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#3041906 - 11/20/12 10:18 AM BSK/others advice on discouraged management?
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1326
Loc: south TN

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Long read, sorry.
We have own a small piece of property ,68 acres, and my friend owns/leases about 120 more, all in the same block of woods. We have had this for going on five years. We do not have time or really the places to put up summer time nutritional food plots because we have cows on it too. Basically all we do, which may not be enough, is let young little deer walk and try to shoot as many or a few more does as bucks. We have shot a few young bucks that probably should have passed but not so many that we should have problems like we do.
Out of these few years, I have killed one mature 8 pt. which was out first year, and we found a dead ten point last winter, do not know what killed him and never seen him that we know of.
Since this is the fifth year, most would think that we should finally start seeing good bucks. We haven't though. Just same ole small yearlings and 2.5 year olds that have decent 6 or eight point racks.
I haven't killed a buck in almost three years. Yall think we should continue or just shoot what we think the land gives us which is like 80-90 inch 2.5 year old eights?
I know it isn't alot of land, and that is probably our main problem. Neighbors shooting the deer that we pass. Nothing we can do about that.
Sorry for the long read, but any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks!

and BTW, I have killed two nice 8s, one 3.5 plus the first year we hunted, measured about 115, and another 2.5 the second year we hunted measure probably 100 to 110. The dead ten point we found was probably 130-140, great deer. Friend killed two 2.5s the second year but that is it, my brother and friend killed two probably 3.5s the second year. Sorry if confusing.
I could be wishing for too much though. I just thought this would be the year we really start seeing them.


Edited by woodsman87 (11/20/12 10:25 AM)

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#3041982 - 11/20/12 10:53 AM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: woodsman87]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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I'm not sure I got the count right, but three 3 1/2s and three 2 1/2s harvested from 68 and 120-acre nearby (but not adjacent?) properties sounds pretty good. With that amount of land, and no ability to greatly modify the habitat to make it more attractive, producing harvestable numbers of 2 1/2 year-old bucks and the occassional 3 1/2 year-old buck is, in most circumstances, the best you can hope for.

Having the ability to greatly alter the habitat and having more contiguous land would be required to expect more.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3041993 - 11/20/12 11:01 AM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: BSK]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1326
Loc: south TN

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Yes the land does connect to each other. And actually after typing it out I got to thinking to myself you know this aint been so bad to kill a few nice deer.
I may just start bow hunting it so I can be happy with taking 2.5 year old nice six and eight points.
I have just been frustrated this year and last year and the year before not seeing anything that I wanted to shoot.
Now that I have your opinion on it I feel much better about what I will do from here on.
Thanks!

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#3041998 - 11/20/12 11:05 AM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: woodsman87]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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And one other thought, what hunters see/kill, and what is really out there, are often two VERY different things. And that's what trail-cameras are for, to find out what is really out there. Most often, hunters/managers are shocked by what really exist.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3042008 - 11/20/12 11:09 AM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: BSK]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1326
Loc: south TN

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My friend has several trail cams, occasionally gets a good deer on one yearly, of course at night. And by good deer I mean probably 2.5 to 3.5 100-120 class 8pt. I have had only one trail cam on out place since we bought it, just don't feel like buying any more cameras. I put it in front of a mineral lick every summer and have never gotten a deer on it that I would shoot. Only does, fawns, and little 1.5 year old bucks.
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#3042133 - 11/20/12 12:49 PM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: woodsman87]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: woodsman87
I have had only one trail cam on out place since we bought it, just don't feel like buying any more cameras. I put it in front of a mineral lick every summer and have never gotten a deer on it that I would shoot. Only does, fawns, and little 1.5 year old bucks.


One comment of caution about trail-camera use in summer--that only tells you what is there in the summer. Bucks move around quite a bit within their annual range. During some portions of the year, they may only use one small section of their annual range. They may then shift to a completely different portion of their range in fall, and then again shift to another completely different part of their range for the rut. Some bucks literally have a portion of their range they only use during the rut.

My own personal property is 500 acres arranged in a rectangle one mile north-south by three quarters of a mile east-west. Only about a third of the bucks I will have to hunt during October through December actually use the property during the summer (and are picked up by trail-cameras over salt or bait in summer). Two-thirds of the bucks that will use the property October through December won't shift onto the property until after summer bachelor groups break up in early September. In fact, a full third of the bucks I have to hunt only use my property during the rut. They show up in late October or early November, stay during November, and then vanish in early December. Some of these bucks are the same bucks year after year, only showing up on camera primarily during November. Without running trail-cams all season, I would never know these bucks existed. If I see that much shifting around of bucks on three-quarters of a square mile, think of the shifting around that could be occurring on just 68 acres.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3042143 - 11/20/12 12:58 PM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: BSK]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1326
Loc: south TN

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Yea that makes sense too. I know there are good deer up there, like the first one I killed and the dead one that we found. I just don't know if I want to start shooting some of these young deer or not. I want them to grow up because I like shooting big bucks. But if I don't, somebody else will. I saw two beautiful six points on Saturday morning. Chasing does through the middle of our cow pastures. I know that they probably want last long. I have just became so unsure of what to do with deer like that. I said earlier that I haven't killed a buck in three years. Im about to start shooting! haha
I live out of state and paying 250 for a license every year and never killin em stinks!

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#3042190 - 11/20/12 01:22 PM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: woodsman87]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN

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I fully get that woodsman87. Heck, I teach people to practice QDM for a living. I practice it, to a certain extent, on my own land. But for myself and my family, we hunt for fun. We've stopped getting all hung up on trying to grow and kill "big" bucks. Ever since we stopped focusing so much on big bucks, we are having a lot more fun hunting. Now that doesn't mean we've gone back to killing anything with antlers, but if a nice 2 1/2 100-class 8-point comes by, we will shoot.

My kill for this year; a 100-class 8-point 2 1/2 year-old, and I had a blast hunting and killing him:

_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3042205 - 11/20/12 01:29 PM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: BSK]
woodsman87
8 Point


Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1326
Loc: south TN

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Yea, I would shoot him as soon as I could!
And another thing, I have a younger brother that is only 16 and hasn't killed but four or five deer, and my dad used to love to hunt but doesn't go any more except once or twice a year. I would rather them or my wife be shooting these nice ones that me so It is also like I save them. I kinda take roll call while hunting and then tell my brother what I been seeing so he will have confidence when he goes.
I am finally off work the next five days after today. They starting to chase so maybe I can get me one. And I seen that the weather for Friday-Sunday is going to be subperb big buck weather!
Thanks for your thoughts!

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#3042384 - 11/20/12 04:01 PM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: woodsman87]
AT Hiker
6 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 976
Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee

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One of the best topics I have read in a while, hunting at its best!
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In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks.
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#3042428 - 11/20/12 04:38 PM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: AT Hiker]
Wompuscat
6 Point


Registered: 10/26/11
Posts: 788
Loc: morgan/roane/cumberland co.lin...

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BSK, sorry if i missed it but what percent of summer buck pics do you get pics of during rut?
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#3042436 - 11/20/12 04:49 PM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: Wompuscat]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: wompuscat
BSK, sorry if i missed it but what percent of summer buck pics do you get pics of during rut?


Interestingly, back before we started intensively managing the habitat on our place, we would lose half of the summer bucks come bachelor group break-up in early September. They would vanish in early September, only to return the following summer. However, once we began improving the habitat from all mature hardwoods to broken sections of hardwood, early stage regrowth jungles, and a few food plots, we began to keep a higher and higher percentage of our summer bucks. In the last few years, almost no summer bucks have left--they virtually all stay year-round.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3042447 - 11/20/12 05:01 PM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: BSK]
Wompuscat
6 Point


Registered: 10/26/11
Posts: 788
Loc: morgan/roane/cumberland co.lin...

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: wompuscat
BSK, sorry if i missed it but what percent of summer buck pics do you get pics of during rut?


Interestingly, back before we started intensively managing the habitat on our place, we would lose half of the summer bucks come bachelor group break-up in early September. They would vanish in early September, only to return the following summer. However, once we began improving the habitat from all mature hardwoods to broken sections of hardwood, early stage regrowth jungles, and a few food plots, we began to keep a higher and higher percentage of our summer bucks. In the last few years, almost no summer bucks have left--they virtually all stay year-round.
I have seen the same thing.
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#3044584 - 11/22/12 07:41 AM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: Wompuscat]
diamond hunter
6 Point


Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 927
Loc: Goodlettsville Tennessee USA

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I think it would be good if you could block off a few acres of your land from the cows and cut the biggest trees as long as they arent mast trees and let an absolute jungle grow up there.You need thickets for big deer IMHO as well as solitude.Caging a bunch of fruit trees would be a type of feed to use around cows,planting honeysuckle on fence rows and then fertilizing it would be another,heck,you could run barbed wire parallel to a section of fencing and even that few feet of thick,overgrown mess that keeps the cows out would be attractive to the deer.I look at mature deer as animals who want absolutely no human contact in any way.Build them a house to hide in,made out of vines and overgrowth.
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#3049135 - 11/26/12 06:44 AM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: diamond hunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: diamond hunter
I think it would be good if you could block off a few acres of your land from the cows and cut the biggest trees as long as they arent mast trees and let an absolute jungle grow up there.You need thickets for big deer IMHO as well as solitude.


In my opinion, the #1 most important thing to have on a property for attracting and holding older bucks is thick cover and sanctuary from hunting pressure.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3050299 - 11/26/12 06:36 PM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: BSK]
blueridge
4 Point


Registered: 12/05/10
Posts: 417
Loc: hickman

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Ideally what percentage of your hunting property should be left in sanctuary thicket?
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#3050359 - 11/26/12 06:55 PM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: blueridge]
diamond hunter
6 Point


Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 927
Loc: Goodlettsville Tennessee USA

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99% \:D \:D
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#3050932 - 11/27/12 05:42 AM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: blueridge]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: blueridge
Ideally what percentage of your hunting property should be left in sanctuary thicket?


The more the better, but 20% would be a good target.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3052291 - 11/27/12 07:50 PM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: BSK]
lpo1981
6 Point


Registered: 01/20/12
Posts: 674
Loc: Dickson, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: blueridge
Ideally what percentage of your hunting property should be left in sanctuary thicket?


The more the better, but 20% would be a good target.

If you have 36 acres how much would be good for a thicket... Looking for away to hold deer better on my small piece of property...

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#3052740 - 11/28/12 06:42 AM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: lpo1981]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: lpo1981
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: blueridge
Ideally what percentage of your hunting property should be left in sanctuary thicket?


The more the better, but 20% would be a good target.

If you have 36 acres how much would be good for a thicket... Looking for away to hold deer better on my small piece of property...


At least 6 acres would be nice. And remember, for it to work as intended, it must be left alone (little to no human intrusion) at any time of year. It must be a true sanctuary from human contact.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3052871 - 11/28/12 07:23 AM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: BSK]
SJS
Spike


Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 94
Loc: Macomb Co,Mi / Houston Co,Tn

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BSK....well said! I think a lot of hunters fall into this category me included. It's all about having fun with the family and friends, shooting some deer and having the chance to take a nice one once in a while. I do what I can with the property but time, money and distance interfer with really going crazy with improvements. I posted this pic earlier, but it just shows the progression as my older son was the one with a doe just a mere 12 years ago and now he has shot a nice buck every year with him taking a 134 a couple of years ago. Hopefully, his younger brother will follow the same path. Good post woodsman87!!
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#3055143 - 11/29/12 01:30 PM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: BSK]
OHVATN
4 Point


Registered: 10/09/12
Posts: 398
Loc: Middle TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: lpo1981
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: blueridge
Ideally what percentage of your hunting property should be left in sanctuary thicket?


The more the better, but 20% would be a good target.

If you have 36 acres how much would be good for a thicket... Looking for away to hold deer better on my small piece of property...


At least 6 acres would be nice. And remember, for it to work as intended, it must be left alone (little to no human intrusion) at any time of year. It must be a true sanctuary from human contact.


A single 20% of total acreage sanctuary or what about 2 or 3 sanctuaries totalling 20% in the aggregate? Thanks.
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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard." H. L. Mencken

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#3055227 - 11/29/12 02:24 PM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: OHVATN]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: sds1961
A single 20% of total acreage sanctuary or what about 2 or 3 sanctuaries totalling 20% in the aggregate? Thanks.


That depends on how the property is hunted. If it is just one or two hunters, then a prefer a large, centrally located sanctuary. If multiple people hunt, I prefer to have multiple, smaller sanctuaries.

A large, centrally located sanctuary proabably works best biologically. But it will be hard for multiple hunters to hunt without stepping on each others' set-ups. With multiple hunters, multiple smaller sanctuaries will allow more hunting set-ups.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3056503 - 11/30/12 09:04 AM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: BSK]
Stick'n'String
10 Point


Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 2695
Loc: Nashville

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BSK,

Would it be acceptable/beneficial for these sanctuaries to only be hollows? In these hills we have several deep hollows that we never enter due to difficulty entering and inconsistent winds make them difficult to hunt anyhow. That said they probably aren't the "best" areas but when working with limited acreage are these acceptable or beneficial to set aside??
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#3059120 - 12/02/12 07:02 AM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: Stick'n'String]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: Stick'n'String
BSK,

Would it be acceptable/beneficial for these sanctuaries to only be hollows?


In ridge-and-hollow hardwoods, I think hollows and hillsides make the best sanctuaries.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3059137 - 12/02/12 07:17 AM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: BSK]
lpo1981
6 Point


Registered: 01/20/12
Posts: 674
Loc: Dickson, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Stick'n'String
BSK,

Would it be acceptable/beneficial for these sanctuaries to only be hollows?


In ridge-and-hollow hardwoods, I think hollows and hillsides make the best sanctuaries.

So would it be benificial to me on my small peice of property to go into the small draws/hollows and open them up a little with hinge cuts on smaller trees and tie down smaller ones that can be bent over to create thickets?

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#3059146 - 12/02/12 07:23 AM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: lpo1981]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Absolutely. But you will need to open that canopy up pretty good. Hollows already get less sunlight, so your canopy openings must be fairly substantial to get the regrowth you want.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3059193 - 12/02/12 07:54 AM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: BSK]
lpo1981
6 Point


Registered: 01/20/12
Posts: 674
Loc: Dickson, TN

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Thanks that's what I was looking for. Way my property lays I don't have a good area to make a large thicket around 20% but could go in the the 3 draws or hollows I have and make some small ones.
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#3063266 - 12/04/12 03:08 PM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: lpo1981]
String Music
8 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Knoxville

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 Originally Posted By: lpo1981
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Stick'n'String
BSK,

Would it be acceptable/beneficial for these sanctuaries to only be hollows?


In ridge-and-hollow hardwoods, I think hollows and hillsides make the best sanctuaries.

So would it be benificial to me on my small peice of property to go into the small draws/hollows and open them up a little with hinge cuts on smaller trees and tie down smaller ones that can be bent over to create thickets?


To me, sanctuaries are more important than food plots. If deer don't feel safe on your property, no amount of food will convince them to stay. You can bet any use of the food plots will be well after dark.

In saying this, we have two different typs of sanctuaries: bedding sanctuaries and working sanctuaries. The bedding sanctuaries are strategically located in areas that the deer prefer to bed in. With some exceptions, the over majority of the deer on our property prefer to bed high on ridges and points where they can see below them and smell anything behind them. We have simply enhanced these locations by hinge-cutting and felling trees. Most importantly, these locations are off limits year-round.

Working sanctuaries are areas that we thicken up every couple of years and aren't as die hard about them being completely off limits.

My advice would be to walk over your property very thoroughly after the season and take note of every deer bed you find. I'd be willing to bet some of BSK's money that most of the beds you find will be closer to the ridge tops than in the hollows.

Once you figure out where the deer prefer to bed, then you can start creating the sanctuaries. Although we have a couple centrally located sanctuaries, most of our sanctuaries are smaller and are located in known bedding areas.

As for hinge-cutting, I would start up high and create security cover for the deer to bed in and around. Deer are like bass- they hang near structure. Then you can start creating cover in the hollows.
_________________________
"For I know the plans I have for you..." Jer. 29:11


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#3063367 - 12/04/12 04:03 PM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: String Music]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
Loc: Nashville, TN

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Great stuff String Music. It sounds sacriledious, but I agree food plots can be over-rated as a management tool. Don't get me wrong, in certain circumstances they can be powerful and important weapons in the management quiver, but having worked on a lot of different properties across the country, sanctuary cover is usually the most important missing ingredient.

By the way, love the idea of the "working" sactuaries. Can I borrow that term?
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3064593 - 12/05/12 11:23 AM Re: BSK/others advice on discouraged management? [Re: BSK]
String Music
8 Point


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Knoxville

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I borrowed it from someone else, so feel free to borrow it from me!
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"For I know the plans I have for you..." Jer. 29:11


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