal. Why keep the traditional muzzleloader season when non-traditional in-lines dominate the woods, and your essentially shooting a "caseless" centerfire rifle... Hence adding single shot shotguns and rifles of .35 caliber or larger won't make much difference.

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#3075463 - 12/12/12 08:11 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2979
Loc: Lawrence Co.

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It's never been Traditional Muzzleloader season. Just Muzzleloader season. Adding single shot rifles to the mix greatly increases reloading time. So if you want to go to centerfire cartridges we might as well just open rifle season the first Saturday of November and be done with it.
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#3075469 - 12/12/12 08:22 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
It's never been Traditional Muzzleloader season. Just Muzzleloader season. Adding single shot rifles to the mix greatly increases reloading time. So if you want to go to centerfire cartridges we might as well just open rifle season the first Saturday of November and be done with it.


Agreed. In fact, I like that idea! ;\)
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3075476 - 12/12/12 08:26 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: BSK]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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survey results so far as of 8:27AM CST on 12/12/12:

keep it the way it is: 51%

add use of shotguns with muzzleloaders: 5%

add use of handguns and shotguns with muzzleloaders: 5%

add use of single shot rifles, handguns and shotguns with muzzleloaders 35%

make current muzzleloader season primitive muzzleloaders only and move in-lines to modern gun 2%

create a January primitive season 2%

keep the answers coming as I am going to keep the survey up thru the second week of January to make it as fair and accurate as possible before I do my presentation. I think I will include some data on the all the people who are advocating the any weapon season, and this may be a middle ground that is fair to our bow hunters and will not effect the remainder of the season.

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#3075478 - 12/12/12 08:30 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2979
Loc: Lawrence Co.

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
adding single shot shotguns and rifles of .35 caliber or larger won't make much difference.

Do you have any idea how powerful a 35 Whelen is? If we'd of had single shots in 35 Whelen in the Civil War it would have lasted all of 45 mins. And I guarantee we'd have a different President right now
_________________________
Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

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#3075518 - 12/12/12 09:00 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
adding single shot shotguns and rifles of .35 caliber or larger won't make much difference.

Do you have any idea how powerful a 35 Whelen is? If we'd of had single shots in 35 Whelen in the Civil War it would have lasted all of 45 mins. And I guarantee we'd have a different President right now
yes, I know about the 35 Whelen, how it was developed by Col. Townsend Whelen as a wildcat, the parent cartridge is a 30-06 case, etc, etc... I am a gun nut, have been shooting since I was 8 and hunting since I was 10, and buy guns every chance I get, and I love to study the ballistics, the application, everything about different guns and cartridges.

That being said, I would not propose going as far as what Louisiana and Mississippi did, as that does add a distinct advantage over a smokepole, but other than a minimal edge on reloading, adding single shot shotguns with slugs, which are not ballistically superior to modern inline loads, nor adding your popular handgun cartridges, which are not ballistically superior to modern inline loads, or the cartridges that were originally black powder and now smokeless, as they are downloaded to allow them to be fired in older firearms. Here is a list of common available ones that would be allowed under my proposal:

38-40
38-55
44-40
45 Colt
45-70

One way to address the issue of using the higher powered cartridges is require them to be straight walled "brush gun" calibers or originally created as a black powder cartridge. That is why I posted this on here in the first place is to get feedback, and/or tweaks.

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#3075530 - 12/12/12 09:08 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
Outdoor Enthusiast
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Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 1002
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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
survey results so far as of 8:27AM CST on 12/12/12:

keep it the way it is: 51%

add use of shotguns with muzzleloaders: 5%

add use of handguns and shotguns with muzzleloaders: 5%

add use of single shot rifles, handguns and shotguns with muzzleloaders 35%

make current muzzleloader season primitive muzzleloaders only and move in-lines to modern gun 2%

create a January primitive season 2%

keep the answers coming as I am going to keep the survey up thru the second week of January to make it as fair and accurate as possible before I do my presentation. I think I will include some data on the all the people who are advocating the any weapon season, and this may be a middle ground that is fair to our bow hunters and will not effect the remainder of the season.


I don't see the option for "Make MZ season A/M/R". I bet you might find quite a few in support of opening all weapons the first Saturday in November.

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#3075606 - 12/12/12 09:57 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19448
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
. . . . . if you want to go to centerfire cartridges we might as well just open rifle season the first Saturday of November and be done with it.

I agree, although not saying I want to make any weapon changes at all. But when & if we do, it shouldn't be done in a manner where most existing deer hunters would have to purchase a new weapon to participate.

Just looking from a large & broad perspective, should there be any weapon changes with our TN muzzleloading season, it probably should be to change it from "muzzleloader" to "shotgun/muzzleloader" season. This would cater more to the hunters than the special interests.

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#3075662 - 12/12/12 10:42 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wes Parrish]
chiggerbit
Spike


Registered: 09/16/11
Posts: 72
Loc: Lebanon, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
...Just looking from a large & broad perspective, should there be any weapon changes with our TN muzzleloading season, it probably should be to change it from "muzzleloader" to "shotgun/muzzleloader" season. This would cater more to the hunters than the special interests.


Bad idea as well in my humble opinion. Slugs and shotguns is rather expensive at it's best, and relatively inaccurate (by modern standards) and flinch-encouraging at it's worst.

Also, regarding hunting impact, lots of chasing goes on during the TN MUZZLELOADER season, and add shotguns to the mix and you're gonna have folks taking a LOT more shots.... and multiple shots at that. I started deer hunting in southern Illinois, and the morning of the shotgun opener sounded like a dove shoot had commenced. I don't want that here. I don't want more wounded deer in the woods either, and yes, there will be.

But yes, I love muzzleloaders for deer hunting. They're capable of incredible accuracy, and I think they encourage hunters to wait for high-percentage, responsible and ethical shots. So if you disregard special interests and all the arguments for a minute, it just makes sense that muzzleloading season is good prep for the following rifle season. It's kind of hard to take accuracy for granted and take low-percentage shots when you only have one.

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#3075801 - 12/12/12 12:30 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wes Parrish]
Outdoor Enthusiast
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Registered: 12/04/07
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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
. . . . . if you want to go to centerfire cartridges we might as well just open rifle season the first Saturday of November and be done with it.

I agree, although not saying I want to make any weapon changes at all. But when & if we do, it shouldn't be done in a manner where most existing deer hunters would have to purchase a new weapon to participate.
Just looking from a large & broad perspective, should there be any weapon changes with our TN muzzleloading season, it probably should be to change it from "muzzleloader" to "shotgun/muzzleloader" season. This would cater more to the hunters than the special interests.


That sounds like a "tax". ;\) And you know how most of us feel about new taxes.

I would prefer "Archery/Muzzleloader/rifle" rather than Mz/shotgun.

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#3075805 - 12/12/12 12:32 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: chiggerbit]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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Your completely wrong in regards to shotguns. You can get a New England Firearms/Harrington and Richardson single shot 12 or 20 ga with a rifled barrel for just over a couple hundred bucks, and if you have a single shot NEF or H&R shotgun or rifle, you can have a barrel placed on yours for about 80.00 or less.

They shoot extremely well, and with the heft, they weigh more than most muzzleloaders and the recoil is not all that bad. I have a Weatherby PA-459 tactical shotgun that is lightweight and slugs do kick but not overly bad...as long as you have a good recoil pad, and most companies now supply good ones, your fine. In regards to muzzleloader accuracy and all of the people on here who are stating the in-lines are just as traditional as any other muzzleloader, please reference this article:

Long-Range Muzzleloading
The accuracy and effective reach of modern blackpowder rifles has benefited greatly from recent developments in the industry.

By Mark Ness, American Hunter Magazine

11/20/2012
My first experience with muzzleloader hunting occurred in the 1980s when my father purchased two Hawken caplock rifles. The muzzleloading deer season was relatively new and started before the regular firearm season, giving hunters an early start before the deer got spooky.
My father was a competitive pistol shooter in the Army and taught me to shoot a pistol before any other type of firearm. We had entered a new type of shooting that neither one of us was familiar with. I remember going to the range and shooting with percussion caps, loose power and lead bullets. At 50 yards our groups were marginal and beyond 50 we couldn’t get our shots to group at all. We never did harvest any deer using this combo and I grew disenchanted with smokepole hunting.
That changed in 2002 when the Marriott Ranch in Virginia invited me to hunt whitetail deer on their property. For the first time ever, they were opening up the Ranch for guided hunts, a great opportunity but with one catch—the invitation was for muzzleloader season. I consulted with my colleague John Zent from NRA Publications, and he updated me on developments that had transformed muzzleloading, including Pyrodex pellets, sabot bullets and the use of rifle scopes, all of which greatly enhanced the accuracy and effective reach of modern blackpowder rifles. Following John’s suggestions, I was able to kill an 8-point buck at nearly 100 yards.
Since then I’ve been hooked on muzzleloader hunting, purchasing new rifles, mounting scopes on them and trying out different sabot bullets. Accuracy was good out to 100 yards. But in a lot of instances I would see game beyond 100 yards and would not take a shot because I was unsure of the bullet drop.
Thus began my quest to find muzzleloading equipment capable of shooting at longer ranges. I settled on a .50-cal. T/C Omega rifle with a stainless steel barrel. I like the idea of a stainless steel barrel with an action that dropped from the bottom and one that is not hinged. My reasoning was that it would be more rugged and thus more accurate.
For sights I opted for a Leupold UltimateSlam scope with the BDC reticle. The scope adjusts to match the trajectories of different propellant charges, as well as a setting for shotgun slugs. You sight-in at 100 yards and there are successive drop-point crosshairs for 150, 200, 250 and 300 yards.
I settled on a load consisting of three .50-cal. Pyrodex pellets, a 209 primer and the Barnes 250-gr. Spit-Fire TMZ bullet that has a tapering, semi-spitzer ogive optimal to long-range performance. I zeroed my Omega at 100 yards, and at 200 yards my shots impacted only a few inches below point of aim. I took this combo to the Marriott Ranch and harvested a doe at 211 yards and a black bear at 158 yards using the appropriate aiming points. I was so impressed with the Leupold scope that I reviewed it.
The following year NRA Secretary Jim Land and I were sighting-in during late summer in preparation for the upcoming season, but I was unable to get consistent grouping. Upon examining the sabots, I could see they were being blown apart because of excessive pressure. Presuming this was caused by the high summertime temperature (upper 80s), I switched to two pellets and once again my Omega delivered tight groups. Using the Leupold scope’s two-pellet setting, shots were dead on at 200 yards. Since then I have hunted exclusively with two 50-gr. pellets, a loading that is still plenty accurate at longer distances but which produces less recoil.
I just returned from a deer hunt on the Marriott Ranch and was not disappointed with my rifle’s long-range performance as I was able to harvest the one of the biggest bucks ever taken there at 213 yards using the Leupold’s 200-yard dot. The deer’s actual weight was 238 lbs. before field dressing and it had 10 points. On the last morning I harvested a turkey at 100 yards, although not a great distance, it nonetheless required an accurate shot at that small target.
With all the improvements in rifles, scopes, bullets and powder, today’s muzzleloading rifles rival the accuracy of many center-fires out to 200 yards and possibly even farther. Hunters who gear up accordingly and put in the range time to master their equipment, are not only able to extend their seasons, but can count on long-range performance when an opportunity comes along.

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#3075810 - 12/12/12 12:37 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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so taking 200+ yards shots with the new BDC scopes that everyone is making now, is more traditional and more difficult to use than a good ole single shot bead sighted shotgun with a slug or even one with open sights or an equal scope.hahahahahahahahahaha what a joke...
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#3075816 - 12/12/12 12:40 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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Here is one other article to reference that compares a Benelli shotgun to a muzzleloader in a shootout for accuracy, distance, and ammo comparasion, but overall the muzzleloader gets further range due to the higher velocity and shoots somewhat tighter groups

From http://www.americanhunter.org/articles/shotgun-or-muzzleloader/ on 08/29/2012

Shotgun or Muzzleloader?

The choices hunters face when hunting whitetails where rifles are not an option can be confounding.

By Bryce M. Towsley, Field Editor



It’s a choice every hunter dreads, yet still hopes he will encounter someday.

I had been watching a huge buck for two days in a row. His antlers were an unusually bright white and so big he looked like something out of a Dr. Seuss book.

I had seen him twice the morning before; both times he was out of range. This morning, as the sun lit up south-central Iowa, he was feeding out in a bean field 360 yards from my stand, much too far for my firearm. Within a few minutes of light’s arrival, he drifted off into the woods. But, now there was another buck in the cornfield to my right, in range and coming closer. He was big, not a match for the white-horned buck, but big.

He was also available.

So far it had not been my best year of deer hunting. I tried, but it seemed like the world was aligned against me. A couple of early hunts were just unmitigated disasters and ended with no shots fired. My home state, Vermont, had experienced one of the snowiest winters on record and the winter kill was worse than anybody imagined. It was like an alien spaceship had run a giant vacuum cleaner around the woods and sucked up most of the deer. There were very few tracks and droppings and the mast crop lay rotting and uneaten on the ground. Still, I managed to locate the biggest buck I have seen in 45 years of hunting in Vermont. He came from a direction I didn’t expect and I had to climb a few feet up a steep bank and poke my rifle through some brush and over a blowdown. It was an amateur mistake, one I should never have made; my scope cleared the blowdown while my bullet did not. It clipped the top of the log and sailed off to that place where misbehaving bullets go to die.

That shot still keeps me up at night.

So here I was, late in the year and venison-free. I was hunting with my good friend Mike Mattly, who is the PR director for Pradco, on his farm in Iowa. Faithful readers may remember “The Bully Buck” I wrote about in American Hunter a couple years ago. I shot him in the last hours of the last day in the most brutal cold and wind I have ever experienced while deer hunting. I could see the hay bale I used to block the wind that day, just 50 yards from my current stand. I shot another very nice 9-point buck less than 200 yards from here a few years before that. His photo and story also graced these pages. This ground had been generous to me but I wondered if it was trying to send a message.

I turned to look again at the buck feeding in my direction. As the morning light grew stronger, I was beginning to see more detail as he moved through the brown, standing corn that filled the steep hillside and his dark antlers appeared to grow larger. I watched him and thought about that white-horned giant. Then I said out loud, “Go away before I shoot you!”

But not loud enough for him to hear. I am not completely insane. Still, as if he heard, he disappeared for a while and I breathed a sigh of relief. The irony of experiencing relief when a world-class buck walks off didn’t occur to me until later.

Well, perhaps irony is not as good a word as stupidity, particularly considering the tough year I was having.

When he reappeared the light was much better and he had grown considerably larger antlers. Must’ve been the corn diet.

Through the clear lenses of my Swarovski binocular I could see that he was a true 12-point buck. While the front point on each side was broken off, the bases remained. In all my years of hunting whitetails just about every place they live, and in shooting what is probably far more than my fair share, I had never shot a true 12-point, main-frame, whitetail buck. I have lots of 10s with an extra couple of points, but a clean, typical 12-point has eluded me and I was a bit obsessed with finding one. Of course the deer hunting gods exposed their usual cruelty with the broken tines, but I could live with that.

I made a decision: This was the buck I truly wanted. I took my eyes off him for a moment to reach behind me for my gun and when I looked back he had his head down feeding in the cornfield about 75 yards away. Just before the final slack came out of the trigger I realized something was wrong, so I waited. When he picked up his head, the buck morphed into a huge doe.

Twenty minutes ago I was telling him to run away, now I was trying not to lose my breakfast out the blind’s window. The disappointment turned me numb. But, over the years of hunting I have learned that when you are not sure what to do, it’s best to do nothing. So I waited and watched.

Ten minutes later a cornstalk shook a little, even though there was no wind. I focused the binoc and could see an antler tine tapping it as the buck struggled with a cob he had pinned with his front feet. It took about three eons of waiting, but finally he abandoned that ear and moved into an open row. When his shoulder was covered by the crosshairs, I finished my interrupted date with the trigger.

In a lot of places deer hunters now have the choice I faced on this hunt. No, not the choice to shoot the really big buck in front of me or hold out for the really, really big buck that may or may not show up later, but the dilemma of using a shotgun or muzzleloader.

In all the years I have hunted in south-central Iowa, this buck was a game-changer. Until then I had shot all my deer there with a muzzleloader. The wide 12-point fell to a Benelli and the new Federal Trophy Copper 12-gauge slug. In fact, I was using engineering samples from Federal and it was one of the first deer ever taken with that new slug.

Which Gun?
So, how do you choose between a shotgun or muzzleloader? Which is the best option? There are pros and cons to each. The most obvious: A shotgun carries more than one shot so it’s very fast on the reload. In fact, if you’re using a Benelli Super Black Eagle semi-auto like I was, the gun will be ready for the next shot in about .15 second. I have gotten pretty good at reloading a muzzleloader over the years, but I am not that fast.

Compared to a muzzleloader, a shotgun does not have to be cleaned every time you shoot it or risk corrosion destroying the firearm. That’s a big plus for anybody but a masochist with a gun-cleaning fetish. Shotguns are much more reliable in wet weather than a muzzleloader. If you have not experienced the frustration and rage of a muzzleloader failing to fire at a deer while hunting in the rain, well then I’ll wager you have not hunted with them much. Trust me, it will happen, sooner or later it gets everybody.

Accuracy—I picked at random 30, three-shot, 100-yard groups from slugs and slug guns I have tested for the NRA over the past few years. I included all the popular, top-of-the-line, 12-gauge sabot slugs and several different shotguns. I came up with an average 100-yard, three-shot group size of 2.54 inches.

I looked at an equal number of three-shot, 100-yard muzzleloader groups with several rifles. These included a multitude of different rifles, bullets, propellants and propellant charges. The average for those groups is 2.24 inches. With a difference of only .3 inch that’s pretty much a dead heat. To be honest I was surprised. I thought the muzzleloader would kick the shotgun’s butt in accuracy, but the numbers don’t lie.

Of course, a shooter can choose an accurate firearm and then experiment with different loads or ammo until he finds the one that is the most accurate and probably cut those numbers significantly. But that would tell us nothing. This is a relatively large sample picked at random and it says the muzzleloader has a slight advantage in accuracy, but very slight.

Shotgun slugs have changed and evolved over the past few decades so that the modern sabot slug is now very similar to the modern sabot muzzleloader bullet. The new Federal 300-grain Trophy Copper shotgun slug is an expanding, solid copper bullet with a polymer tip and represents the leading edge of slug technology. Jessica Stevens at Barnes Bullets tells me that their bestselling muzzleloader bullet is the 250-grain Spitfire T-EZ. So, let’s look at the external and terminal ballistics of these two for comparison.

Velocity—The 3-inch version of the Trophy Copper slug has a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2000 fps. With three 50-grain Pyrodex pellets the Barnes 250-grain bullet has an MV of 2197 fps. The slug has 1451 fps remaining at 150 yards and 1305 fps at 200 yards. The muzzleloader, which started with almost 200 fps more than the slug, has 1628 fps remaining at 150 yards and 1467 fps at 200 yards. Slight advantage for the muzzleloader.

Bullet Path—With a 100-yard zero the slug is 3.93 inches below the line of sight at 150 yards and 11.99 inches low at 200 yards. The muzzleloader bullet fares a little better. It’s 3.02 inches below the line of sight at 150 and 9.33 at 200 yards. So, in bullet path, the muzzleloader retains a very slight edge over the slug gun. This is due primarily to the higher velocities.

Energy—The slug has 2,665 ft.-lbs. at the muzzle; 1,744 ft.-lbs. at 100 yards; 1,404 at 150 yards; and 1,135 at 200 yards. The muzzleloader has 2,680 ft.-lbs. at the muzzle; 1,806 ft.-lbs. at 100 yards; 1,472 at 150 yards; and 1,195 at 200 yards. While both retain enough energy to reliably kill a whitetail out to 200 yards, the muzzleloader does have a very slight advantage in energy over the slug—again due to the higher velocities, as energy is tied exponentially to velocity.

Shotgun or Muzzleloader? (Page 2)

The choices hunters face when hunting whitetails where rifles are not an option can be confounding.

By Bryce M. Towsley, Field Editor


Study External Ballistics

Thanks to external ballistics, the muzzleloader gains a slight edge over the shotgun, but much less than most hunters believe.

Once we go past 200 yards with either of these modern firearms, things start changing very fast. The acceleration of gravity causes the bullet to drop faster and faster as the range increases. The drop below the line of sight for the first 200 yards is more than doubled in the next 50 yards. In other words, relative to line of sight, the bullets drop more from 200 to 250 yards than they did from zero to 200 yards. It just gets worse from there. At 300 yards, the drop is nearly four times as much as it was at 200 yards. Also, by 250 yards both bullets have fallen below the 1,000 ft.-lb. threshold that conventional wisdom holds is the minimum for whitetail deer.

The bottom line is ballistics don’t lie, and they state that for any ethical hunter, 200 yards is about the limit of performance for a modern slug gun or modern muzzleloader. I know that’s not what a lot of hunters believe or have been told, but the facts are the facts. Consistently putting a bullet in the kill zone on a whitetail with either of these guns past 200 yards is going to exceed the abilities of the vast majority of hunters. Once we get a little beyond that, it will exceed the limits of the guns.

The rate of bullet drop is rising exponentially so that even a minor error in range calculation can be critical. The farther the distance to the target, the faster the bullet is dropping so the problem is compounded with every yard of distance added.

Say we have a 6-inch kill zone, which is typical for shooting deer. That means 3 inches in any direction can put you out of the zone. Three inches is how much the shotgun slug drops between 250 and 259 yards. (The muzzleloader is a little better; it takes 18 additional yards past 250 to drop 3 more inches—again, due to the extra velocity from the three-pellet load and lighter bullet.)

So with the shotgun a miscalculation of less than 10 yards can cause you to wound or miss, even if everything else is perfect. But, perfection is impossible. By now the accuracy potential of the guns is starting to grow so large that under field conditions it will be mathematically impossible to ensure a kill zone hit 100 percent of the time. The 2.54-inch group size at 100 yards increases to 6.35 inches at 250 yards, larger than the kill zone. Discounting wind and human error, a 10-yard miscalculation and the simple accuracy of the gun can put the impact off more than 7 inches.

With a mild 10 mph wind the slug has drifted more than 21 inches at 250 yards. A 15 mph wind, just 5 mph more, adds 10.6 inches to that. Can you judge the wind with that kind of precision? I know I can’t. Is it 10 mph or 15 mph? Is it a perfect 90-degree angle or is it more like 45 degrees? Is the wind the same velocity and direction all the way to the target?

If the bullet drifts 32 inches at 90 degrees, how much will it drift if the wind is at 45 degrees? (The answer is 15.2 inches, but I had to go to a computer to figure that out.) So, do you hold 21 inches to the wind or 32 inches or 15 inches? Or maybe you are just trying to shoot too far in this wind?

Even without the wind, it all just falls apart past 200 yards. Use your hunting skill; get closer. That’s the concept of a shotgun or muzzleloader anyway.

Terminal ballistics—what happens after the bullet hits the deer—are much tougher to evaluate. The slug measures .500 inch, which is slightly larger than a muzzleloader bullet at .451 inch, which means the slug has a slightly larger frontal diameter. With a non-expanding bullet the difference might matter. But, they are both expanding bullets. That means the bullet design and impact velocity will control the final frontal diameter. They both expand to a large diameter. This is important for two reasons. One is that with the relatively low velocity of a muzzleloader or shotgun the bullets rely on penetration and frontal diameter to cause tissue damage. The bullet must have enough energy stored to push it through the game in its expanded form. I have shot a lot of deer with monolithic, expanding slugs and muzzleloader bullets. It is rare to recover either from a dead deer. When I do, it is usually from a finishing shot when the deer is down or with an end-to-end frontal shot. With most broadside shots the bullet will exit. So, I can’t see that there is an advantage one way or the other with either of these in deer hunting. Of course, we are looking at only a small representation of the types of muzzleloader bullets or slugs that are on the market. A lead-core, thin-jacket bullet or slug might not exit. However, a total comparison of the terminal ballistics is for another article. For now, I think it’s safe to say that with similar style projectiles, the two are just about dead even for terminal ballistics while hunting whitetails.

I had thought that a clear winner would emerge here, but that’s not the case. I think it boils down to your hunting style, the firearms that interest you most and which one you trust. As a gun guy who loves to experiment, I see that as a half-full glass. On my hunt I can pick a shotgun or muzzleloader with the full confidence that either one is well suited for hunting big whitetail bucks.

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#3075823 - 12/12/12 12:43 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: recurve60#]
Outdoor Enthusiast
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Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 1002
Loc: Carthage, TN

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 Originally Posted By: recurve60#
Do you have stock in or sell said guns you are promoting?

Just sayin...brand new member and show up with surveys to help your your cause.


^^I am curious too.

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#3075846 - 12/12/12 12:53 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Outdoor Enthusiast]
strutandrut
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Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 29042
Loc: signal mountain

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So, what do y'all think about the reintroduction of Elk?

_________________________
Any day above ground is a good day.

Why do I carry a gun? Because cops weigh too much to carry and are difficult to conceal.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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#3075853 - 12/12/12 12:56 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Outdoor Enthusiast]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: Outdoor Enthusiast
 Originally Posted By: recurve60#
Do you have stock in or sell said guns you are promoting?

Just sayin...brand new member and show up with surveys to help your your cause.


^^I am curious too.
No, the only gun stock I own is Ruger and their firearms would not qualify, with maybe the exception of the Ruger single shot, but at near $1,000 each compared to your $300.00 handi-rifle, it seems like a no-brainier on that choice.

Why are the old dogs on here so up on new members asking questions or posting?

My premise was explained quite thoroughly but I will recap for those who have not read the entire thread. I am a hunter, I love to hunt and love the outdoors. I work a lot just like 99% of everyone else on here, and when I get the random change to go hunting I would like to carry a weapon that would provide me the best chance of acquiring the game I am pursuing. I also think about other hunters needs and challenges, ways to get more people into hunting and keeping hunters in the game, because let's face it, the way things are going now, hunting is dying out in some ways.

I benefit in no way in the allowance of single shot rifles, shotguns and handguns other than it gives additional choices for hunters to enjoy a time honored past time.

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#3075855 - 12/12/12 12:57 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: strutandrut]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: strutandrut
So, what do y'all think about the reintroduction of Elk?



hope they thrive and spread

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#3075861 - 12/12/12 12:58 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
 Originally Posted By: Outdoor Enthusiast
 Originally Posted By: recurve60#
Do you have stock in or sell said guns you are promoting?

Just sayin...brand new member and show up with surveys to help your your cause.


^^I am curious too.
No, the only gun stock I own is Ruger and their firearms would not qualify, with maybe the exception of the Ruger single shot, but at near $1,000 each compared to your $300.00 handi-rifle, it seems like a no-brainier on that choice.

Why are the old dogs on here so up on new members asking questions or posting?

My premise was explained quite thoroughly but I will recap for those who have not read the entire thread. I am a hunter, I love to hunt and love the outdoors. I work a lot just like 99% of everyone else on here, and when I get the random change to go hunting I would like to carry a weapon that would provide me the best chance of acquiring the game I am pursuing. I also think about other hunters needs and challenges, ways to get more people into hunting and keeping hunters in the game, because let's face it, the way things are going now, hunting is dying out in some ways.

I benefit in no way in the allowance of single shot rifles, shotguns and handguns other than it gives additional choices for hunters to enjoy a time honored past time.
and the fact that I am actually considering other hunters opinions before presenting this to the TWRA commission in Feb.

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#3076012 - 12/12/12 02:31 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
Rubberduck270
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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
and the fact that I am actually considering other hunters opinions before presenting this to the TWRA commission in Feb.

When and where is this going to take place? I might have to make a trip to see your little Presentation on this matter.
_________________________
Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

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#3076019 - 12/12/12 02:37 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2979
Loc: Lawrence Co.

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
I would like to carry a weapon that would provide me the best chance of acquiring the game I am pursuing. I also think about other hunters needs and challenges, ways to get more people into hunting and keeping hunters in the game, because let's face it, the way things are going now, hunting is dying out in some ways.

Then why not just open rifle season the first Saturday of November and do away with ML season all together?
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Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

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#3076029 - 12/12/12 02:41 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19448
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
I would like to carry a weapon that would provide me the best chance of acquiring the game I am pursuing. I also think about other hunters needs and challenges . . . . . . . .

Then why not just open rifle season the first Saturday of November and do away with ML season all together?

x 2

Yep.
Either leave it as "muzzleloader" season, or change it to "deer season, any weapon". No need to require so many other hunters to purchase a new weapon to participate. Most already have a centerfire rifle or a shotgun for deer hunting, but almost none have a single-shot centerfire.

And again, as we carefully consider what we wish for, it would be a reasonable expectation that a lowering of annual deer limits (both antlered & antlerless) would coincide with any significant increase in hunting days with more effective weapons (at least in the coming year or two).

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#3076081 - 12/12/12 03:12 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
Ahuntin1
4 Point


Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 299
Loc: Collierville, TN

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I think TWRA has tweaked our seasons to near perfection. Our system is way better than mississipi's. Their early premative weapon season is antlerless and they break rifle season in the middle.
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#3076109 - 12/12/12 03:33 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
SES
8 Point


Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 1301
Loc: Corryton, Tn

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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
and the fact that I am actually considering other hunters opinions before presenting this to the TWRA commission in Feb.

When and where is this going to take place? I might have to make a trip to see your little Presentation on this matter.
I hope you have a lot of spare time. Unless they shut him down, he could be up there a while. Very opinionated individual.

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#3076120 - 12/12/12 03:37 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: SES]
Rubberduck270
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Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2979
Loc: Lawrence Co.

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 Originally Posted By: SES
I hope you have a lot of spare time. Unless they shut him down, he could be up there a while. Very opinionated individual.

Lol. Only point I've seen him make is "lets make it easier and more accessible to hunt by adding shotguns and slow-poke black powder cartridges".
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Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

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#3076231 - 12/12/12 04:44 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wes Parrish]
timberjack86
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Registered: 06/20/11
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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: scn
Hopefully the Commission will continue to keep it as a muzzleloading season.

And/or just make it "any" weapon.

What I don't want to see is any more "special" weapons segments, promoted more by manufacturers/sellers of these than by hunter demand.

Why should we demand hunters go out and buy a new "weapon" so they can participate in better hunting opportunity?

If hunting opportunity can be expanded, then let's do it with weapons most deer hunters already own. What we don't need to do is put some special weapons enthusiasts on a pedestal, and continue this dividing of hunters.
x1000!!!
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#3076504 - 12/12/12 07:32 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
smyrnagc
6 Point


Registered: 12/26/10
Posts: 942
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
survey results so far as of 8:27AM CST on 12/12/12:

keep it the way it is: 51%

add use of shotguns with muzzleloaders: 5%

add use of handguns and shotguns with muzzleloaders: 5%

add use of single shot rifles, handguns and shotguns with muzzleloaders 35%

make current muzzleloader season primitive muzzleloaders only and move in-lines to modern gun 2%

create a January primitive season 2%

keep the answers coming as I am going to keep the survey up thru the second week of January to make it as fair and accurate as possible before I do my presentation. I think I will include some data on the all the people who are advocating the any weapon season, and this may be a middle ground that is fair to our bow hunters and will not effect the remainder of the season.


My question would be, will you change the approach to your presentation based on your (this) survey results? It is apparent that the majority of your responses (51% which is a majority) are not in favor of any change. That 51% could be low if not all of the negative commentor's voted.

You also state "I think I will include some data on all the people who are advocating the any weapon season". Will you also include in your presentation that a majority of those that took the survey on tndeer voted to leave it as is?
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#3076540 - 12/12/12 07:52 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: smyrnagc]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12090
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Is there a TnDeer award for the longest cut and paste ??
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#3076871 - 12/13/12 12:28 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
recurve60#
4 Point


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 399
Loc: Rock Island

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
 Originally Posted By: Outdoor Enthusiast
 Originally Posted By: recurve60#
Do you have stock in or sell said guns you are promoting?

Just sayin...brand new member and show up with surveys to help your your cause.


^^I am curious too.
No, the only gun stock I own is Ruger and their firearms would not qualify, with maybe the exception of the Ruger single shot, but at near $1,000 each compared to your $300.00 handi-rifle, it seems like a no-brainier on that choice.

Why are the old dogs on here so up on new members asking questions or posting?

My premise was explained quite thoroughly but I will recap for those who have not read the entire thread. I am a hunter, I love to hunt and love the outdoors. I work a lot just like 99% of everyone else on here, and when I get the random change to go hunting I would like to carry a weapon that would provide me the best chance of acquiring the game I am pursuing. I also think about other hunters needs and challenges, ways to get more people into hunting and keeping hunters in the game, because let's face it, the way things are going now, hunting is dying out in some ways.

I benefit in no way in the allowance of single shot rifles, shotguns and handguns other than it gives additional choices for hunters to enjoy a time honored past time.


No one is giving anyone a hard time about posting a thread here...only ones pushing an agenda. Some here were not born yesterday and can see this is a serious agenda here you are pushing when all in reality you need to do if you're worried about acquiring game when you hunt is use a ML during Ml season like everyone else does. ESPECIALLY since you say todays ML's are as efficient as your proposed weapons.

In essence...use one of said ML's and you're better off than using a shotgun,pistol or large caliber centerfire rifle according to your point of view in your argument. So why all this?
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#3076872 - 12/13/12 12:32 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: recurve60#]
recurve60#
4 Point


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Loc: Rock Island

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I mean really...why go thru all the trouble when you can use a ML that you are saying is just as effective as what you are pushing.

Oh wait....I see...Contenders are special. They should be allowed.

Heck lets have the state create a special season for Contenders.
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#3077098 - 12/13/12 08:19 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
I would like to carry a weapon that would provide me the best chance of acquiring the game I am pursuing. I also think about other hunters needs and challenges . . . . . . . .

Then why not just open rifle season the first Saturday of November and do away with ML season all together?

x 2

Yep.
Either leave it as "muzzleloader" season, or change it to "deer season, any weapon". No need to require so many other hunters to purchase a new weapon to participate. Most already have a centerfire rifle or a shotgun for deer hunting, but almost none have a single-shot centerfire.

And again, as we carefully consider what we wish for, it would be a reasonable expectation that a lowering of annual deer limits (both antlered & antlerless) would coincide with any significant increase in hunting days with more effective weapons (at least in the coming year or two).


X3

My thoughts exactly Wes. Instead of opening MZ season to more and more weapons that are not MZs, just open gun season Nov. 1. But as you mentioned, that might require lowering bag limits.
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3077113 - 12/13/12 08:31 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2979
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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
and the fact that I am actually considering other hunters opinions before presenting this to the TWRA commission in Feb.

When and where is this going to take place? I might have to make a trip to see your little Presentation on this matter.

Still waiting on a location and time contendershooter.
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Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

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#3077152 - 12/13/12 09:04 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
Doskil
6 Point


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 764
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I think it is just a matter of time till more and more states are like Mississippi and South Carolina.

This isn't the 1950s when TN was still restocking deer and wanted short seasons.


Edited by Doskil (12/13/12 09:05 AM)

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#3077159 - 12/13/12 09:13 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
and the fact that I am actually considering other hunters opinions before presenting this to the TWRA commission in Feb.

When and where is this going to take place? I might have to make a trip to see your little Presentation on this matter.

Still waiting on a location and time contendershooter.
don't know yet, they have not gave me an exact time and date

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#3077170 - 12/13/12 09:25 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: recurve60#]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: recurve60#
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
 Originally Posted By: Outdoor Enthusiast
 Originally Posted By: recurve60#
Do you have stock in or sell said guns you are promoting?

Just sayin...brand new member and show up with surveys to help your your cause.


^^I am curious too.
No, the only gun stock I own is Ruger and their firearms would not qualify, with maybe the exception of the Ruger single shot, but at near $1,000 each compared to your $300.00 handi-rifle, it seems like a no-brainier on that choice.

Why are the old dogs on here so up on new members asking questions or posting?

My premise was explained quite thoroughly but I will recap for those who have not read the entire thread. I am a hunter, I love to hunt and love the outdoors. I work a lot just like 99% of everyone else on here, and when I get the random change to go hunting I would like to carry a weapon that would provide me the best chance of acquiring the game I am pursuing. I also think about other hunters needs and challenges, ways to get more people into hunting and keeping hunters in the game, because let's face it, the way things are going now, hunting is dying out in some ways.

I benefit in no way in the allowance of single shot rifles, shotguns and handguns other than it gives additional choices for hunters to enjoy a time honored past time.


No one is giving anyone a hard time about posting a thread here...only ones pushing an agenda. Some here were not born yesterday and can see this is a serious agenda here you are pushing when all in reality you need to do if you're worried about acquiring game when you hunt is use a ML during Ml season like everyone else does. ESPECIALLY since you say todays ML's are as efficient as your proposed weapons.

In essence...use one of said ML's and you're better off than using a shotgun,pistol or large caliber centerfire rifle according to your point of view in your argument. So why all this?

What I am proposing is using weapons that are equal to or less equal to ballistically to a muzzleloader, along with the fact using those type of weapons will still provide a short range challenge, while at the same time giving more opportunity for more hunters. Were you this upset when people proposed allowing crossbows? If you want to shoot a recurve with feathered fletched arrows, fine, but don't get onto the guy who shoots the crossbow, which is still archery tackle.

But you can't honestly sit there and say that if I took a single shot pistol in 44 Magnum, I would have an advantage over someone shooting a Knight, T/C, Savage, CVA, Traditions, Lyman, or whatever brand of inline with a scope on it. I would be handicapping myself further, but I would have a weapon that in some ways is easier to function and maintain. I would not have an advantage shooting a single shot shotgun or single shot 45.70 either. Some people on here have complained why not make it an open gun season starting the first Saturday in November, well muzzleloader season was started as an additional opportunity to hunt with a built in handicap of the weapon. You make it an open gun, that handicap is removed. You limit the weapon styles during those two weeks, then you still have a handicap as originally designed. And with as much hunting crap as people buy and the excuse to get a new gun, a 275.00 handi-rifle won't break the bank i suspect...

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#3077180 - 12/13/12 09:32 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: SES]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: SES
 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
and the fact that I am actually considering other hunters opinions before presenting this to the TWRA commission in Feb.

When and where is this going to take place? I might have to make a trip to see your little Presentation on this matter.
I hope you have a lot of spare time. Unless they shut him down, he could be up there a while. Very opinionated individual.
and having an opinion is a bad thing? How do you think the laws were changed to what they are now SES? You realize it was the fur hunters who changed the deer seasons to allow any centerfire right? They had and opinion too...The reason I placed the post on here is to get other hunters insight and opinions along with the survey, and if the figures don't warrant the proposal, or warrant modification of the proposal, then I will either can it or modify it. Unlike some opinionated people on here, I am not being selfish, I am actually throwing an idea out there and seeing what people think. So if the vast majority would prefer a bow season then all weapons, then I would modify my view and present why. Leave it like it is, well then I would propose nothing and drop it. But as stated I am looking for feedback and taking snipe comments is cheap.

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#3077184 - 12/13/12 09:34 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: smyrnagc]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: smyrnagc
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
survey results so far as of 8:27AM CST on 12/12/12:

keep it the way it is: 51%

add use of shotguns with muzzleloaders: 5%

add use of handguns and shotguns with muzzleloaders: 5%

add use of single shot rifles, handguns and shotguns with muzzleloaders 35%

make current muzzleloader season primitive muzzleloaders only and move in-lines to modern gun 2%

create a January primitive season 2%

keep the answers coming as I am going to keep the survey up thru the second week of January to make it as fair and accurate as possible before I do my presentation. I think I will include some data on the all the people who are advocating the any weapon season, and this may be a middle ground that is fair to our bow hunters and will not effect the remainder of the season.


My question would be, will you change the approach to your presentation based on your (this) survey results? It is apparent that the majority of your responses (51% which is a majority) are not in favor of any change. That 51% could be low if not all of the negative commentor's voted.

You also state "I think I will include some data on all the people who are advocating the any weapon season". Will you also include in your presentation that a majority of those that took the survey on tndeer voted to leave it as is?
Yes, and that is the whole point of this...to me it only seems fair to point out everyone's opinion

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#3077203 - 12/13/12 09:49 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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OK this is the last change I will make to the survey. Due to some comments on there that were repeating theirself about the any weapons season, I have modified the survey once again, and added a choice to have an archery season, then open it to any weapon on the same day the current muzzleloader season opens. I think the question choices are now consistent with everyone's views on this post, and I will be able to obtain the most consistent data with this new question format.

SO TNDEER readers, please take the time to go take the survey one more time, and this will be the final revision that will remain until January 18, 2013. Thanks everyone for your responses

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Z6R68PS

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#3077222 - 12/13/12 09:57 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
smyrnagc
6 Point


Registered: 12/26/10
Posts: 942
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
 Originally Posted By: smyrnagc
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
survey results so far as of 8:27AM CST on 12/12/12:

keep it the way it is: 51%

add use of shotguns with muzzleloaders: 5%

add use of handguns and shotguns with muzzleloaders: 5%

add use of single shot rifles, handguns and shotguns with muzzleloaders 35%

make current muzzleloader season primitive muzzleloaders only and move in-lines to modern gun 2%

create a January primitive season 2%

keep the answers coming as I am going to keep the survey up thru the second week of January to make it as fair and accurate as possible before I do my presentation. I think I will include some data on the all the people who are advocating the any weapon season, and this may be a middle ground that is fair to our bow hunters and will not effect the remainder of the season.


My question would be, will you change the approach to your presentation based on your (this) survey results? It is apparent that the majority of your responses (51% which is a majority) are not in favor of any change. That 51% could be low if not all of the negative commentor's voted.

You also state "I think I will include some data on all the people who are advocating the any weapon season". Will you also include in your presentation that a majority of those that took the survey on tndeer voted to leave it as is?
Yes, and that is the whole point of this...to me it only seems fair to point out everyone's opinion


Thank you
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Dedicated to the modern muzzleloading hunting enthusiast.
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#3077236 - 12/13/12 10:07 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
Wobblyshot1
8 Point


Registered: 10/13/10
Posts: 1250
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Leave cartridge guns out of muzzle loading season. Changing the name to primitive weapons season makes no sense to me.....Heck, I don't even consider my flintlock primitve much less a single shot breech loading rifle.

While we're on the subject of what other states do, why don't we have a flintlock only segment like the they do in Pennsylvania.

......Yea, that'll be the day \:D
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#3077262 - 12/13/12 10:19 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wobblyshot1]
Doskil
6 Point


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 764
Loc: NC USA

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Why not a January flintlock only season? Sounds like a good idea.
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#3078438 - 12/14/12 05:47 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Doskil]
mike243
16 Point


Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 12201
Loc: east tn

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Leave things as they are.I have seen this same topic/poster on other TN forums trying to gather support.Looks like somebody will need to do another survey to see how many want things left as is as far as weapons go!
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#3078527 - 12/14/12 07:17 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: mike243]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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@mike243 I have only posted on this site and TGO, none others. If there are other hunting forums, its not me. I know I am not the only one with this idea and I have heard it kicked around for some time now in different ways. My survey also has the question of "leave it the same" and if you feel that way, please vote that way.
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#3089847 - 12/21/12 08:52 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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Want to keep this going, if you have not taken time to take the survey, please do so and I will post the final results on 1/13/13

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Z6R68PS

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#3089860 - 12/21/12 08:57 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
jeff034fun
4 Point


Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 413
Loc: lenoir city

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no
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#3117334 - 01/10/13 07:54 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: jeff034fun]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Z6R68PS

Last chance on the survey that was a hot topic a few weeks back...I will be closing out by the end of next week and posting results.

Thanks TN Deer readers!!!

Hope you all had a Merry Christmas and a Blessed New Years, looking forward to discussing more topics during these troublesome times we are in...

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#3117474 - 01/10/13 09:35 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
Hunter 257W
10 Point


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I am open to having a primitive weapon season with ML, shotguns and single shot rifles/handguns with the condition you mentioned regarding the cartridge guns being something that was originally loaded with black powder. That will keep the Ruger No 1's chambered for modern cartridges out of the picture.

My 2nd choice would be to just add shotguns with slugs to the current ML season but your survey won't allow for 2nd choices. \:\)

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#3117638 - 01/10/13 11:35 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Hunter 257W]
Asaltwpn1
6 Point


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I greatly enjoy Mississippi's Muzzleloading season. My 35 Wheelen likes it too. If your not familiar with the Wheelen, might want to check it out. 300 yd shots are easily achieved.
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#3117665 - 01/10/13 11:50 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Asaltwpn1]
cecil30-30
16 Point


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300yd shots with my 45cal smokeless muzzy is easily achieved also.
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#3123448 - 01/14/13 02:18 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: cecil30-30]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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SURVEY RESULTS AS PROMISED!!!

First, want to say thank you all for answering the survey, and it has proved very informative...so for the good part...

After the collector analyzed the results, adjusted for margin of error and deleting multiple votes (multiple votes can be done by cleaning your internet history, or by a computer cleaner such as ccleaner running, but this survey tracked answers by incoming IP address response) here are the results:

Keep it the same no changes 31%

Mimic Mississippi and Louisiana and add single shot rifles, handguns of .35 caliber or larger, single shot shotguns along with muzzleloaders 30%

Adding single shot shotguns to the muzzleloader season 20%

Go to an Any Weapon Season 15%

Adding single shot handguns and shotguns 2%

Creating a Primitive Weapon Season 2%

Since the top two are very close with the third option falling close behind, I will present the overall results and propose the top three to the commission, and see what their feelings are and go from there.

Once again thanks to everyone.

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#3123494 - 01/14/13 02:47 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
AlabamaSwamper
12 Point


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Maybe we should allow Mzl's during bow season. These new high powered crossbows can easily shoot 100 yards, the traditional max range of mzl's.

I guess I'm really being a smart (you know) but my goodness.
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#3123594 - 01/14/13 03:55 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Wobblyshot1]
darn2ten
8 Point


Registered: 12/08/11
Posts: 1371
Loc: lincoln co. tn.

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Heck, I guess lets just keep modifying the poll till you get the results your wanting! I don't understand the logic that there is no advantage from a "muzzle" loaded gun to a "breech" loaded cartridge type single shot rifle. Personally, I think things are fine the way they are. Of course, just like yours this is only my opinion.
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#3123630 - 01/14/13 04:28 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: darn2ten]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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And people wonder why I keep saying it should just be deer season. No one's every happy with the way "special" weapons seasons are set up. So do away with them and end the arguing.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3123640 - 01/14/13 04:34 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: BSK]
Football Hunter
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Registered: 10/22/07
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
And people wonder why I keep saying it should just be deer season. No one's every happy with the way "special" weapons seasons are set up. So do away with them and end the arguing.
I actually like the way it is now.BTW,Ive read very little of this thread.
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#3123641 - 01/14/13 04:35 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: BSK]
Timber Ghost
8 Point


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 1724
Loc: Tn. Blount( Seymour)

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No, in my opinion
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#3123643 - 01/14/13 04:35 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: BSK]
Master Chief
10 Point


Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 3007
Loc: Henderson County

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
And people wonder why I keep saying it should just be deer season. No one's every happy with the way "special" weapons seasons are set up. So do away with them and end the arguing.

So you're saying just make the whole thing bow only right ??? ;\)
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#3123707 - 01/14/13 05:25 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Master Chief]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Master Chief
 Originally Posted By: BSK
And people wonder why I keep saying it should just be deer season. No one's every happy with the way "special" weapons seasons are set up. So do away with them and end the arguing.

So you're saying just make the whole thing bow only right ??? ;\)


HA!!! \:D
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#3124711 - 01/15/13 10:31 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: darn2ten]
contendershooter
4 Point


Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 111
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: darn2ten
Heck, I guess lets just keep modifying the poll till you get the results your wanting! I don't understand the logic that there is no advantage from a "muzzle" loaded gun to a "breech" loaded cartridge type single shot rifle. Personally, I think things are fine the way they are. Of course, just like yours this is only my opinion.
I did not change the survey since the last edit back in early December, and that was at the request of people on this thread of wanting the option in the survey to vote on an all weapons season and to add a primitive only season after the normal season.

I don't understand why people can't wrap their head around this concept, but its quite simple really. If you look at the current market of sabot shotgun slugs, they SHOOT THE EXACT SAME BULLET THAT YOU SHOOT FROM YOUR SABOTS OUT OF YOUR MUZZLELOADER. And guess what, typically you get better ballistics from the muzzleloader making it a LONGER RANGE AND MORE EFFICIENT hunting tool due to the longer barrel length and the ability to shoot magnum charges over the shotgun.

When you compare a modern inline, let's say a T/C Bone Collector versus a New England Firearms/Harrington and Richardson single shot Tracker Slug gun you have two differences...one loads from the breach, one from the muzzle, and one contains the charge in a plastic shell, the other doesn't. Otherwise, same bullet, same 209 primer, and if you do a comparison between the two and several hunting magazines have, the muzzleloader typically comes out on top.

Using reloading speed as your contention is miniscule at best, being your whole argument lies around the tradition of a muzzleloader when in-lines are so far away from traditional it's a joke.

SO if we can make a slight change that will keep people in the field longer, make it easier for someone to enjoy that prime time of the season, then we should do it. Otherwise, if everyone wants a true muzzleloader season, get rid of your in-lines and go back to your percussion and flintlocks shooting patched round-ball or conicals, loose FFg or FFFg powder, #11 or musket caps and no scopes.

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#3124822 - 01/15/13 12:00 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: contendershooter]
scn
16 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 10371
Loc: Brentwood, TN US

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I seem to remember you changing the survey at least three times. Maybe you finally got the results you were looking for.

IMO, the survey has zero validity.
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#3124903 - 01/15/13 12:52 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: scn]
woodchuckc
8 Point


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1802
Loc: Hickman County, TN

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 Originally Posted By: scn
I seem to remember you changing the survey at least three times. Maybe you finally got the results you were looking for.

IMO, the survey has zero validity.


x2! It seems like the survey was a moving target that changed until he could get enough votes in the category he preferred.

My vote would be to leave things the way they are regarding the weapons used during the 3 seasons, or do as BSK suggests and just make it deer season with some adjustment to the opening and closing dates. Either one would be just fine with me.

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#3125064 - 01/15/13 02:24 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: scn]
JeepKuntry
16 Point


Registered: 01/20/04
Posts: 14706
Loc: Clinton, TN

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I would like it be changed to muzzleloader or shotgun. Myself, I would sell my ML and get a good slug gun.
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#3126730 - 01/16/13 01:34 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: JeepKuntry]
Doskil
6 Point


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 764
Loc: NC USA

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There is no reason not to include single shot breech loaders.

I don't see a good reason for 'keeping the season the same'?

Has it been the end of the world in Mississippi? Has it allowed more folks to go to the woods and take deer?

Has it increased the harvest of female deer?

I know in NC, anyway, they want more female deer harvested


Edited by Doskil (01/16/13 01:37 PM)

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#3126953 - 01/16/13 03:50 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Doskil]
WRbowhunter
8 Point


Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1662
Loc: collierville,tn

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I like it just the way it is.
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#3127064 - 01/16/13 04:41 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: fishboy1]
Pursuit Hunter
8 Point


Registered: 10/01/08
Posts: 2086
Loc: Way out there

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 Originally Posted By: fishboy1
I have NEVER had a standing still second shot when using a center fire rifle.
I kill multiple does out of a single group with a modern rifle all the time. Doing so primarily requires that the hunter move as little as possible between shots. Not possible with a ML, no matter how fast you are. Keep ML season ML season!
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#3127084 - 01/16/13 04:53 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Pursuit Hunter]
WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point


Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 12090
Loc: Benton Co.

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I've shot a 2nd doe out of a bunch with my M.L. also a Buck then a doe. I get the 2nd shot loaded before the smoke clears.IMO the smoke often confuses them and they don't know which way to go.
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#3127096 - 01/16/13 05:07 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: WestTn Huntin'man]
cecil30-30
16 Point


Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 14319
Loc: Morgan Co

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Last year I think Rafi,shot 4 deer in one morning with his muzzy,all back to back.3 does and a buck.
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#3132085 - 01/20/13 05:29 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: cecil30-30]
Deer Assassin
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Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 88218
Loc: Kingston Springs

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i had had at least 3 triples with a ml


easy as pie just load fast oh it was smokless too
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#3139449 - 01/25/13 06:59 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
wtbh236
4 Point


Registered: 11/08/11
Posts: 108
Loc: maury co tn

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no no no leave it alone
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#3140134 - 01/26/13 10:35 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: wtbh236]
W.Seay
14 Point


Registered: 01/17/06
Posts: 8463
Loc: Collierville,TN.

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I'd like to use my rifles all season long \:\)
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#3159344 - 02/11/13 01:26 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
hunter0925
8 Point


Registered: 01/21/13
Posts: 1092
Loc: TN, Rhea,

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Nope. Just ML. I don't want every Tom, Dick, and Harry out there just because it is easier for them now.
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#3159362 - 02/11/13 05:30 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: hunter0925]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4079
Loc: Tennessee

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So you are suggesting that a hunter with a T/C Encore single shot rifle chambered in 35 cal or larger has no advantage over a person with a front stuffer?

Wow, that IS a stretch!

Why not just use these weapons in a gun season?

Why do you want to change muzzle loader season?

Then it would not be called muzzle loader (or bow) season any longer.

I am confused as to your objective???

You already have a season to use your 35 cal or larger.
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#3159510 - 02/11/13 08:47 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: hunter0925]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25532
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

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 Originally Posted By: hunter0925
Nope. Just ML. I don't want every Tom, Dick, and Harry out there just because it is easier for them now.
I agree
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#3162936 - 02/13/13 07:02 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: ]
Doskil
6 Point


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 764
Loc: NC USA

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 Quote:
Then it would not be called muzzle loader (or bow) season any longer.


So what?

Why do we even have muzzleloader seasons anymore?

I don't see a reason for a separate muzzleloader season. Almost nobody acts like Daniel Boone or Lewis Wetzel anymore and wants to take game like the first settlers did.


Edited by Doskil (02/13/13 07:05 PM)

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#3175199 - 02/24/13 10:19 PM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Rubberduck270]
Sharecropper
Spike


Registered: 11/25/12
Posts: 28
Loc: Gtown,TN

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Thanks gentlemen, I did not realize the subject had been broached.
Personally I would like the chance to use the single shot big bore.

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#3175244 - 02/25/13 01:06 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Doskil]
hunter0925
8 Point


Registered: 01/21/13
Posts: 1092
Loc: TN, Rhea,

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 Originally Posted By: Doskil
 Quote:
Then it would not be called muzzle loader (or bow) season any longer.


So what?

Why do we even have muzzleloader seasons anymore?

I don't see a reason for a separate muzzleloader season. Almost nobody acts like Daniel Boone or Lewis Wetzel anymore and wants to take game like the first settlers did.

I agree that noone acts like Daniel Boone or the settlers but you have to see the advantage in the ability to reload shots faster. I enjoy my Omega and scope but would have no real problem going back to iron sights if those regs were put into place. The season for ml is only 2 weeks as is so why not just wait until rifle to use your big bore? IMO
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#3175270 - 02/25/13 04:58 AM Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader [Re: Sharecropper]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4079
Loc: Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: Sharecropper
Thanks gentlemen, I did not realize the subject had been broached.
Personally I would like the chance to use the single shot big bore.


I am VERY confused now. I thought you already have a chance to use the single shot big bore during centerfire (rifle) season.
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