Tndeer Logo

Page all of 3 123>
Topic Options
#2985822 - 10/17/12 10:20 AM greener on other side of fence, BSK
gboucher
4 Point


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 161
Loc: tennessee

Offline
this question is mainly for bsk, but feel free. on another thread you said bucks dont have the ability to realize the grass is greener on the other side of the fence(more does). does this concept hold true for food as well? in other words if a buck is struggling to find food in his area will he move to a place with more food? I would think deer have this ability, and if so, it seems they do have the ability to rationalize.
Top
#2985830 - 10/17/12 10:26 AM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: gboucher]
Hit&Miss84
Spike


Registered: 09/11/12
Posts: 52
Loc: Kingsport, Tn

Offline
That would simply show deer look for food when they are hungry right? It wouldn't show they are making any kind of judgment call.
Top
#2985946 - 10/17/12 12:14 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: Hit&Miss84]
Unicam Administrator
Grumpaw
16 Point


Registered: 12/13/00
Posts: 18929
Loc: Dallas, GA. & Cookeville, TN

Offline
Here in GA, we have a park called Red Top Mountain. Back in the late 90's early 2000's there were so many deer in a small area of the park the browse line was startling. Everything below a deers reach was gone or chewed to the hilt. A very short distnace away was thick woods, open areas, lots of food sources and no deer hitting it like they did right in the small area of the park. The deer were very thin and looked almost starved in the spring and most of the summer. The deer would come up to your car looking for a handout! But they stayed in this small area until they started a quota hunt, then and only then did they disperse. I dont know if they know the grass is greener for food or does, but I promise you they know it about danger and getting out of an area. It was amazing how quickly these deer left the area once it had hunting pressure. A couple years later and the browse line was gone and there are far fewer deer seen during daylight hours.

Edited by Unicam (10/17/12 12:16 PM)
_________________________
"Gun Free Zones are for VICTIMS!"

John 15:13

Top
#2986021 - 10/17/12 01:13 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: Unicam]
gboucher
4 Point


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 161
Loc: tennessee

Offline
hit and miss u r making my point exactly, they look for does when they get ho$#*). doesnt that seem rational?
Top
#2986082 - 10/17/12 01:57 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: gboucher]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64196
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: gboucher
this question is mainly for bsk, but feel free. on another thread you said bucks dont have the ability to realize the grass is greener on the other side of the fence(more does). does this concept hold true for food as well? in other words if a buck is struggling to find food in his area will he move to a place with more food? I would think deer have this ability, and if so, it seems they do have the ability to rationalize.


Bucks appear to be genetically programmed to make temporary excursions outside of their normal range in the hopes of finding estrus females. But even when they do successfully find an estrus female, they immediately return to their normal range after breeding.

On the other hand, as Unicam pointed out, deer will starve to death even if bountiful food is nearby. They do not have the mental capacity to look beyond their known world.

In the first example--seeking does--this seeking appears to be genetically driven, and this behavior is probably one the very wide variety of behaviors they exhibit that appear to be linked with maximizing genetic diversity within localized populations. But the point is, they are not making a mental decision to seek does, they are being driven by genetic predisposition. However, when it comes to actual survival, their mental capacities are not enough to help them find food. So no, I don't think you can say that deer have the mental capacity to conceptualize "the grass being greener" somewhere else. They certainly can't do it even when their life depends upon it.


To have the ability to conceptualize anything, you must have an imagination. Brain function scientist now believe you must have a verbal language to have an imagination, because you must "think out" concepts in mental words.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#2986332 - 10/17/12 04:41 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: BSK]
gboucher
4 Point


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 161
Loc: tennessee

Offline
very interesting, this just increases my faith in the good Lord. it seems to be just the way he planned it and guides it. thanks for the very informative answer as always.bsk, are your hormones getting kicked in yet, rut is just around the corner you know?
Top
#2986369 - 10/17/12 05:11 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: gboucher]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64196
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: gboucher
very interesting, this just increases my faith in the good Lord. it seems to be just the way he planned it and guides it.


Nature (God), through the process of Natural Selection, is an amazingly precise manipulator.


 Quote:
bsk, are your hormones getting kicked in yet, rut is just around the corner you know?


I'm getting more jazzed about hunting, but I'm not seeing anything I'm really that interested in on trail-cam, which tends to mute my excitement. But I should continue to pick up new bucks on cam for the next month, so I can't let my hopes fall too far. I'm getting 3-5 new bucks on cam every week right now, just no old bucks yet.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#2986407 - 10/17/12 05:37 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: BSK]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25298
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: gboucher
this question is mainly for bsk, but feel free. on another thread you said bucks dont have the ability to realize the grass is greener on the other side of the fence(more does). does this concept hold true for food as well? in other words if a buck is struggling to find food in his area will he move to a place with more food? I would think deer have this ability, and if so, it seems they do have the ability to rationalize.


Bucks appear to be genetically programmed to make temporary excursions outside of their normal range in the hopes of finding estrus females. But even when they do successfully find an estrus female, they immediately return to their normal range after breeding.

On the other hand, as Unicam pointed out, deer will starve to death even if bountiful food is nearby. They do not have the mental capacity to look beyond their known world.

In the first example--seeking does--this seeking appears to be genetically driven, and this behavior is probably one the very wide variety of behaviors they exhibit that appear to be linked with maximizing genetic diversity within localized populations. But the point is, they are not making a mental decision to seek does, they are being driven by genetic predisposition. However, when it comes to actual survival, their mental capacities are not enough to help them find food. So no, I don't think you can say that deer have the mental capacity to conceptualize "the grass being greener" somewhere else. They certainly can't do it even when their life depends upon it.


To have the ability to conceptualize anything, you must have an imagination. Brain function scientist now believe you must have a verbal language to have an imagination, because you must "think out" concepts in mental words.
So,do they just "know" when the beans/corn is out in the Buffalo Bottoms,to go up on the hill looking for acorns,or.....learned from mama?
_________________________
The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!

You wont know,if you dont go!


Top
#2986733 - 10/17/12 08:28 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: BSK]
gboucher
4 Point


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 161
Loc: tennessee

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BSK
[quote=gboucher]very interesting, this just increases my faith in the good Lord. it seems to be just the way he planned it and guides it.


Nature (God), through the process of Natural Selection, is an amazingly precise manipulator.


 Quote:
bsk, are your hormones getting kicked in yet, rut is just around the corner you know?


I'm getting more jazzed about hunting, but I'm not seeing anything I'm really that interested in on trail-cam, which tends to mute my excitement. But I should continue to pick up new bucks on cam for the next month, so I can't let my hopes fall too far. I'm getting 3-5 new bucks on cam every week right now, just no old bucks yet.

i had three pretty decent southern tn bucks all through the summer and now they are gone. picked up new bucks but havent seen any as big as the ones i lost, so i feel your pain. seems the neighbors are enjoying the fruits of my labor.

Top
#2987124 - 10/18/12 07:47 AM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: Football Hunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64196
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
So,do they just "know" when the beans/corn is out in the Buffalo Bottoms,to go up on the hill looking for acorns,or.....learned from mama?


The "hills to bottomlands" is all part of their annual range. They spend the summer months in the bottoms and the fall/winter in the adjoining hills. And in years with a near or total acorn failure, they do not shift into the hills but stay in the bottoms.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#2987140 - 10/18/12 08:02 AM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: gboucher]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64196
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: gboucher
 Originally Posted By: BSK
I'm getting more jazzed about hunting, but I'm not seeing anything I'm really that interested in on trail-cam, which tends to mute my excitement. But I should continue to pick up new bucks on cam for the next month, so I can't let my hopes fall too far. I'm getting 3-5 new bucks on cam every week right now, just no old bucks yet.


i had three pretty decent southern tn bucks all through the summer and now they are gone. picked up new bucks but havent seen any as big as the ones i lost, so i feel your pain. seems the neighbors are enjoying the fruits of my labor.


Unfortunately, with all of the sudden improvements we've made on our family property, I believe we may have turned our property into a doe sink. Now I only have one year's data to suggest this (this year), but it does make biological sense. But the ramification of this problem is a lack of bucks using the property in the summer months (the property becomes dominated by does defending fawning territories, forcing bucks into surrounding poorer habitat). In this scenario, bucks must "filter back into" the property over the fall months. I'm definitely seeing that filtering in process, but to date, I don't have any mature bucks using the property, which is deeply troubling.

Now we still have the "rut range expanders and shifters" to yet move into the property (which usually occurs at the very end of October into the first 10 days of November), and on average, those bucks make up a full 33% of the bucks we have to hunt during MZ and the opening weeks of gun season, so I'm hoping a few mature bucks appear with that group.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#2987289 - 10/18/12 09:30 AM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: BSK]
Hit&Miss84
Spike


Registered: 09/11/12
Posts: 52
Loc: Kingsport, Tn

Offline
I know very little about deer behavior. Bucks look for does during the rut because the does are in heat and will allow the bucks to breed them. That is my understanding and it seems genetic, instictual, or hormonal, not really rational...
Top
#2987339 - 10/18/12 10:18 AM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: Hit&Miss84]
BuckHunter511
6 Point


Registered: 07/23/11
Posts: 751
Loc: Cumberland County,Tennessee, U...

Offline
Interesting, BSK do you bowhunter?
_________________________
Better a good day of catching fish, than a life time of crabs.

Top
#2987445 - 10/18/12 11:35 AM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: BuckHunter511]
Football Hunter
Non-Typical


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 25298
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

Offline
No,he is not.BSK that is
_________________________
The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!

You wont know,if you dont go!


Top
#2987631 - 10/18/12 01:43 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: BuckHunter511]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64196
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BuckHunter511
Interesting, BSK do you bowhunter?


I used to be almost exclusively a bow-hunter, but not anymore. Now I primarily MZ and gun hunt.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#2987691 - 10/18/12 02:17 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: BSK]
BuckHunter511
6 Point


Registered: 07/23/11
Posts: 751
Loc: Cumberland County,Tennessee, U...

Offline
Oh I see, I bow hunt, but not anywhere near as hard as I do during muzzy and gun.
_________________________
Better a good day of catching fish, than a life time of crabs.

Top
#2987799 - 10/18/12 04:01 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: BuckHunter511]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 64196
Loc: Nashville, TN

Offline
BuckHunter511,

I quit bow-hunting for a number of reasons:

1) I had to face the fact I wasn't very good at killing animals with an arrow; and...

2) because of that, I wasn't really enjoying it that much (I was primarily using it as an excuse to simply "be hunting" back when MZ/gun season were short); and...

3) we learned we were just pressuring the deer during bow season, reducing our success come the MZ and gun seasons. Since we stopped bow hunting, our success during MZ and gun seasons has gone way up; and...

4) I feel lethal with an MZ or gun in my hands. I enjoy that hunting much more. Although to be honest, from all the years of bow-hunting, I still set up my MZ/gun stands just like I'm bow hunting, and most of my MZ and gun kills are at bow distances. I rarely shoot a deer with a firearm beyond 50 yards, and most are 20-30 yard kills. I still like that "up close and personal" style of hunting that bow-hunting requires, but I like carrying a lethal weapon for my hands.

_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

Top
#2990197 - 10/20/12 08:35 AM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: BSK]
DaveB
10 Point


Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 3133
Loc: Shelby County

Offline
Guys, Whitetail deer are missing brain functions as BSK says. Otherwise, they would not get hit by cars. When they are pressured by man or beast they move and if not, they stay. Its why we can pattern them. Anthropomorphism is in play here. Lots of animals have behavior which we relate to our own and it just is more often incorrect than right.
Top
#2992207 - 10/21/12 08:09 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: DaveB]
gboucher
4 Point


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 161
Loc: tennessee

Offline
what about humans? they have brain functions and get hit by cars.
Top
#2993830 - 10/22/12 07:14 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: gboucher]
westtntoms
8 Point


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 1536
Loc: Collierville, TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: gboucher
what about humans? they have brain functions and get hit by cars.


Yeah, but just as deer, some are missing the vital functions. \:D

Top
#3001960 - 10/27/12 02:26 PM Re: greener on other side of fence, BSK [Re: westtntoms]
AT Hiker
6 Point


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 791
Loc: Clarksville, Tennessee

Offline
WY blackhills whitetail actually migrate south to the plains...rational maybe, but if they want to survive they best be moving!

One thing I learned a few years ago that has helped me tremendously is simple...deer are not as smart as we might think or give them credit for, they are simple animals that get very lucky and are very adapt to their enviroment. With this mind set now I have seen and killed more deer (mature ones too) along with turkeys and ofher critters. I simply quit giving them credit for my mistakes instead of saying "man that old buck sure is smart".

I know its not that simple, but all in all I now have more fun and Im overall more successful.
_________________________
Longbeards Inc.



In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks.
-John Muir




Top
Page all of 3 123>


Moderator:  Bobby G, Unicam, CBU93, stretch, Kimber45, Kirk, Crappie Luck 
Hop to:
Top Posters
4104309
RUGER
85515
Deer Assassin
64196
BSK
59427
Crappie Luck
51368
spitndrum
Newest Members
Afleming17, 260rem, Hunter244, Woodsmaster, Tennessee Skeeter
13278 Registered Users
Who's Online
98 registered (Thicketmaster, Bigg E, AndyW, HuntingDicksonDTC, landman, 7wsm, 14 invisible) and 147 anonymous users online.
Forum Stats
13278 Members
42 Forums
85094 Topics
1028285 Posts

Max Online: 788 @ 11/11/13 08:06 PM
Moon Phase
CURRENT MOON
April
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
Forum Donations
The TnDeer.Com Deer Talk Forum is for Tennessee Deer Hunters by Tennessee Deer Hunters. If you enjoy using our Talk Forum and would like to contribute to help in it's up-keep. Just submit your contribution by clicking on the DONATE button below and paying with PayPal or a major credit card. Any amount is much appreciated. Thanks for your support!

TN Burn Safe

Generated in 0.312 seconds in which 0.029 seconds were spent on a total of 14 queries. Zlib compression enabled.