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#3072210 - 12/10/12 09:30 AM BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season
richmanbarbeque
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BSK, What do you think would be the economic outcome if we went to an any weapon deer season?
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#3072308 - 12/10/12 10:23 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: richmanbarbeque]
Diehard Hunter
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I am not BSK, but I will give you my take since this is not In a private message.

1) hunting with a gun is cheaper than hunting with a bow. You would see people quit bow hunting and take up hunting with a gun.

2) hunting with a rifle is easier than hunting with a bow or muzzleloader, so muzzleloaders would go by the wayside.

The results of both of those would be a decrease in the sale of those weapons and lost PR revenues associated with those sales.

Locally TWRA would lose those license sales, and have little to no recuperation in the form of rifles license sales.

3) you would have to have lower limits or shorter seasons. Many small town economies rely on hunters for income from September to January. Any decrease in the season, or number of days afield would be devastating for those local economies. Look at how many places in middle and west tennessee closed up shop when the timber companies pulled their land from the public hunting system and us East Tennessee folks quit traveling down that way.


In essence, it would cost the TWRA federal and local funds, and have a significant impact on local economies because of lost sales of food, lodging, gas, etc.

Just my two cents
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#3072325 - 12/10/12 10:34 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: Diehard Hunter]
contendershooter
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I just posted a survey in regards to changing the manner and means during muzzleloader season only, and when making the presentation last year when it was tabled due to other pressing issues, TWRA brass had floated this "any weapon" season idea which I disagreed with and gave reasons why. I don't believe opening up muzzleloader season and also allowing the use of single shot handguns, and rifles, in 45/70 for example like Mississippi does or allowing the use of a single shot shotgun would change a thing. It has worked well in Mississippi.
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#3072336 - 12/10/12 10:42 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: contendershooter]
scn
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 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
I just posted a survey in regards to changing the manner and means during muzzleloader season only, and when making the presentation last year when it was tabled due to other pressing issues, TWRA brass had floated this "any weapon" season idea which I disagreed with and gave reasons why. I don't believe opening up muzzleloader season and also allowing the use of single shot handguns, and rifles, in 45/70 for example like Mississippi does or allowing the use of a single shot shotgun would change a thing. It has worked well in Mississippi.


The ease of repeat shots with the fireams you mention totally changes the game in the muzzlelaoder season.

If the Commission decides to go that route my preference would be to just do away with the muzzlelader season and open it to any legal firearm.
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#3072343 - 12/10/12 10:46 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: scn]
SES
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 Originally Posted By: scn
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
I just posted a survey in regards to changing the manner and means during muzzleloader season only, and when making the presentation last year when it was tabled due to other pressing issues, TWRA brass had floated this "any weapon" season idea which I disagreed with and gave reasons why. I don't believe opening up muzzleloader season and also allowing the use of single shot handguns, and rifles, in 45/70 for example like Mississippi does or allowing the use of a single shot shotgun would change a thing. It has worked well in Mississippi.


The ease of repeat shots with the fireams you mention totally changes the game in the muzzlelaoder season.

If the Commission decides to go that route my preference would be to just do away with the muzzlelader season and open it to any legal firearm.
That would be a shame if that ever happened.

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#3072379 - 12/10/12 11:03 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: scn]
Wes Parrish
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 Originally Posted By: scn
If the Commission decides to go that route my preference would be to just do away with the muzzlelader season and open it to any legal firearm.

I agree.
Makes no sense to put another group of special weapons' enthusiasts on a pedestal. If single-shot rifles like these were made legal during what has been known as muzzleloader, then shotguns using slugs should also be legal weapons, if not any firearm.

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#3072405 - 12/10/12 11:26 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: Wes Parrish]
richmanbarbeque
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I am talking about the local economy. Gas stations, hotels, restaurants, etc.
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#3072438 - 12/10/12 11:47 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: richmanbarbeque]
Kirk
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I doubt it would have much of a "local" change in the economy. In my opinion opening the season earlier to "any type weapon" would only take the monies already spent and redistribute it earlier in the season or perhaps trickle it along as the weather cooled.

The hunters on Tndeer.com are not typical hunters. We hunt more, spend more time and money in the pursuit of game. it might cause us to spend more money.

Look at the opening weekend of Rifle. A large portion of the hunters in the state only hunt this opening weekend and possibly one or two more times. Then they are done with the year.
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#3072446 - 12/10/12 11:54 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: richmanbarbeque]
Crosshairy
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I think Diehard gave a reasonable overview of the fallout from a macroeconomic view.

In general, I think it would have measurable negative impacts for Tennessee. Nationally operated businesses, like archery/muzzleloader manufacturers, would obviously be hit somewhat, but that effect is obviously lessened by the fact that other states would presumably continue business as usual.

As far as manner and means legislation goes, I personally feel like TN is in the sweet spot regarding what is allowable. Plenty of weapons like shotguns get their own boost within WMAs that have restrictions on center fire rifles. Lets leave things alone and work on herd management.
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#3072455 - 12/10/12 11:59 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: Kirk]
Diehard Hunter
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 Originally Posted By: Kirk
I doubt it would have much of a "local" change in the economy. In my opinion opening the season earlier to "any type weapon" would only take the monies already spent and redistribute it earlier in the season or perhaps trickle it along as the weather cooled.

The hunters on Tndeer.com are not typical hunters. We hunt more, spend more time and money in the pursuit of game. it might cause us to spend more money.

Look at the opening weekend of Rifle. A large portion of the hunters in the state only hunt this opening weekend and possibly one or two more times. Then they are done with the year.


I disagree. As it stands now, we have hunting spread out over a long time period. What happens when everyone can hunt with a gun from the first day on? Then, all those that normally hunt just one weekend a year are competing with everyone else for a motel room or a seat in a restaurant. You are assuming an unlimited capacity for these local places, and that is not true. Sure they may have a booming weekend, but they will miss out on sales simply because they are at capacity and turning people away. People that if spread out over time could be accommodated. What happens also when processors are full to the gills with deer during the hot weather of early season. They can only handle so many. They too will be turning people away.

Given a couple of years of frustration, I think many would give it up because of the hassle. I know I would. Heck I already have in many places like fort campbell. I don't care how good the hunting is, I am not going to fight with everyone and their brother to get a motel room or campsite I have enough hassles in my life already, I wouldn't need more when I am trying to do something I love.
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#3072458 - 12/10/12 12:01 PM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: richmanbarbeque]
Coach
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 Originally Posted By: richmanbarbeque
I am talking about the local economy. Gas stations, hotels, restaurants, etc.


I really can't speak for TN... but in Michigan in the upper 2/3rds of the state and also in the Upper Peninsula it would be financially devastating to do anything to the seasons that would lower hunter numbers visiting the area. Many small towns in Northern Michigan rely heavily on hunting deer, bear and elk. Coastal towns rely on fishing also...
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#3072476 - 12/10/12 12:16 PM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: Diehard Hunter]
Rubberduck270
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 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
1) hunting with a gun is cheaper than hunting with a bow. You would see people quit bow hunting and take up hunting with a gun.

2) hunting with a rifle is easier than hunting with a bow or muzzleloader, so muzzleloaders would go by the wayside.

The results of both of those would be a decrease in the sale of those weapons and lost PR revenues associated with those sales.

Locally TWRA would lose those license sales, and have little to no recuperation in the form of rifles license sales.


If we only had "deer" season then each hunter would be required to buy the Sportsman license.

And even if they did away with the various weapons seasons you'll still have guys hunting with weapons other than rifles. You'll still have bow hunters and muzzleloaders because that's what they choose to hunt with.
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#3072491 - 12/10/12 12:25 PM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: Rubberduck270]
Diehard Hunter
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 Originally Posted By: Rubberduck270
 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
1) hunting with a gun is cheaper than hunting with a bow. You would see people quit bow hunting and take up hunting with a gun.

2) hunting with a rifle is easier than hunting with a bow or muzzleloader, so muzzleloaders would go by the wayside.

The results of both of those would be a decrease in the sale of those weapons and lost PR revenues associated with those sales.

Locally TWRA would lose those license sales, and have little to no recuperation in the form of rifles license sales.


If we only had "deer" season then each hunter would be required to buy the Sportsman license.

And even if they did away with the various weapons seasons you'll still have guys hunting with weapons other than rifles. You'll still have bow hunters and muzzleloaders because that's what they choose to hunt with.


The vast majority of people choose to hunt with bows and muzzleloaders because they want more time in the woods, not because theyblove hunting with a particular weapon. I am one of those. If your argument had merit, the majority of people hunting this time of year would still have bows or muzzleloaders in their hands. That is not the case. The vast majority of bow hunters put the bows away and pick up muzzleloaders when muzzleloader opens. The same for muzzleloader hunters when gun season opens. That is why the vast majority of us on this site have all three. We love hunting deer, not hunting with a particular weapon. Most of us anyway.
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#3072505 - 12/10/12 12:34 PM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: SES]
MUP
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 Originally Posted By: SES
 Originally Posted By: scn
 Originally Posted By: contendershooter
I just posted a survey in regards to changing the manner and means during muzzleloader season only, and when making the presentation last year when it was tabled due to other pressing issues, TWRA brass had floated this "any weapon" season idea which I disagreed with and gave reasons why. I don't believe opening up muzzleloader season and also allowing the use of single shot handguns, and rifles, in 45/70 for example like Mississippi does or allowing the use of a single shot shotgun would change a thing. It has worked well in Mississippi.


The ease of repeat shots with the fireams you mention totally changes the game in the muzzlelaoder season.

If the Commission decides to go that route my preference would be to just do away with the muzzlelader season and open it to any legal firearm.
That would be a shame if that ever happened.


I agree.
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#3072570 - 12/10/12 01:11 PM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: MUP]
Poser
Mud Dauber
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I know a certain liquor store that would miss a bottle a week worth of bourbon sales for every week lobbed off the season. I also frequent a cafe during the early season where I'll spend a couple of hours working during the midday and usually tip the waitress 100% on a $10 lunch for letting me sit there so long.
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#3072619 - 12/10/12 01:49 PM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: Coach]
Redfred16
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 Originally Posted By: Coach
 Originally Posted By: richmanbarbeque
I am talking about the local economy. Gas stations, hotels, restaurants, etc.


I really can't speak for TN... but in Michigan in the upper 2/3rds of the state and also in the Upper Peninsula it would be financially devastating to do anything to the seasons that would lower hunter numbers visiting the area. Many small towns in Northern Michigan rely heavily on hunting deer, bear and elk. Coastal towns rely on fishing also...


Wisconsin is the same. There are small town bar/resturant owners that make 80% of thier yearly income over Wisconsin's 9 day gun season. Without making major changes like some are talking about here, simple herd mismanagement has crippled some of those businesses. While I don't see that kind of overall rapid economic impact as TN hunters, I'm sure there are plenty of business owners that could point to just how much major changes would hurt them.

The seasons in TN are awesome, leave them as they are and that comes from someone new. If there were any change TN should maybe look into, it's giving an extended bow season in certain areas where deer are starting to grow to dangerous levels, mostly urban areas. This may not even be needed but as we see less hunters and more urban sprawl it's likely to be needed in the future.
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#3072731 - 12/10/12 02:51 PM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: richmanbarbeque]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: richmanbarbeque
BSK, What do you think would be the economic outcome if we went to an any weapon deer season?


If we did this just in TN, the economic impacts would be minimal. However, if every state went to this practice, it would destroy the archery and MZ market, as well as all markets attached to those two products.
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#3072741 - 12/10/12 02:56 PM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
. . . . . if every state went to this practice, it would destroy the archery and MZ market, as well as all markets attached to those two products.

Which would have what effect outside the sales of archery & MZ products?

Spend less one place, more to spend another.

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#3072750 - 12/10/12 03:01 PM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: Diehard Hunter]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
[The vast majority of people choose to hunt with bows and muzzleloaders because they want more time in the woods, not because theyblove hunting with a particular weapon.


I completely agree with that Diehard Hunter.
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#3072752 - 12/10/12 03:03 PM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: BSK
. . . . . if every state went to this practice, it would destroy the archery and MZ market, as well as all markets attached to those two products.

Which would have what effect outside the sales of archery & MZ products?

Spend less one place, more to spend another.


I don't know Wes. Perhaps that is true. But I believe the last time I saw the numbers, the archery market alone was a billion dollar per year market. Now would that money just be spent somewhere else in the hunting marketplace? I have no idea, but I suspect not all of it.
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#3072764 - 12/10/12 03:06 PM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: BSK]
BSK
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Diehard Hunter,

I disagree that a longer all-weapon season would hurt the local hunting-driven economies. In fact, I believe hunting days in the field would increase significantly, which would help those market-places. Currently, the majority of deer hunters are gun-only hunters, who have 6 weeks to hunt, and most people only hunt on the weekends. Throw in the gun season being around the holidays, and many people pass a few weekends because of family commitments. Give those hunters October to hunt as well and I strongly believe gun hunters would expand into hunting those weekends too, increasing total days afield per year.
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#3072944 - 12/10/12 04:34 PM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: BSK]
Redfred16
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Diehard Hunter
[The vast majority of people choose to hunt with bows and muzzleloaders because they want more time in the woods, not because theyblove hunting with a particular weapon.


I completely agree with that Diehard Hunter.


I disagree with that, only based on myself and the guys I hunted with in Wisconsin. We all love bow hunting. The only reason we gun hunted, was because in Wisconsin, until 2011, you could not bow hunt during gun season and deer gun season is just as much social as it is about deer or we might have skipped gun season all together.

The only reason I went to a gun here in TN, is the deer I saw shortly after muzzle loader season opened were moving fast and not very relaxed. Which makes bow hunting pretty tough.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think you might be thinking that number is greater than it really is, maybe 50/50 instead of vast majority.
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#3073075 - 12/10/12 05:37 PM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: Redfred16]
Crosshairy
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The only people I "know" that bow hunt outside of bow season on their own volition are on this site. None of the hunters I know personally do that.

Point being - don't use TNDEER members' habits as a representative sample of what the general population will do. Folks on here are more dedicated to the sport (on average) than the average hunter in TN I think - supported by the fact that they are active on a deer hunting website!

The argument isn't about season length - longer seasons shouldn't hurt anything. It's changing the weapons allowed that will most significantly impact the economy.
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#3073510 - 12/10/12 09:13 PM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: Crosshairy]
waynesworld
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bsk if we were to go to one season how many more days hunting do you think they would be able to have? Would you agree you would have to shorten the total season? if not would we harvest too many deer? I was amazed in the amounts of deer that guns take vrs the amount of archery. I do feel better not getting anything this year in archery. It would be hard to calculate what impact the change would make but I would guess it would lower the total hunting days because the days would be more efficient.
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#3073529 - 12/10/12 09:24 PM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: waynesworld]
waynesworld
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I don't know anyone that hunts bow that would keep it if they can hunt with a rifle. If we went to all one season I would sell my bow.

I know there are some that will keep bow hunting but it would continue to decrease. According to harvest data only 1% of deer are killed using bow or xbow after gun opens.

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#3073758 - 12/11/12 06:09 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: waynesworld]
Redfred16
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 Originally Posted By: waynesworld
I don't know anyone that hunts bow that would keep it if they can hunt with a rifle. If we went to all one season I would sell my bow.

I know there are some that will keep bow hunting but it would continue to decrease. According to harvest data only 1% of deer are killed using bow or xbow after gun opens.




I guess thats another regional difference I didn't see compared to Wisconsin. The Wisconsin DNR just last year finally gave into the growing pressure to allow bow hunting during gun season. Of the hunters I know only the oldest or the guys who hunt gun opening weekend for the social or traditions in Wisconsin prefer gun over bow hunting for deer. But again I haven't met enough Tennessee hunters and none in person to say this about TN hunters, I should have been more specific and said so in my original post. I was giving everyone a view point from outside the box.

Most of us that gave up our guns to exclusively hunt with a bow found it very hard to do as the deer are often moving much too quick to bow hunt due to the amount of hunters out in the woods. Deer drives are a tradition in Wisconsin and they make bow hunting impossible.
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#3073853 - 12/11/12 07:37 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: Redfred16]
Wes Parrish
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Very interesting to see some of these regional differences.
I'd speculate that the reason so many Cheeseheads prefer archery is because they had to choose between a few days of gun vs. a long archery season, but not both. Tennessee gives you both.

 Originally Posted By: Redfred16
. . . . . regional difference.

I'd also speculate it might be a tad easier to successfully bowhunt much of Wisconsin's Dairyland vs. Tennessee's ridge & hollow woodlands?

Speaking of regional differences, imagine trying to bowhunt where the customary deer hunting is with dogs.

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#3073898 - 12/11/12 08:03 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: waynesworld]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: waynesworld
bsk if we were to go to one season how many more days hunting do you think they would be able to have? Would you agree you would have to shorten the total season? if not would we harvest too many deer? I was amazed in the amounts of deer that guns take vrs the amount of archery. I do feel better not getting anything this year in archery. It would be hard to calculate what impact the change would make but I would guess it would lower the total hunting days because the days would be more efficient.


I wouldn't lower the number of hunting days. I would make it three months of any weapon season. However, bag limits might need to be reduced to prevent over-harvest. That would be something that would need to be monitored closely.
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#3073970 - 12/11/12 09:07 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
. . . . .monitored closely.

This is one reason it's not feasible to implement some otherwise good ideas.

TWRA has neither the money nor the resources to more closely monitor more complicated regulations.

Anyone ever gone on one of the quota gun hunts on one of the National Wildlife Refuges that "require" your killing an antlerless deer to "earn" a buck tag?

Their "earn-a-buck" program quickly became a total joke on these quota hunts because so many hunters simply ignored the regs, without consequence. At the end of the day, this reg has mainly just punished honest hunters for being honest.

Be careful what you wish for.

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#3073981 - 12/11/12 09:16 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: Diehard Hunter]
TX300mag
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Texas began phasing in a muzzleloader season (after rifle) in the last few years.

Prior to that, guess who the only guy in Texas with a muzzleloader was?

Now that there is an additional hunting opportunity, you can buy stuff at BassPro and Gander Mountain. I wouldn't be surprised if Academy started carrying MZ supplies before long, either.
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#3073996 - 12/11/12 09:27 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: TX300mag]
Doskil
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Muzzleloader seasons are a joke now with scoped 300-400 yard smokeless powder guns now for sale.

I think South Carolina has it right with 'any legal weapon' seasons.

I think they are the only state to have such seasons

Archery and muzzleloader seasons have no real place in deer management anymore and just serve to sell stuff.


Edited by Doskil (12/11/12 09:28 AM)

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#3074089 - 12/11/12 10:39 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
Anyone ever gone on one of the quota gun hunts on one of the National Wildlife Refuges that "require" your killing an antlerless deer to "earn" a buck tag?

Their "earn-a-buck" program quickly became a total joke on these quota hunts because so many hunters simply ignored the regs, without consequence. At the end of the day, this reg has mainly just punished honest hunters for being honest.

Be careful what you wish for.


Unfortunately (for the deer herd), many hunters did live by the regs. Now the section of National Refuge by my place has no deer left. "Earn-A-Buck," continued after the '07 EHD outbreak, decimated that population.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3074109 - 12/11/12 10:50 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: Doskil]
Rubberduck270
10 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2721
Loc: Lawrence Co.

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Doskil
Muzzleloader seasons are a joke now with scoped 300-400 yard smokeless powder guns now for sale.

I think South Carolina has it right with 'any legal weapon' seasons.

I think they are the only state to have such seasons

Archery and muzzleloader seasons have no real place in deer management anymore and just serve to sell stuff.

The actual number of people in TN with a ML of making those types of shots is obviously a lot lower than you realize. A hot ML is no different than a fast bow, crossbow or rifle. If you want speed, you have to pay for it.
_________________________
Smokeless Muzzleloading: It ain't your Grampa's flintlock

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#3074119 - 12/11/12 10:57 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 19179
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Unfortunately (for the deer herd), many hunters did live by the regs. Now the section of National Refuge by my place has no deer left. "Earn-A-Buck," continued after the '07 EHD outbreak, decimated that population.

Even more unfortunately, I'm now convinced that the main reason those refuges instituted "Earn-A-Buck" was to purposefully decimate the deer herd. Their focus is not on wildlife so much as it is on waterfowl. They don't seem to want ANY deer on their refuges.

Honest hunters were used as pawns to decimate the deer herd, while there was little if any repercussion to those dishonest hunters who continued to just shoot the first bucks that came along.

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#3074132 - 12/11/12 11:10 AM Re: BSK, economic outcome of any weapon season [Re: Wes Parrish]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64969
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Wes Parrish
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Unfortunately (for the deer herd), many hunters did live by the regs. Now the section of National Refuge by my place has no deer left. "Earn-A-Buck," continued after the '07 EHD outbreak, decimated that population.

Even more unfortunately, I'm now convinced that the main reason those refuges instituted "Earn-A-Buck" was to purposefully decimate the deer herd.


I agree.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
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