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#2985822 - 10/17/12 10:20 AM greener on other side of fence, BSK
gboucher
4 Point


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 161
Loc: tennessee

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this question is mainly for bsk, but feel free. on another thread you said bucks dont have the ability to realize the grass is greener on the other side of the fence(more does). does this concept hold true for food as well? in other words if a buck is struggling to find food in his area will he move to a place with more food? I would think deer have this ability, and if so, it seems they do have the ability to rationalize.
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#2985830 - 10/17/12 10:26 AM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: gboucher]
Hit&Miss84
Spike


Registered: 09/11/12
Posts: 52
Loc: Kingsport, Tn

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That would simply show deer look for food when they are hungry right? It wouldn't show they are making any kind of judgment call.
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#2985946 - 10/17/12 12:14 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: Hit&Miss84]
Unicam Administrator
Grumpaw
16 Point


Registered: 12/13/00
Posts: 18929
Loc: Dallas, GA. & Cookeville, TN

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Here in GA, we have a park called Red Top Mountain. Back in the late 90's early 2000's there were so many deer in a small area of the park the browse line was startling. Everything below a deers reach was gone or chewed to the hilt. A very short distnace away was thick woods, open areas, lots of food sources and no deer hitting it like they did right in the small area of the park. The deer were very thin and looked almost starved in the spring and most of the summer. The deer would come up to your car looking for a handout! But they stayed in this small area until they started a quota hunt, then and only then did they disperse. I dont know if they know the grass is greener for food or does, but I promise you they know it about danger and getting out of an area. It was amazing how quickly these deer left the area once it had hunting pressure. A couple years later and the browse line was gone and there are far fewer deer seen during daylight hours.

Edited by Unicam (10/17/12 12:16 PM)
_________________________
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#2986021 - 10/17/12 01:13 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: Unicam]
gboucher
4 Point


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 161
Loc: tennessee

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hit and miss u r making my point exactly, they look for does when they get ho$#*). doesnt that seem rational?
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#2986082 - 10/17/12 01:57 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: gboucher]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64196
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: gboucher
this question is mainly for bsk, but feel free. on another thread you said bucks dont have the ability to realize the grass is greener on the other side of the fence(more does). does this concept hold true for food as well? in other words if a buck is struggling to find food in his area will he move to a place with more food? I would think deer have this ability, and if so, it seems they do have the ability to rationalize.


Bucks appear to be genetically programmed to make temporary excursions outside of their normal range in the hopes of finding estrus females. But even when they do successfully find an estrus female, they immediately return to their normal range after breeding.

On the other hand, as Unicam pointed out, deer will starve to death even if bountiful food is nearby. They do not have the mental capacity to look beyond their known world.

In the first example--seeking does--this seeking appears to be genetically driven, and this behavior is probably one the very wide variety of behaviors they exhibit that appear to be linked with maximizing genetic diversity within localized populations. But the point is, they are not making a mental decision to seek does, they are being driven by genetic predisposition. However, when it comes to actual survival, their mental capacities are not enough to help them find food. So no, I don't think you can say that deer have the mental capacity to conceptualize "the grass being greener" somewhere else. They certainly can't do it even when their life depends upon it.


To have the ability to conceptualize anything, you must have an imagination. Brain function scientist now believe you must have a verbal language to have an imagination, because you must "think out" concepts in mental words.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2986332 - 10/17/12 04:41 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: BSK]
gboucher
4 Point


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 161
Loc: tennessee

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very interesting, this just increases my faith in the good Lord. it seems to be just the way he planned it and guides it. thanks for the very informative answer as always.bsk, are your hormones getting kicked in yet, rut is just around the corner you know?
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#2986369 - 10/17/12 05:11 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: gboucher]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64196
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: gboucher
very interesting, this just increases my faith in the good Lord. it seems to be just the way he planned it and guides it.


Nature (God), through the process of Natural Selection, is an amazingly precise manipulator.


 Quote:
bsk, are your hormones getting kicked in yet, rut is just around the corner you know?


I'm getting more jazzed about hunting, but I'm not seeing anything I'm really that interested in on trail-cam, which tends to mute my excitement. But I should continue to pick up new bucks on cam for the next month, so I can't let my hopes fall too far. I'm getting 3-5 new bucks on cam every week right now, just no old bucks yet.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2986407 - 10/17/12 05:37 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: BSK]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25298
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: gboucher
this question is mainly for bsk, but feel free. on another thread you said bucks dont have the ability to realize the grass is greener on the other side of the fence(more does). does this concept hold true for food as well? in other words if a buck is struggling to find food in his area will he move to a place with more food? I would think deer have this ability, and if so, it seems they do have the ability to rationalize.


Bucks appear to be genetically programmed to make temporary excursions outside of their normal range in the hopes of finding estrus females. But even when they do successfully find an estrus female, they immediately return to their normal range after breeding.

On the other hand, as Unicam pointed out, deer will starve to death even if bountiful food is nearby. They do not have the mental capacity to look beyond their known world.

In the first example--seeking does--this seeking appears to be genetically driven, and this behavior is probably one the very wide variety of behaviors they exhibit that appear to be linked with maximizing genetic diversity within localized populations. But the point is, they are not making a mental decision to seek does, they are being driven by genetic predisposition. However, when it comes to actual survival, their mental capacities are not enough to help them find food. So no, I don't think you can say that deer have the mental capacity to conceptualize "the grass being greener" somewhere else. They certainly can't do it even when their life depends upon it.


To have the ability to conceptualize anything, you must have an imagination. Brain function scientist now believe you must have a verbal language to have an imagination, because you must "think out" concepts in mental words.
So,do they just "know" when the beans/corn is out in the Buffalo Bottoms,to go up on the hill looking for acorns,or.....learned from mama?
_________________________
The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!

You wont know,if you dont go!


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#2986733 - 10/17/12 08:28 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: BSK]
gboucher
4 Point


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 161
Loc: tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
[quote=gboucher]very interesting, this just increases my faith in the good Lord. it seems to be just the way he planned it and guides it.


Nature (God), through the process of Natural Selection, is an amazingly precise manipulator.


 Quote:
bsk, are your hormones getting kicked in yet, rut is just around the corner you know?


I'm getting more jazzed about hunting, but I'm not seeing anything I'm really that interested in on trail-cam, which tends to mute my excitement. But I should continue to pick up new bucks on cam for the next month, so I can't let my hopes fall too far. I'm getting 3-5 new bucks on cam every week right now, just no old bucks yet.

i had three pretty decent southern tn bucks all through the summer and now they are gone. picked up new bucks but havent seen any as big as the ones i lost, so i feel your pain. seems the neighbors are enjoying the fruits of my labor.

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#2987124 - 10/18/12 07:47 AM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: Football Hunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64196
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
So,do they just "know" when the beans/corn is out in the Buffalo Bottoms,to go up on the hill looking for acorns,or.....learned from mama?


The "hills to bottomlands" is all part of their annual range. They spend the summer months in the bottoms and the fall/winter in the adjoining hills. And in years with a near or total acorn failure, they do not shift into the hills but stay in the bottoms.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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