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#307164 - 07/20/07 07:11 PM Re: Baiting vs. Food Plots [Re: backstraps]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4276
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: backstraps
BSk, you make some good points....I can agree with if it grows out of the ground it isnt bait...if it is poured out, it is bait...but I would also like to think if it grows out of the ground and is less than say 3-5 acre plot it is bait...because given the right deer population and time of year, an acre of foilage wont last long as primary source of food. As for the comment made by another user people who doesnt have land is against fod plots...not true I have several hundred acres to hunt. I have food plots, due to the fact they are legal...but still in my mind they are no different than having a broadcast feeder with other suppliments. Millet, corn, etc



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#308273 - 07/21/07 11:28 PM Re: Baiting vs. Food Plots [Re: BSK]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

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Seems to me the disease factor is null and void...here is why...

It is illegal to hunt over bait, feeders, food, etc. All of which (from what I am understanding) increase the risk of disease spread (this used as PART of why they make rules for not hunting over bait).

However a person could feed deer and other wildlife all year long in TN as long as all of it is removed 10 days before hunting takes place. So what is the difference in feeding (baiting) the last few months when they have been fed all year anyway?

I thought that the main reasons for not allowing baiting stemed from the "fair chase" mentality and food plots were the loop hole in the law because it would be too hard to define agricultural practices when one man is hunting over a field he planted for hunting and another man is hunting over a field planted by a farmer...what if the hunter over the "food plot" was the farmer? or is a farmer?
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"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#308369 - 07/22/07 07:58 AM Re: Baiting vs. Food Plots [Re: Stalker]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Stalker,

You are correct that mosr baiting laws in the past have involved the issue of "fair chase." However, you will see more and more states passing no baiting or feeding laws over health concerns in the near future. With nasty new contagious diseases popping up, state agencies are growing rightfully concerned about disease spread issues.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#308429 - 07/22/07 09:45 AM Re: Baiting vs. Food Plots [Re: BSK]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Stalker,

You are correct that mosr baiting laws in the past have involved the issue of "fair chase." However, you will see more and more states passing no baiting or feeding laws over health concerns in the near future. With nasty new contagious diseases popping up, state agencies are growing rightfully concerned about disease spread issues.


So, how do you think the future laws will view a person who has feeders filled with corn from January (after season ends) thru 3 weeks from bow season and has 1 acre sized food plots (2 on 120 acres) and six large mieral lick locations? Who manages the land, clearing brush, mowing, feeding, seeding, uses trail cams to verify progress, and works the land every couple weeks or so all year. This is what I do. I ensure that I am following the laws on baiting and if my feeders are not empty 15 days out from bow season I remove them completely?


Edited by Stalker (07/22/07 09:48 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#308476 - 07/22/07 10:14 AM Re: Baiting vs. Food Plots [Re: strutandrut]
pety221
10 Point


Registered: 02/18/06
Posts: 4570
Loc: whitwell

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 Originally Posted By: strutandrut
here we go again

same crap diffrent day
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#308484 - 07/22/07 10:26 AM Re: Baiting vs. Food Plots [Re: Stalker]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Stalker
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Stalker,

You are correct that mosr baiting laws in the past have involved the issue of "fair chase." However, you will see more and more states passing no baiting or feeding laws over health concerns in the near future. With nasty new contagious diseases popping up, state agencies are growing rightfully concerned about disease spread issues.


So, how do you think the future laws will view a person who has feeders filled with corn from January (after season ends) thru 3 weeks from bow season and has 1 acre sized food plots (2 on 120 acres) and six large mieral lick locations? Who manages the land, clearing brush, mowing, feeding, seeding, uses trail cams to verify progress, and works the land every couple weeks or so all year. This is what I do. I ensure that I am following the laws on baiting and if my feeders are not empty 15 days out from bow season I remove them completely?


They will simply pass no feeding and no baiting laws. Basically, grow it out of the ground, OK. Provide it out of a feeder, illegal.

_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#308671 - 07/22/07 02:32 PM Re: Baiting vs. Food Plots [Re: pety221]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

Offline
 Originally Posted By: pety221
 Originally Posted By: strutandrut
here we go again

same crap diffrent day


Its pretty easy not to get sick of it...do'nt get involved.
_________________________
"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#308673 - 07/22/07 02:34 PM Re: Baiting vs. Food Plots [Re: grundsow]
Stalker
8 Point


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Greene / Cocke County

Offline
Thanks BSK...for your time and input.
_________________________
"A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson


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#309710 - 07/23/07 11:17 AM Re: Baiting vs. Food Plots [Re: BSK]
grundsow
4 Point


Registered: 04/03/01
Posts: 284
Loc: Berks County, PA

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 Quote:
I thought that the main reasons for not allowing baiting stemed from the "fair chase" mentality

Boone & Crockett Regulations clearly classify bait as “fair chase”. And, Pope & Young doesn’t reject it either.

 Quote:
Again, diseases can and will spread naturally, but why would we want to increase those risks? In addition, the artifical feeding of wildlife may be causing major changes in wildlife utilization of the habitat and causing all sorts of other problems. And there is the problems associated with molds and diseases that grow on the feed. Some of the byproducts of those molds are very nasty and can be deadly to wildlife.

Why then do you suppose QDMA has articles in support of supplemental feeding and/or baiting with salt/minerals, etc?

 Quote:
They will simply pass no feeding and no baiting laws. Basically, grow it out of the ground, OK. Provide it out of a feeder, illegal.

Again, if the idea is to prevent disease, why give food-plotters a free pass to concentrate deer? Why not do something like regulate SIZE of plot too, the same way bait pile size is sometimes regulated?

I don’t know, but I read that report and man it just seems like it’s difficult to draw any real conclusions. I mean, first of all baiting and supplemental feeding are lumped together, which seems to me to give baiting a bad rap by association.

And then the bad things about feeding appear to be more linked to overpopulation than feeding itself. Sure “feeding” could facilitate disease transmission, but isn’t high deer density a bigger issue?

For example, in the traditional deer hunting destination of northcentral PA, the overwinter density is often down into the single digits nowadays (based on infrared counts). Can those numbers really result in “dangerous concentrations” of deer around bait sites?

Also interesting to me was that the success rates of hunting over bait vs. without were conflicting. But meanwhile “sharpshooter” deer reduction services and Game Commission deer studies always use bait.

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#310913 - 07/24/07 07:21 AM Re: Baiting vs. Food Plots [Re: grundsow]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
Boone & Crockett Regulations clearly classify bait as “fair chase”. And, Pope & Young doesn’t reject it either.

I'm really not interested in what B&C or P&Y have to say. However, I'm very interested in what the non-hunting public thinks, and they--no matter what study you look at--overwhelmingky dislike bait and believe it is unfair. The non-hunting public will decide our future (only 5% of the U.S. population hunts).


Why then do you suppose QDMA has articles in support of supplemental feeding and/or baiting with salt/minerals, etc?

Because in some situations, like the near desert environment of west and south TX, supplemental feeding is necessary to sustain a viable deer population. The carrying capacity of these environments fluctuates so drastically from year to year depending on rainfall. Other situations exist where supplemental feeding is the only way to produce a truly healthy deer population (Limited Potential [LP] habitat).

However, that said, I'm deeply opposed to any supplemental feeding unless absolutely necessary.

So far, disease problems have not been linked to salt licks. But the potential is there for CWD transmission at salt licks (but not other diseases due to the high saline content of the lick, which will kill all living organisms).


Again, if the idea is to prevent disease, why give food-plotters a free pass to concentrate deer? Why not do something like regulate SIZE of plot too, the same way bait pile size is sometimes regulated?

Because there is a huge difference in the way deer feed in a small plot than the way they feed at a feeder or bait pile. In a small food plot they are not placing their mouths directly into the same spot, while at a feeder or bait pile, every mouth is placed into the same location in rapid succession.


I don’t know, but I read that report and man it just seems like it’s difficult to draw any real conclusions.

Are you serious? I feel that report is about as damning as it can get concerning supplemental feeding and baiting. Different perspective I guess.


I mean, first of all baiting and supplemental feeding are lumped together, which seems to me to give baiting a bad rap by association.

Which it should. They are equally as dangerous.


And then the bad things about feeding appear to be more linked to overpopulation than feeding itself. Sure “feeding” could facilitate disease transmission, but isn’t high deer density a bigger issue?

Absolutely. It isn't just a disease issue. It is also a "misuse" issue. Many who supplementally feed do so for the wrong reasons and use poor judgement about the effect of the supplemental feeding. They do not recongnize the signs of the damage they are doing through increased population and encouraging that increased population to concetrate their feeding near and at the feeders.

Supplemental feeding and baiting are complex, multifaceted issues. But the scientific concensus is they are both bad, for various reasons. I would avoid them both. Outside of TX, I have never recommended supplemental feeding to a client. In fact, I try my best to discourage any feeding at all other than habitat improvements.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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