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#3053994 - 11/28/12 07:50 PM Re: shoulder vs liver/gut shots [Re: TNDeerGuy]
Radar
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 31209
Loc: Kansas City, Mo.

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Hope you never lose a shoulder hit buck like I did . It was a 150-160 class buck in Fentress county . Still a heart breaker for me , but when I saw him chasing a doe the next day from the same stand .
I was releived that he was still alive and I almost got a second chance at him , but he was a little shy of that stand location .
RichmanBBQ was there on the tracking job .
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#3054061 - 11/28/12 08:17 PM Re: shoulder vs liver/gut shots [Re: Radar]
catman529
spiderboy
16 Point


Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 16278
Loc: Franklin TN

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Thanks for the feedback. I'd also choose a liver over a shoulder shot because pulling 65 lbs won't get me through a bucks shoulder. The original question is which bad shot is more common among the bad shots you have made, but I like to hear what y'all say about which bad shot is preferred if you had the choice.
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Haven't been this excited about deer season

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#3054135 - 11/28/12 08:49 PM Re: shoulder vs liver/gut shots [Re: catman529]
infoman jr.
10 Point


Registered: 10/05/03
Posts: 3788
Loc: Elizabethtown, KY

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With me shooting rages, I'd rather have a good hole and penetration farther back than risk hitting the shoulder.
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#3055840 - 11/29/12 08:22 PM Re: shoulder vs liver/gut shots [Re: infoman jr.]
Hoss
TnDeer Old Timer
8 Point


Registered: 02/14/00
Posts: 1459
Loc: Hendersonville , TN

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Study some anatomy charts of whitetail deer. I am always amazed at how many bowhunters don't know the anatomy of a deer. The shoulder is not where most think it is. The lungs are not where they think it is. The liver is not where they think it is. They will argue that they know, but when push comes to shove they do not know it accurately. I am basing this opinion on 25 years of teaching Bowhunter Education.

The second part of the equation is learning to think in 3-D. A lot of bohunters that do know where the heart, lung, liver and shoulder are on a broadside deer cannot make the mental calculation on where they are in relationship to an angle shift. The best way to learn this is to practice. When you watch a deer video constantly imagine the shifting angle of the camera. A deer is not a 3-D target with its vitals stuck to the outside. A target is 3-D in structure but not in vitals location.

Take an International Bowhunter Education Program class. It will help to learn what you think you know. \:D


Edited by Hoss (11/29/12 08:23 PM)
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A mere shadow of the man I once was... Me!

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#3055885 - 11/29/12 08:36 PM Re: shoulder vs liver/gut shots [Re: Hoss]
Hoss
TnDeer Old Timer
8 Point


Registered: 02/14/00
Posts: 1459
Loc: Hendersonville , TN

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On a broadside deer aim about 4 inches directly above where the leg joins the torso. If you aim 3 inches behind the "shoulder" you will hit the liver and miss the lungs or only get a part of the lung. You may get the diaphragm, maybe. Directly above the leg 4 inches will put you in the center of both lungs if the deer is broadside and on the same level as you. Pick a spot on the deer at that point and concentrate on that spot. Pick a spot as small as you can see. The size of an aspirin is a good rule of thumb. Concentrate then exercise your best shot. The practice pays off and you are a happier bowhunter.

If the deer is not broadside or on the same level as you it gets a little more complicated, but if you KNOW where the lungs are you can still pick that perfect spot.



In this illustration the rearmost of the front legs is the left leg, the leg showing the blood vessels is the deers right leg.

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"The future of bowhunting depends on effective education"..... Bill Wadsworth

A mere shadow of the man I once was... Me!

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#3059099 - 12/02/12 06:25 AM Re: shoulder vs liver/gut shots [Re: Hoss]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

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Hoss,
GREAT info. Love the diagrams.

In answer to the OP, the most frequent shot of the two mentioned, has DEFINITELY been the liver, for me, though I have hit several in the shoulder "girdle", scapular crest, scapula, and humerus. Some with good results, some bad.

But ALL of the deer I hit in the liver died. I did not recover all, but they all died.

Your question wanted to know which is most common of the ones I made, and which I preferred.

I definitely prefer the liver. I can find a liver hit deer, most of the time. As long as dogs, people, or coyotes don't push it.

We refer to liver hit deer as gut shot. Because most of the time, the arrow will also pass through stomach, lung, or intestines, or a combination of these as well as the liver. Though some elevated shots make it possible to hit liver only, it is rare.

Liver shot deer can die VERY quickly, or take several hours to die. It simply depends on luck and wether your head sliced a major artery on the path.

I have seen stomach hit deer die within seconds of pass through. But then, the arrow passed through the pyloric artery within the stomach.

I have also seen liver hit deer die within seconds of the shot. Again, major artery slicing involved.

I have also seen butt shot deer fall in sight. But the femoral artery or aorta was cut.

And deer hit too far back and high, just in front of hips (arrow smells like P-P) have fallen over in sight. This is a kidney shot, very deadly but too small a target.

Hard, thick, bony areas and mature deer and arrows do not mix well at all. Like Radar said. Avoid the shoulder.

And Hoss, personally for me, I do not like it when I shoot where you are suggesting and the deer reacts to the twang of the string. That drop has put many arrows smack in that leg bone. (one time I will never forget, that leg was attatched to a 130 class buck) . I shoot BEHIND the crease and angle a tad forward.


Edited by 102 (12/02/12 06:28 AM)
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Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
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#3061011 - 12/03/12 10:38 AM Re: shoulder vs liver/gut shots [Re: 102]
catman529
spiderboy
16 Point


Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 16278
Loc: Franklin TN

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thanks for the info Hoss and 102.

no question liver shots are deadly. I think I heard my buck crash within a minute of shooting him but I waited 45 mins to track the blood. he was stone dead when I found him, and yes the arrow did hit part of the gut too so I hosed him out when I got him home. big bodied 3.5 year old, glad I hit the liver and not the shoulder. with my poundage I would never have gotten past the shoulder blade.
_________________________
Haven't been this excited about deer season

...since last deer season

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#3061218 - 12/03/12 12:34 PM Re: shoulder vs liver/gut shots [Re: catman529]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

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Trust me cat,
I know of NOBODY that shoots enough poundage to adequately penetrat a 200 pound scapular crest or ball joint and recover the animal.

As I stated earlier, some gut shot deer fall in sight while others live for several hours. Just depends on blood loss.
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

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#3062343 - 12/04/12 02:10 AM Re: shoulder vs liver/gut shots [Re: 102]
Hoss
TnDeer Old Timer
8 Point


Registered: 02/14/00
Posts: 1459
Loc: Hendersonville , TN

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102 thanks on the compliment on the graphics. I do not own the rights to them they are Property of the National Bowhunter Education Program.

I have not had much problem with deer dropping at the sound of my bow, as long as the deer is calm and not alerted to me. If a deer is suspicious or jumpy I may aim an inch or so lower but that is about it. The only deer I have hit in the scapula or in the spinous process was due to me executing a poor shot (I am not implying that is the case for you, it is just my experience). I do not like to hold much lower than 3 inches because if the deer doesn't drop then I end up with brisket or or sternum shot.
Most of my deer are taken from a treestand and in that case I want the exit to be in the crease or just in front of the crease on the opposite side. But you have to learn to imagine where that spot is when looking at the on side of the deer, and that takes some practice. So from a treestand my advice is to shoot for where the arrow will come out. If the angle is sharp, like where you would need to enter in the ham area to get that exit in the crease or I call it the elbow, wait for a little less of an angle. Even if that means letting this one walk.
_________________________
"The future of bowhunting depends on effective education"..... Bill Wadsworth

A mere shadow of the man I once was... Me!

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#3062370 - 12/04/12 04:43 AM Re: shoulder vs liver/gut shots [Re: Hoss]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4028
Loc: Tennessee

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Good advice Hoss!
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

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