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#2994728 - 10/23/12 09:29 AM Savage and 325 gr FTX
CR500AFX
6 Point


Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 537
Loc: ANDERSON CO.

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Decided to try the 45/70 325 gr FTX in my savage smokeless ML. MMP orange sabot with 44gr 5744 at 1925 FPS. The groups at 120 yards are just ok at 2 inches. However, the bullets are tumbling at that range, as evident keyholes in the target. None of the sabots are blown. I have tried different charges and it loads too tight with BCR sabots(bending ramrod}. I really wanted this combo to work, as it would be effective at short and long ranges. BTW, this gun is a tight shooter with 300gr XTP's, hornaday .458 300gr HP and .458 barnes original using the same powder load and a BCR sabot. I experimented with N120 early on but did not have good accuracy, but never tried it with these bullets. I would rather not change to a powder that is not as reliable. Secondly, I realize the Barnes original takes a lot to expand. Does anyone have experience using them on boiler room shots at ranges of 50 to 200 yards? Blood trail, after shot run distance, etc. Any suggestions?
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#2994751 - 10/23/12 09:39 AM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: CR500AFX]
cecil30-30
16 Point


Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 13987
Loc: Morgan Co

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From what I read on dougsmessage board,that the 300gr barnes originals is the bee's knees when it comes to deer..And are you sure the bullets are tumbling? Seems like if the 325gr ftx was tumbling,you wouldn't be getting a 2inch group at 120yds.
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#2994783 - 10/23/12 10:00 AM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: cecil30-30]
tasaman
8 Point


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1010
Loc: Woodlawn, TN

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I have read that some were getting great results with the 325s. Might want to push them just a bit fast than that. 5744 is a wonderful easy to ignite powder but does not provide very good speed with heavy bullets. I would lean toward the N120 or 4198. Accuracy and reliability can be improved by duplexing with your 5744. I won't give recipes here but they are readily available on the green board. Perhaps you might want to switch to the orange MMP sabot and see if that helps. I use BCR with Barnes Originals and it does fine. Some guns just don't like them and the orange will do better.
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#2996211 - 10/24/12 12:12 AM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: tasaman]
holstonangler
6 Point


Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 937
Loc: Johnson City

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Thats one of the loads i use, i've never had one tumble on me. Here's a couple important questions. Have you looked at the sabots closely after shooting them & how long of wait time between shots?
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#2996551 - 10/24/12 09:22 AM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: holstonangler]
CR500AFX
6 Point


Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 537
Loc: ANDERSON CO.

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The sabot (orange MMP)shows no damage. It will tumble on a cold barrel. For subsequent shots, I use a cool rod in the warmer months but in the cooler months I sit the gun aside and shoot others. The groups are consistently 2 inches. I was happy in the summer with this load. This past sunday,10/21, I went to the range to confirm POI. I took a friend, his ML, the 25-06, and 30-06. I noticed the bullet holes were a little ragged and not "round". It began to eat at me that night. Monday, 10/22, I went back. The first 3 shots were a little ragged. I increased the charge from 5744 44gr to 44.5gr and the next shot was keyholed. I dropped to 43gr and the holes were still ragged. I can't use the BCR with this bullet as it is far too tight. 5744 is a reliable powder and I didn't get good accuracy with N120. If I change powders, it has to be reliable. I would rather use 5744 with a lesser projectile than chance a misfire. Crunch time is nearing and this dog has to be ready to hunt. I have went back to the Hornaday .458 300gr HP for now, and with the same poi to 200 yds, the BO will be my hog load. I will continue load development after 1/6/2013. Note: per the hornaday ballistics chart, this bullet has a MV of 2000 FPS from a 45/70 and 2225 from a Marlin 450. Again, I am at 1925 FPS with 44gr. I did not chrono the 44.5gr shot that keyholed. Your advice and suggestions are much appreciated and.
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#2996849 - 10/24/12 12:20 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: CR500AFX]
tasaman
8 Point


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1010
Loc: Woodlawn, TN

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Good sound thinking CR. It won't hurt to keep shooting with new loads just don't move your scope from your known good shooting load and you'll be fine. I'm really wanting you to get those 325s shooting well I would like to try them someday just in case I go moose hunting. I'm not kidding about that one I have friends in Maine that want me to go with them I just can't afford to go. lol
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#2996867 - 10/24/12 12:34 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: tasaman]
Rockhound
10 Point


Registered: 04/04/11
Posts: 2659
Loc: Lawrence Co. TN

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 Originally Posted By: tasaman
Good sound thinking CR. It won't hurt to keep shooting with new loads just don't move your scope from your known good shooting load and you'll be fine. I'm really wanting you to get those 325s shooting well I would like to try them someday just in case I go moose hunting. I'm not kidding about that one I have friends in Maine that want me to go with them I just can't afford to go. lol


They would have to run me off lol
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#2999383 - 10/25/12 08:32 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: Rockhound]
Tar12
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 345
Loc: USA Indiana

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I have shot literally hundreds of the .458 BOs in the Savage 50 cals. You can expect a .458 hole in and a 1.5-1-3/4 .in exit on avg. I personally think that there is no better bullet for the .50 cal as they do not over expand and cause uneccessary damage. You will rarely find a BO as they always exit creating 2 holes in which I prefer. They do have the thickest jacket of any 300 grn bullet available for the .50. This bullet was designed as a dangerous game round by Barnes years ago and used primarily in the .45-70 gov. rounds. It will plow through bone and take a deer at any angle. I tested this bullet from every angle. It is also a solid MOA performer to 300 yds.The BO prefers a strong kick in the backside. My favorite is 60 grn of N120,HBCR,FED 209 a. This nets you somewhere around the 2450 FPS range on avg.You will have a avg.35-40 yds death run with a boiler room shot.ALWAYS a blood trail that is not needed.Shoulder shot..DRT.
Here is a 300 yd MOA 3 in ctc group out of the .50 cal I built for my son for his first smokeless gun using the above mentioned load...








Edited by Tar12 (10/25/12 08:41 PM)

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#3026862 - 11/10/12 07:43 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: Tar12]
CR500AFX
6 Point


Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 537
Loc: ANDERSON CO.

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The problem may have been found. Opening day, temp approx 45 degrees, I took a deer at approx 115 yds. I reloaded a follow-up shot that wasn't needed. The gun stayed loaded for for 3 days. Tuesday morning I missed a buck at 85 yards. I reloaded and it stayed loaded for 2 days. Thursday, I went to the range early and the first shot was 18 inches high. As the weather warmed up, the poi moved down eventually close to the correct poi. All the while, it was erratic. Tried different bullets- 300 XTP- 300HP- BO, a new can of 5744, new box of winchester primers, checked scope mounting, mounted a new backup leupold scope, checked recoil lug and bedding, cleaned everything, replaced vent liner. Nothing helped. It got better after temps were above 40-45. After 2 days of cussing, I decided to change powder to Reloader 7. Problem solved...Switched back to the 325FTX and shot a great group at 120yds. Waited til next morninmg and made a shot at 34 degrees and was spot-on. The new load is 325FTX - 63gr Reloader 7 - orange MMP sabot. 5744 is supposed to be very temperature insensitive. It is also said to become erratic at very low temps.
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#3027239 - 11/11/12 07:45 AM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: CR500AFX]
Tar12
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 345
Loc: USA Indiana

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5744 is one of the most reliable powders available for the Savages.
I have shot well in excess of 15 lbs of 5744. All in .50 cals. Never once was there a temp. problem with ignition or wild swing in POI with this powder.I torture tested this powder over several winter months by loading the gun and putting it in the freezer and taking it out and shooting it. It ALWAYS went bang to POI @ 100yds. I also would load the gun and bring it back and forth from the warm house to the freezing truck in temps from double digit minus windchill to 75 degrees. I assure you that your problem was not 5744. I shot this powcer exclusively for 4 yrs with the slightest problem. There is the possibly of moist/bad powder or more likely the culprit was MMP sabots. They are notorios for having inconsistent sabot petal thickness. Thats why I do not use MMP anymore. FYI,the Savage was designed around the 300 grn XTP and 5744 and it has always been noted for being a consistant performer.Also 5744 and Reloader-7 are both double based powders with Reloader-7 being a slower powder. This means they are both ultra reliable cold weather powders.

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#3027361 - 11/11/12 08:54 AM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: Tar12]
tasaman
8 Point


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1010
Loc: Woodlawn, TN

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Glad you got got it all worked out. I've used 5744 and agree with Tar12 that the powder is very consistent. I've shot up 1 1/2 lbs between 3 different guns and all of them performed at very least decent and one gun really likes the stuff. I've never used the orange MMP sabots and from the sounds of it I am glad BCRs work in my guns.
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#3028314 - 11/11/12 07:48 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: tasaman]
Deer Assassin
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 85522
Loc: Kingston Springs

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worse powder ever made

i wouldnt use it for nothing my buddy came over with his new savage and that powder (new can) barnes 300 gn

700-900 fps with 43 grains
bullets tumbling

loaded same bullet and sabot 68 gns h4198
cutting holes 2350 fps
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#3028688 - 11/12/12 04:22 AM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: Deer Assassin]
Tar12
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 345
Loc: USA Indiana

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 Originally Posted By: Deer Assassin
worse powder ever made

i wouldnt use it for nothing my buddy came over with his new savage and that powder (new can) barnes 300 gn

700-900 fps with 43 grains
bullets tumbling

loaded same bullet and sabot 68 gns h4198
cutting holes 2350 fps


700-900 fps..? 43 grn of 5744 will get you a solid 1800-1900 fps.Are you sure you are using Accurate Arms 5744? I have sent literally thousands of bullets down range with 5744 behind them and never once did one tumble.Something else is going on here.The only times I have seen bullets tumbling is because of a loose fitting sabot bullet combo.Here is a pic of my daighter shooting low doses of 5744 (36grn)






Edited by Tar12 (11/12/12 04:47 AM)

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#3029920 - 11/12/12 04:20 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: Tar12]
CR500AFX
6 Point


Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 537
Loc: ANDERSON CO.

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I must have gotten a bad can of 5744. It cost me a buck, time, ammo, and blood pressure. The switch to Reloader 7 gave me 250 more fps and it is said to be as reliable as 5744 but cleaner burning. After a fouling shot, the gun loads easier than with 5744. I'm glad I made the switch. Thanks all for the input.
_________________________
She told me if I go riding/hunting one more time she's gonna leave me......I'm gonna miss her...

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#3030177 - 11/12/12 06:51 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: CR500AFX]
Tar12
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 345
Loc: USA Indiana

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I am glad that you are back to consistancy again. Do you remember how many grns of N120 you tried in the past with 300 grn bullets? I shoot N120 in my .50s and 45s and love it. I am shy of 2450 in the .50 cal and 2750 in the .45.
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#3030231 - 11/12/12 07:33 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: Tar12]
fullstream
8 Point


Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 1452
Loc: tipton

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 Originally Posted By: Tar12
I am glad that you are back to consistancy again. Do you remember how many grns of N120 you tried in the past with 300 grn bullets? I shoot N120 in my .50s and 45s and love it. I am shy of 2450 in the .50 cal and 2750 in the .45.


How many gns are you shooting for that speed? I am shooting 60 pushing a 300exp

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#3030440 - 11/12/12 10:00 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: fullstream]
Deer Assassin
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 85522
Loc: Kingston Springs

content Online
i am sure of the powder
it was shootin 12 inch groups at best


i told my bud we are using my powder h4198 68 gns and wal lah

cutting holes

it may be a bad batch or lot but it is what it was

i have never been a fan of AA powders any way
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#3030561 - 11/13/12 05:01 AM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: fullstream]
Tar12
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 345
Loc: USA Indiana

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 Originally Posted By: fullstream
 Originally Posted By: Tar12
I am glad that you are back to consistancy again. Do you remember how many grns of N120 you tried in the past with 300 grn bullets? I shoot N120 in my .50s and 45s and love it. I am shy of 2450 in the .50 cal and 2750 in the .45.


How many gns are you shooting for that speed? I am shooting 60 pushing a 300exp

Here is some load data for 300 grn bullets that I have shot in my .50s
4759
44 grs- 2042 fps

VV N120
55 grs- 2190 fps
60 grs-2290 fps
62 grs- 2425 fps

H4198
63 grs- 2260 fps
67 grs- 2400 fps

IMR4198
65 grs- 2330 fps

H332
75 grs- 2300 fps

Reloader 7
63 grs- 2234 fps
65 grs- 2392 fps


10x
72 grs- 2306 fps
75 grs 2435 fps
These numbers will vary from gun to gun and chrono but no more than 100fps on avg.I was shooting 60 grns of N120 in the .45 but have bumped it up to 62 grns. I have not ran that across the chrony yet but the accuracy is still there.Thats very potent bambi medicine pushing the all copper Barnes 195 BX.I have shot the N120 up to 69 grns and was just shy of 3000 fps but starting blowing sabots and backed off to a charge weight that would not blow sabots.I think 62-63 grns of N120 in the .45 is going to be the sweet spot.

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#3030653 - 11/13/12 06:40 AM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: Tar12]
fullstream
8 Point


Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 1452
Loc: tipton

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Thanks for the data sir. I would like to get a chrono soon. I believe I'm gonna try some Barnes originals for next year. Although the exp certianly does a very nice job on deer.
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#3031046 - 11/13/12 09:54 AM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: Deer Assassin]
holstonangler
6 Point


Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 937
Loc: Johnson City

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 Originally Posted By: Deer Assassin
worse powder ever made

i wouldnt use it for nothing my buddy came over with his new savage and that powder (new can) barnes 300 gn

700-900 fps with 43 grains
bullets tumbling

loaded same bullet and sabot 68 gns h4198
cutting holes 2350 fps



lol where are you getting that data? I guess you are unaware of the well known misfires with h4198. The powder is not the cause of tumbling bullets. I use RL7, 10X, and 5744, and they all cut holes at 100 yards using the 325 ftx.

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#3031656 - 11/13/12 04:34 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: fullstream]
Tar12
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 345
Loc: USA Indiana

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 Originally Posted By: fullstream
Thanks for the data sir. I would like to get a chrono soon. I believe I'm gonna try some Barnes originals for next year. Although the exp certianly does a very nice job on deer.

That XTP will kill you a truckload of deer! BUT here is the catch with the XTP and most thin skinned pistol bullets they are designed to open in the 1600-1800 fps range. They do a excellent job there but it is when you really start to push them that they "frag". I personally do not care for that.If pushed to fast they will "varmint bullet' on you and you have a wounded deer on your hands or a long recovery job.This is not a problem to a lesser degree with 300 grn bullets in general absolutley no problem with the .458 Barnes (BO)or all copper bullets.Another excellent deer killing machine is the 250 grn TEZ if it will shoot for you.

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#3031841 - 11/13/12 06:23 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: holstonangler]
S.vitreum
Spike


Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 64
Loc: TN

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 Originally Posted By: holstonangler
lol where are you getting that data? I guess you are unaware of the well known misfires with h4198.

Funny. No misfires here and I supplied much data for Doug's. Maybe I'm still an idiot?
For 250's- 4759, N110, 4198, 10x
For 300's- n120, 4198, 10x, H-322

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#3032042 - 11/13/12 07:51 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: holstonangler]
Deer Assassin
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 85522
Loc: Kingston Springs

content Online
 Originally Posted By: holstonangler
 Originally Posted By: Deer Assassin
worse powder ever made

i wouldnt use it for nothing my buddy came over with his new savage and that powder (new can) barnes 300 gn

700-900 fps with 43 grains
bullets tumbling

loaded same bullet and sabot 68 gns h4198
cutting holes 2350 fps



lol where are you getting that data? I guess you are unaware of the well known misfires with h4198. The powder is not the cause of tumbling bullets. I use RL7, 10X, and 5744, and they all cut holes at 100 yards using the 325 ftx.


from a chronograph


never a misfire with h4198 killed probably 20 deer with it

some folks get all defensive

i hate that powder the results are the results the bullet tumbled cause it was subsonic

the only thing changed was the powder and it was cutting holes

hey like i said it could of been a bad batch it could of been exposed to temp changes i dont know but it was not my powder

thanks to him listening to me he killed 2 deer dead and that would not of happend with his powder
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#3032221 - 11/13/12 09:28 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: Deer Assassin]
Rockhound
10 Point


Registered: 04/04/11
Posts: 2659
Loc: Lawrence Co. TN

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I really need to chrono my load, the 13 pt i killed thursday was at about 75 yds and quartering to me. The 300 gr. Xtp. Entered right behind the shoulder and stopped behind the skin at his last rib, maybe even clipping the rib? Should i be concerned about no pass through?
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#3032304 - 11/13/12 10:40 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: Rockhound]
holstonangler
6 Point


Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 937
Loc: Johnson City

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Deer Assassin
[quote=holstonangler] [quote=Deer Assassin]
some folks get all defensive


maybe because the data you post is inaccurate. There is so much posted data on 5744, you would have to know that you had a bad batch of powder as soon as you saw the chrono readings.

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#3033638 - 11/14/12 08:21 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: holstonangler]
Deer Assassin
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 85522
Loc: Kingston Springs

content Online
 Originally Posted By: holstonangler
 Originally Posted By: Deer Assassin
[quote=holstonangler] [quote=Deer Assassin]
some folks get all defensive


maybe because the data you post is inaccurate. There is so much posted data on 5744, you would have to know that you had a bad batch of powder as soon as you saw the chrono readings.


and that is why i changed powder in his ml and it worked fine

besides the powder produces low fps compared to several other powders
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Drag Racing

Spending money I dont have

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#3033901 - 11/15/12 06:18 AM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: Tar12]
fullstream
8 Point


Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 1452
Loc: tipton

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 Originally Posted By: Tar12
 Originally Posted By: fullstream
Thanks for the data sir. I would like to get a chrono soon. I believe I'm gonna try some Barnes originals for next year. Although the exp certianly does a very nice job on deer.

That XTP will kill you a truckload of deer! BUT here is the catch with the XTP and most thin skinned pistol bullets they are designed to open in the 1600-1800 fps range. They do a excellent job there but it is when you really start to push them that they "frag". I personally do not care for that.If pushed to fast they will "varmint bullet' on you and you have a wounded deer on your hands or a long recovery job.This is not a problem to a lesser degree with 300 grn bullets in general absolutley no problem with the .458 Barnes (BO)or all copper bullets.Another excellent deer killing machine is the 250 grn TEZ if it will shoot for you.


Actually shoot the Barnes 300 exp. I tried xtp but couldn't get good groups. I recovered a bullet from a frontal shot this year (after it tore up 7 ribs) and it mushroomed beautifully. That was the first non pass through I've had with this this bullet.

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#3035023 - 11/15/12 04:17 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: fullstream]
Tar12
4 Point


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 345
Loc: USA Indiana

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OOOps! I misread what bullet you were using! Thats a killer for sure!

Edited by Tar12 (11/15/12 04:18 PM)

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#3037628 - 11/17/12 12:49 PM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: Tar12]
holstonangler
6 Point


Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 937
Loc: Johnson City

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I took an 8pter this morning with the 325ftx, boiler room shot, ran maybe 70 yards before taking the dirt map. Complete pass through, both lungs had golf ball sized holes through them. Awesome bullet, my third buck since starting with them last year. I used 44 grains of 5744 on the first two, both having pass throughs and traveling 50 yards or less, and this past one i was using 63 grains of Reloader 7. Both powders are producing .75-1.00" groups with my stock savage.
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#3098872 - 12/28/12 10:51 AM Re: Savage and 325 gr FTX [Re: CR500AFX]
scn
14 Point


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 9302
Loc: Brentwood, TN US

Offline
 Originally Posted By: CR500AFX
Decided to try the 45/70 325 gr FTX in my savage smokeless ML. MMP orange sabot with 44gr 5744 at 1925 FPS. The groups at 120 yards are just ok at 2 inches. However, the bullets are tumbling at that range, as evident keyholes in the target. None of the sabots are blown. I have tried different charges and it loads too tight with BCR sabots(bending ramrod}. I really wanted this combo to work, as it would be effective at short and long ranges. BTW, this gun is a tight shooter with 300gr XTP's, hornaday .458 300gr HP and .458 barnes original using the same powder load and a BCR sabot. I experimented with N120 early on but did not have good accuracy, but never tried it with these bullets. I would rather not change to a powder that is not as reliable. Secondly, I realize the Barnes original takes a lot to expand. Does anyone have experience using them on boiler room shots at ranges of 50 to 200 yards? Blood trail, after shot run distance, etc. Any suggestions?


If your last question was on the 300 gr. Barnes Original, then I can tell you it has been a GREAT bullet on big IL deer. A friend and I have killed several (bucks and does) with it up there with ranges from 20 yds to 200+ yds. I can't remember a single blood trailing job as all have either dropped in their tracks or taken a step or two. I shot an 11pt at 20 yds this fall and was a little concerned with the initial reaction as the deer flinched but didn't immediately go down. But, it only took two steps before hitting the ground.

They group well in my rifle, but are a bear to load in my tight barrel. I'm looking for an easier to load alternative for that rifle. In my other Savage they load well and will remain my bullet of choice for that gun.
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