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#3049985 - 11/26/12 03:43 PM Another logging question.
eastTN270
6 Point


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 549
Loc: Morristown

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I have a contract with USDA to do wildlife habitat improvements on my property. I have about 18 acres that will be clear cut with the exception of oaks and other wildlife beneficial trees(most of this area is junk, so leaving the oaks will not be leaving much). I have 7-8 acres that is very mature hardwood. Lots of mature red and white oak. The canopy in this area is 100%. The USDA and TWRA officials helping me with the project say these areas need to me thinned 50%+ to allow sunlight and native browse. I understand and I am fine with this.

Here is the situation. They recommended I contact the forester for my area. I have met with him twice. He is very impressed with the 7-8 acres of mature hardwood. He said I had what looked to be quite a few veneer quality trees. He is dead set against selling right now, with the economy and log market down.

I understand both points of view. My intension is for wildlife habitat improvement and I side with the USDA and TWRA. Just because the economy is down does not mean that life stops and we put everything on hold. At the same time, I don't want to leave alot of money laying on the table if these trees are very valuable. I am completely ignorant of timber prices and what my logs are worth. This is the first time ever having any logging done; I'm excited about it, but also a nervous wreck because you only get one shot at getting it done right. This is small acreage and likely will not be a timber producing property.

Who has thoughts, opinions, experiences to share?
One other thing. I have the names of a couple of reputable loggers, but the forester said he could get me the names of "high quality white oak buyers". Are loggers and these buyers different?

Thanks for any input!
_________________________
"The only purpose for a pistol is as a means to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down."

Vegetables are NOT food, vegetables are what FOOD eats.

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#3050050 - 11/26/12 04:10 PM Re: Another logging question. [Re: eastTN270]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65456
Loc: Nashville, TN

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You're going to have to decide what is more important to you, the price/value of the timber, or what you are trying to accomplish habitat-wise. Often, the two conflict.

Most often, loggers and log buyers are two different people (unless the logger works for a particular mill).
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3061514 - 12/03/12 04:09 PM Re: Another logging question. [Re: eastTN270]
bowfire
Spike


Registered: 08/13/08
Posts: 82
Loc: West TN

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The forester should have a list of timber consultants that work in your county. They work on a percentage basis, so its in their interest to get you the most for your timber as well as overseeing the whole operation. In a nutshell they inventory what you have and put it out for bid. I would never deal directly with a logger unless you trust them 100%. Its in their best interest to low ball you.
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liberalism -ideas so good they have to be mandatory. Andrew Wilkow

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#3061585 - 12/03/12 05:01 PM Re: Another logging question. [Re: bowfire]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65456
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: bowfire
The forester should have a list of timber consultants that work in your county. They work on a percentage basis, so its in their interest to get you the most for your timber as well as overseeing the whole operation. In a nutshell they inventory what you have and put it out for bid. I would never deal directly with a logger unless you trust them 100%. Its in their best interest to low ball you.


Each have their downside. The logger wants to pay as little as possible for the logs he cuts, and the forester wants as much cut as possible to maximize his percentage.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3061855 - 12/03/12 07:21 PM Re: Another logging question. [Re: BSK]
Boll Weevil
8 Point


Registered: 06/26/11
Posts: 1238
Loc: Hardeman

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Simply one fellow's opinion (with the clear knowledge that I know absolutely nothing of either your regional market, property accessibility, local mill inventories, or details about the cruise that was done).

Consider waiting. Choose an acceptable value that satisfies your return requirement (minus harvest costs and gains taxes). Though they are far-leading indicators when it comes to timber value, both mortgage-lending and housing-starts continue to steadily improve and show VERY showing healthy trends.

As well, what bowfire says is spot-on; unless you trust that logger without question...you could be leaving return on the table.

You're in the driver's seat! Good luck with your decision!

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#3064770 - 12/05/12 01:45 PM Re: Another logging question. [Re: Boll Weevil]
treefarmer
4 Point


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 348
Loc: Humphreys County, TN

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I agree with what the others have said. Ask your Area forester for the name of a Consulting Forester (area foresters can't sell timber) and talk with one. Veneer grade timber is the very best and is very valuable. You need to come up with an overall management plan for your property that includes forestry and wildlife. A consulting forester can help you come up with a plan but you need one that knows something about wildlife and can incorporate your goals. Don't just cut the trees around the veneer trees because the new sunlight will cause new "epicormic" branches to pop up on the veneer tree trunk and you lose the veneer grade after maybe 2 years. A consulting forester charges 6-10% of a sale but experience shows you get that much more for your timber because they know the buyers, and they oversee the logging, make sure the logger has insurance and follows BMP's etc. Since the timber market is low right now you may want to spend the next year or two learning about forestry and wildlife habitat so you can almost write your own management plan.
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#3064913 - 12/05/12 02:59 PM Re: Another logging question. [Re: treefarmer]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65456
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: treefarmer
A consulting forester can help you come up with a plan but you need one that knows something about wildlife and can incorporate your goals.


[my emphasis added above]

Good luck with that...


 Quote:
A consulting forester charges 6-10% of a sale but experience shows you get that much more for your timber because they know the buyers, and they oversee the logging, make sure the logger has insurance and follows BMP's etc.


My experiences have been just the opposite. When working with a forester and placing timber sales up for bid, I usually get half the value I would have gotten working with an honest logger (which unfortunately, are as rare as hens teeth). Timber buyers have to bid low in case anything goes wrong with the cutting process or timber values suddenly fall. Plus the forester gets his cut. When working with an honest logger, I've gotten between 40-60% of the actual mill-purchased value of the logs. That usually beats a timber buyers bid by a long shot. On the other hand, with a bid system, you get your money up front before the first log is cut. That can be a real plus.

Both systems have their upsides and downsides.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3065208 - 12/05/12 06:36 PM Re: Another logging question. [Re: BSK]
timberjack86
14 Point


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 7989
Loc: Grundy county

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: treefarmer
A consulting forester can help you come up with a plan but you need one that knows something about wildlife and can incorporate your goals.


[my emphasis added above]

Good luck with that...


 Quote:
A consulting forester charges 6-10% of a sale but experience shows you get that much more for your timber because they know the buyers, and they oversee the logging, make sure the logger has insurance and follows BMP's etc.


My experiences have been just the opposite. When working with a forester and placing timber sales up for bid, I usually get half the value I would have gotten working with an honest logger (which unfortunately, are as rare as hens teeth). Timber buyers have to bid low in case anything goes wrong with the cutting process or timber values suddenly fall. Plus the forester gets his cut. When working with an honest logger, I've gotten between 40-60% of the actual mill-purchased value of the logs. That usually beats a timber buyers bid by a long shot. On the other hand, with a bid system, you get your money up front before the first log is cut. That can be a real plus.

Both systems have their upsides and downsides.

Great info!
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