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#2998150 - 10/25/12 07:47 AM to cull or not to cull
creativomjh
Spike


Registered: 08/03/12
Posts: 70
Loc: West Tennessee

Offline
would yall give this little guy another year and see what happens?


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#2998158 - 10/25/12 07:58 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: creativomjh]
DntBrnDPig
8 Point


Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 2034
Loc: Cleveland, TN

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Of course. Unless you just wanted to eat him. That's a really young deer.
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#2998161 - 10/25/12 08:00 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: DntBrnDPig]
BlountArrow
8 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2340
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

Offline
Most East TN Hunters would say SHOOT!
Myself excluded.
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#2998184 - 10/25/12 08:17 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: BlountArrow]
Outdoor Enthusiast
6 Point


Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 961
Loc: Carthage, TN

Offline
He's just a little feller. I would not shoot him.
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#2998188 - 10/25/12 08:20 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: Outdoor Enthusiast]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64210
Loc: Nashville, TN

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"Culling" does nothing but remove a deer from the population. You ABSOLUTELY CANNOT "improve antler genetics" by culling.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2998222 - 10/25/12 08:31 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: BSK]
DOC1187
16 Point


Registered: 06/14/08
Posts: 11163
Loc: east tn

Offline
let him walk
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#2998256 - 10/25/12 08:47 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: DOC1187]
easy45
Non-Typical


Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 28204
Loc: Chester County

sleepy Online
No way for me, he would have 2 years, maybe even 3 before I even considered killed him
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#2998295 - 10/25/12 09:05 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: easy45]
ROUGH COUNTRY HUNTER
16 Point


Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 12396
Loc: FRANKLIN COUNTY

Offline
its a yearling
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#2998405 - 10/25/12 10:04 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: ROUGH COUNTRY HUNTER]
Elmer
6 Point


Registered: 09/01/11
Posts: 553
Loc: Ft. Campbell/Montgomery co.

Offline
BSK how do you improve antler genetics?
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I have hunted almost every day of my life.... the rest have been wasted

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#2998470 - 10/25/12 10:41 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: Elmer]
browning glock
4 Point


Registered: 12/28/11
Posts: 235
Loc: middle tn

Offline
take him out
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#2998502 - 10/25/12 10:50 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
BlountArrow
8 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2340
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

Offline
 Originally Posted By: browning glock
take him out


He's probably originally from East Tenn. ;\)
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"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
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#2998524 - 10/25/12 11:07 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
hunter drew
14 Point


Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 8306
Loc: henderson county TN Lexington

Offline
It's a spike. A year and a half old. No I wouldn't shoot him. 3.5 year old spike yes
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It is what it is

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#2998536 - 10/25/12 11:26 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: Elmer]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64210
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: P@Y
BSK how do you improve antler genetics?


You don't. Altering genetics of any kind in the wild is impossible.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2998558 - 10/25/12 11:43 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
Nealmeally
8 Point


Registered: 12/20/10
Posts: 1645
Loc: TN

Offline
Why "cull" him???????

He hasn't even had a chance to grow yet..

He may be a 150 in 3 years ...
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Hard work and patience will be rewarded.....sooner or later

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#2998603 - 10/25/12 12:08 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: Nealmeally]
Hit&Miss84
Spike


Registered: 09/11/12
Posts: 52
Loc: Kingsport, Tn

Offline
I might shoot em both, hard to tell what I'm going to to when somebody hands me a gun! Seriously though I think if you are trying to grow big bucks you should let him go and see what happens. If you let him go he may turn into a nice buck, if you shoot him he will just die.
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#2998648 - 10/25/12 12:32 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
Lawrence
8 Point


Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 1900
Loc: MT. Juliet Tennessee

Offline
No way
if you want meet shoot a doe
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#2998664 - 10/25/12 12:40 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: creativomjh]
creativomjh
Spike


Registered: 08/03/12
Posts: 70
Loc: West Tennessee

Offline
maybe i'll phrase my question differently. if i see him this year, i wouldn't shoot him anyways because he's a little guy. i've got a way bigger doe problem than antler genetics (which is a huge misconception).

i was really wondering, is he always going to be a unicorn? he's been on several of my cameras for months, so I'm pretty certain he's never had two. a cull deer at 3.5 or 1.5 is still a cull deer in my eyes.



Edited by creativomjh (10/25/12 12:42 PM)

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#2998672 - 10/25/12 12:46 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: creativomjh]
BlountArrow
8 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2340
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

Offline
Way too early for anyone to say he will always be "this" or "that". Give him a chance and see what happens. Like one guy said, all you can know is that at this point if you kill him he won't get any bigger - that I will guarantee \:\) .

Edited by BlountArrow (10/25/12 12:46 PM)
_________________________
"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
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#2998695 - 10/25/12 12:53 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: BlountArrow]
infoman jr.
10 Point


Registered: 10/05/03
Posts: 3281
Loc: Elizabethtown, KY

content Online
Ahh I'd let him live. He might surprise you.
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NRA Lifetime Member

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#2998730 - 10/25/12 01:10 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
Rockhound
10 Point


Registered: 04/04/11
Posts: 2659
Loc: Lawrence Co. TN

Offline
Hes just a baby
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Isaiah 40:31.... Those who wait upon The Lord .....shall renew there strength ......

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#2998898 - 10/25/12 03:10 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: creativomjh]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64210
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: creativomjh
i was really wondering, is he always going to be a unicorn? he's been on several of my cameras for months, so I'm pretty certain he's never had two. a cull deer at 3.5 or 1.5 is still a cull deer in my eyes.


I can see in the picture that he at least has a pedicle on the missing-antler side, so there is the possibility he will grow normally paired antlers in the futre. Some bucks do not develop a pedicle on one side, hence are destined to always have only one antler.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2998920 - 10/25/12 03:29 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
StalkingWolf
8 Point


Registered: 05/08/01
Posts: 1328
Loc: Dyersburg, TN, USA

Offline
pass
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#2998942 - 10/25/12 03:54 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: StalkingWolf]
Stumpy
Spike


Registered: 04/21/09
Posts: 84
Loc: NW TN

Offline
The only way to have old mature bucks is to pass the young deer. really no way to tell what this guy will do in another 3 years unless he lives.
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#2998950 - 10/25/12 03:58 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: Stumpy]
Dbllunger
10 Point


Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 4224
Loc: Middle Tennessee

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I would not shoot this deer. Way to young. Let him grow a few more years at least to see what happens.
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#2999267 - 10/25/12 07:36 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: Dbllunger]
Phil1979
10 Point


Registered: 11/05/11
Posts: 4782
Loc: Arlington, TN

Offline
Let him go.
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#2999359 - 10/25/12 08:22 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: Phil1979]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 18645
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

Offline
I would only shoot him if I considered him to be a "trophy" buck (to me). Prefer to eat does, so main reason I take bucks is for antlers (although I do eat the buck venison as well).

Many people consider ANY antlered buck a "trophy", so if he's a trophy to you (and legal), have at it. Just don't complain about there being no larger antlered bucks around when you shoot them before they can grow larger antlers. Regarding that particular 1-horned buck depicted above, he's only a yearling, and he will very likely have what most hunters consider a "large" rack should he live to 4 1/2 or older. If he doesn't, he'll be a trophy to me because he's an "older" buck, even if he then just has one gigantic spike on his head. \:\) But right now, he's first and foremost a yearling buck.

IMO, CULLING is just an excuse to kill a particular buck that doesn't meet the standards of one's peers, while the hunter doing the "culling" actually considers that particular buck a trophy.

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#2999365 - 10/25/12 08:24 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: Phil1979]
rem270
16 Point


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 19977
Loc: south fulton

Offline
no way id shoot
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#2999603 - 10/25/12 11:16 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: easy45]
W.Seay
14 Point


Registered: 01/17/06
Posts: 7991
Loc: Collierville,TN.

Offline
 Originally Posted By: easy45
No way for me, he would have 2 years, maybe even 3 before I even considered killed him


X2
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To one with faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.

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#2999661 - 10/26/12 05:09 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: BSK]
Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point


Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 11738
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee

content Online
 Originally Posted By: BSK
"Culling" does nothing but remove a deer from the population. You ABSOLUTELY CANNOT "improve antler genetics" by culling.
What he says.
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#3000913 - 10/26/12 08:04 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: creativomjh]
Tikkabuck
10 Point


Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 4027
Loc: Humphreys,Co

Offline
Na let the little guy eat some.
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A government big enough to give you everything you want,is big enough to take away everything you have.Thomas Jefferson

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#3001019 - 10/26/12 09:07 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: Tikkabuck]
Columbia Scott
6 Point


Registered: 01/23/11
Posts: 985
Loc: Columbia, Tennessee

Offline
Last year I had one that looked just like that follow me to the stand then lie down beneath me until I walked out for the evening. I shut him behind a gate to keep him from following me. Pass.
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The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth,upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fish; into your hand are they delivered.

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#3001066 - 10/26/12 09:41 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: DntBrnDPig]
buckhorn40
Non-Typical


Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 27605
Loc: Crossville

Offline
Let him walk!
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#3002013 - 10/27/12 02:47 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
HOOK
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 05/01/99
Posts: 15733
Loc: Rutherford County, TN

Offline
There is no such thing as a cull buck....you either shoot it or your don't....
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Everytime I see you....there you are.

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#3002609 - 10/27/12 09:06 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
redblood
16 Point


Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 13851
Loc: Lewisburg

Offline
the only thing he has working against him is youth. let him stroll
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#3003353 - 10/28/12 11:31 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: Rockhound]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25303
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Rockhound
Hes just a baby
yep
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#3003356 - 10/28/12 11:32 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: Elmer]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25303
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

Offline
 Originally Posted By: P@Y
BSK how do you improve antler genetics?
Haul in a WHOLE bunch of dirt from western KY! \:\)
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#3003396 - 10/28/12 11:54 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
DeerKiller2012
6 Point


Registered: 11/15/11
Posts: 761
Loc: Southern Middle TN

Offline
thats a yearling , but if it's a trophy to you, bust him.
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#3003479 - 10/28/12 12:42 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
LA man
16 Point


Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 19842
Loc: spencer, tn/houma, la.

Offline
let him walk
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GO LSU

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#3003535 - 10/28/12 01:23 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
Tar12
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 345
Loc: USA Indiana

Offline
If you have ever seen or watched any of the studies done you would not pull the trigger just yet. It was amazing to me to see what a so called"cull" could turn into.
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#3005882 - 10/29/12 02:01 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: Stumpy]
DaveB
10 Point


Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 3133
Loc: Shelby County

Offline
Make a nice sandwhich, that's about all that's there, he doesn't even go wuff, he prolly has a lisp and goes fffff. Bit young I'd say. Maybe born early this year, those east side things start really early, so's I heard tell.
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#3005997 - 10/29/12 03:01 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: BSK]
hitek7
4 Point


Registered: 07/26/10
Posts: 467
Loc: Eva, AL

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
"Culling" does nothing but remove a deer from the population. You ABSOLUTELY CANNOT "improve antler genetics" by culling.


So bucks have no part of future antler genetics? If a doe is bred by a buck with "messed up" or inferior antler growth the doe does not have a chance of giving birth to a buck that will have "messed up" or inferior horns?

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#3006032 - 10/29/12 03:19 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: hitek7]
jb3
10 Point


Registered: 02/23/09
Posts: 3995
Loc: Burns, TN

Offline
You'd be better off killing all the does that are passing that gene. Bet there are more of them then inferior bucks. Why does it matter if a deer has jacked up antlers?
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#3006040 - 10/29/12 03:21 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: hitek7]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64210
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: hitek7
 Originally Posted By: BSK
"Culling" does nothing but remove a deer from the population. You ABSOLUTELY CANNOT "improve antler genetics" by culling.


So bucks have no part of future antler genetics? If a doe is bred by a buck with "messed up" or inferior antler growth the doe does not have a chance of giving birth to a buck that will have "messed up" or inferior horns?


A bunch of different points to make on this topic:

First, bucks with "messed up racks," especially those with just one antler being "messed up," are usually due to injury to the antler pedicle, the buck's body, or to the growing antler while it was in velvet. Now antler-deformations caused by injuries to the growing antler or to the buck's body can fade away with time (not be repeated in future sets of antlers). But a deformed antler due to injury to the antler pedicle are usually permanent and often get worse with age (this is the most common cause for older bucks with one normal antler and the other antler being a malformed spike).

Second, the heritability (genetics) of antler characteristics is not well understood. It appears to be a very complex process, and not just a simple 50% from the mother and 50% from the father sort of thing. Although detailed studies have not been completed, the few studies that do exist show little relationship between father's and sons' antlers. In essence, all of the male offspring of a single buck will not produce simliar size/shape antlers, nor will any of the sons' antlers look like their father's in any measureable way. HOWEVER, the sons of a single mother often DO have similar antlers, in both shape and size. This suggests the mother's genetics play a larger role in male offsprings' future antlers than their father's genetics.

Lastly, in a free-ranging situation, most yearling bucks disperse from their birth ranges, taking their genetics with them, and often traveling miles away from their birth range before establishing a new adult range. All of these "dispersing" yearling bucks are replaced by yearling bucks also dispersing from their birth ranges miles away, bring in their "new" genetics. So even if the link between genetics and antler size could be determined, most of the older bucks that use a given property are not the offspring of the local bucks and does. The offspring of the local bucks and does left around their first birthdays and now live miles away. Because of this young buck dispersal process, you can never "concentrate" any male-based genetic traits in one area.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3006575 - 10/29/12 08:31 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: BSK]
creativomjh
Spike


Registered: 08/03/12
Posts: 70
Loc: West Tennessee

Offline
Awesome info, BSK. thanks!
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#3006945 - 10/30/12 06:37 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
jbhtn
Spike


Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 83
Loc: Middle Tennessee

Offline
He's still got milk around his mouth. Let him grow up!
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#3008949 - 10/31/12 10:08 AM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: jb3]
hitek7
4 Point


Registered: 07/26/10
Posts: 467
Loc: Eva, AL

Offline
 Originally Posted By: jb3
You'd be better off killing all the does that are passing that gene. Bet there are more of them then inferior bucks. Why does it matter if a deer has jacked up antlers?


Yes, but how is that determined (does that are passing the gene)? I am talking older bucks that just have smaller horns and bodies. We have some deer on our property that just seem like different breeds. There was one buck shot last year that was 4 years old and only weighed 125 lbs, 6 point. We see several deer like this every year but we have several iof heavier weight deer also. Does this gene not get passed along by the buck?

BSK, Good read, thanks for the info.

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#3009328 - 10/31/12 01:51 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
Legnip
4 Point


Registered: 03/14/12
Posts: 157
Loc: Brentwood, TN

Offline
He's too young.
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#3009360 - 10/31/12 02:10 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: hitek7]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64210
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: hitek7
 Originally Posted By: jb3
You'd be better off killing all the does that are passing that gene. Bet there are more of them then inferior bucks. Why does it matter if a deer has jacked up antlers?


Yes, but how is that determined (does that are passing the gene)? I am talking older bucks that just have smaller horns and bodies. We have some deer on our property that just seem like different breeds. There was one buck shot last year that was 4 years old and only weighed 125 lbs, 6 point. We see several deer like this every year but we have several iof heavier weight deer also. Does this gene not get passed along by the buck?


Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing whether an undersized mature deer is that way because of his genetics, or is undersized because of the life he has lead. If a deer is undernurished when they are young, they will be stunted for life. Some fascinating research is also strongly suggesting that if a deer's mother was underfed from just before she became pregnant through her pregnancy, that offspring will be stunted for life.

The role genetics plays in what a deer looks like (size-wise) is extraordinarily complicated, and the "outcome" (what a deer looks like) often has nothing to do with that deer's genetics.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3009577 - 10/31/12 04:34 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: BSK]
hitek7
4 Point


Registered: 07/26/10
Posts: 467
Loc: Eva, AL

Offline
Guess we will keep letting them walk, fun to see anyway. We always let the kids shoot them if they get a chance though.
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#3009582 - 10/31/12 04:40 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: hitek7]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64210
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
They are probably doing much more good in the herd than harm. The more older bucks you have--regardless of their size--the better the herd will function.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#3010035 - 10/31/12 11:03 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
MossyOakChick
6 Point


Registered: 10/12/11
Posts: 655
Loc: Baxter, Tennessee

Offline
I don't think he has a genetic problem. Probably damaged pedicel.
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#3012686 - 11/02/12 01:04 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: browning glock]
DeadEyeShooter
Spike


Registered: 10/14/12
Posts: 92
Loc: Tennessee

Offline
Thats a tiny buck give him 3yrs then hell be a shooter
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#3013226 - 11/02/12 07:48 PM Re: to cull or not to cull [Re: DeadEyeShooter]
airdawg11
Spike


Registered: 09/20/12
Posts: 22
Loc: Tn

Offline
People used to think, once a spike always spike. Couldn't be further from the truth. A spike is just fawn that was born late and didn't have the time to generate much antler growth. There have been studies where spikes have the potential grow to be larger than year 1/2 old 6's n 8's in the long run. All genetics. As for the unicorn thing, you'll never know til next year if he is still around. Plus deer with funky antlers are actually pretty cool to shoot, given he has a problem with his antlers. Shoot ya a doe instead n wait for the big boy! Good luck!
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