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#3005997 - 10/29/12 03:01 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: BSK]
hitek7
6 Point


Registered: 07/26/10
Posts: 555
Loc: Eva, AL

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
"Culling" does nothing but remove a deer from the population. You ABSOLUTELY CANNOT "improve antler genetics" by culling.


So bucks have no part of future antler genetics? If a doe is bred by a buck with "messed up" or inferior antler growth the doe does not have a chance of giving birth to a buck that will have "messed up" or inferior horns?

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#3006032 - 10/29/12 03:19 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: hitek7]
jb3
10 Point


Registered: 02/23/09
Posts: 4207
Loc: Burns, TN

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You'd be better off killing all the does that are passing that gene. Bet there are more of them then inferior bucks. Why does it matter if a deer has jacked up antlers?
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#3006040 - 10/29/12 03:21 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: hitek7]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65479
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: hitek7
 Originally Posted By: BSK
"Culling" does nothing but remove a deer from the population. You ABSOLUTELY CANNOT "improve antler genetics" by culling.


So bucks have no part of future antler genetics? If a doe is bred by a buck with "messed up" or inferior antler growth the doe does not have a chance of giving birth to a buck that will have "messed up" or inferior horns?


A bunch of different points to make on this topic:

First, bucks with "messed up racks," especially those with just one antler being "messed up," are usually due to injury to the antler pedicle, the buck's body, or to the growing antler while it was in velvet. Now antler-deformations caused by injuries to the growing antler or to the buck's body can fade away with time (not be repeated in future sets of antlers). But a deformed antler due to injury to the antler pedicle are usually permanent and often get worse with age (this is the most common cause for older bucks with one normal antler and the other antler being a malformed spike).

Second, the heritability (genetics) of antler characteristics is not well understood. It appears to be a very complex process, and not just a simple 50% from the mother and 50% from the father sort of thing. Although detailed studies have not been completed, the few studies that do exist show little relationship between father's and sons' antlers. In essence, all of the male offspring of a single buck will not produce simliar size/shape antlers, nor will any of the sons' antlers look like their father's in any measureable way. HOWEVER, the sons of a single mother often DO have similar antlers, in both shape and size. This suggests the mother's genetics play a larger role in male offsprings' future antlers than their father's genetics.

Lastly, in a free-ranging situation, most yearling bucks disperse from their birth ranges, taking their genetics with them, and often traveling miles away from their birth range before establishing a new adult range. All of these "dispersing" yearling bucks are replaced by yearling bucks also dispersing from their birth ranges miles away, bring in their "new" genetics. So even if the link between genetics and antler size could be determined, most of the older bucks that use a given property are not the offspring of the local bucks and does. The offspring of the local bucks and does left around their first birthdays and now live miles away. Because of this young buck dispersal process, you can never "concentrate" any male-based genetic traits in one area.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3006575 - 10/29/12 08:31 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: BSK]
creativomjh
Spike


Registered: 08/03/12
Posts: 70
Loc: West Tennessee

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Awesome info, BSK. thanks!
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#3006945 - 10/30/12 06:37 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
jbhtn
Spike


Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 83
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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He's still got milk around his mouth. Let him grow up!
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#3008949 - 10/31/12 10:08 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: jb3]
hitek7
6 Point


Registered: 07/26/10
Posts: 555
Loc: Eva, AL

Offline
 Originally Posted By: jb3
You'd be better off killing all the does that are passing that gene. Bet there are more of them then inferior bucks. Why does it matter if a deer has jacked up antlers?


Yes, but how is that determined (does that are passing the gene)? I am talking older bucks that just have smaller horns and bodies. We have some deer on our property that just seem like different breeds. There was one buck shot last year that was 4 years old and only weighed 125 lbs, 6 point. We see several deer like this every year but we have several iof heavier weight deer also. Does this gene not get passed along by the buck?

BSK, Good read, thanks for the info.

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#3009328 - 10/31/12 01:51 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
Legnip
4 Point


Registered: 03/14/12
Posts: 166
Loc: Brentwood, TN

Offline
He's too young.
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#3009360 - 10/31/12 02:10 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: hitek7]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65479
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: hitek7
 Originally Posted By: jb3
You'd be better off killing all the does that are passing that gene. Bet there are more of them then inferior bucks. Why does it matter if a deer has jacked up antlers?


Yes, but how is that determined (does that are passing the gene)? I am talking older bucks that just have smaller horns and bodies. We have some deer on our property that just seem like different breeds. There was one buck shot last year that was 4 years old and only weighed 125 lbs, 6 point. We see several deer like this every year but we have several iof heavier weight deer also. Does this gene not get passed along by the buck?


Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing whether an undersized mature deer is that way because of his genetics, or is undersized because of the life he has lead. If a deer is undernurished when they are young, they will be stunted for life. Some fascinating research is also strongly suggesting that if a deer's mother was underfed from just before she became pregnant through her pregnancy, that offspring will be stunted for life.

The role genetics plays in what a deer looks like (size-wise) is extraordinarily complicated, and the "outcome" (what a deer looks like) often has nothing to do with that deer's genetics.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3009577 - 10/31/12 04:34 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: BSK]
hitek7
6 Point


Registered: 07/26/10
Posts: 555
Loc: Eva, AL

Offline
Guess we will keep letting them walk, fun to see anyway. We always let the kids shoot them if they get a chance though.
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#3009582 - 10/31/12 04:40 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: hitek7]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65479
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
They are probably doing much more good in the herd than harm. The more older bucks you have--regardless of their size--the better the herd will function.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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