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#2981013 - 10/14/12 02:12 PM "non-fatal hits"
Public land rat
Spike


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Ive read several times on here about non-fatal hits and the animal being "fine". I aint trying to bash anyone or start anything but i disagree. We have killed a couple of deer on corps land during muzzleloader that when we started to quarter the deer up they were badly infected. Last 1 was hit high with a broadhead in no mans land obviously in bow season, my brother shot it with a mzldr. from its hams to neck was green and yellow. the deer wouldnt have lasted much longer. the reason i posted this is because i have a friend who shot a doe, couldn't find her and justified himself by saying "i think it was a non-fatal hit, she'll probly live". He didnt do his due diligence in the shot or tracking. I have lost deer and it makes me sick every time. Someone at sometime had told him "its ok it'll probly live". I disagree with this and feel thats the wrong attitude. i'm sure others in here have similiar or different experiences, but do all u can to retrieve
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#2981045 - 10/14/12 02:43 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: Public land rat]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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Hunters, unfortunately do try to justify bad hits that way. On the other hand controlled studies do show that a much larger percentage of unrecivered bow shot animals do recover than those shot with a gun.

This is not to say, "if you don't find them, they are fine". That is by no means true. But many animals that are marginally hit, do recover. Almost 100% of gut shot animals die. A few do recover. It depends on peritonits-infection fromt he contents.
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#2981049 - 10/14/12 02:44 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: Public land rat]
JandSCattleCo
8 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
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Yeah, I hit that buck yesterday. Yes, I did due diligence in tracking him. No, I did not recover him. Nor did my father, wife or hunting buddy that also helped me look.

Pretty sure he went somewhere and died. If you would like to come track him as you must be better at it than us, I'll give you the address.

Yes, I am sick at losing that deer. It was my first deer with a bow, and my first buck with 2 antlers.

Thanks for making me feel worse.
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#2981068 - 10/14/12 02:53 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: JandSCattleCo]
bowriter
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J&S, if that was aimed at me, I had no idea you even shot a deer yesterday. But I appologize anyway. You should have called me, I would have bright my tracking dog.

If you shoot enoough animals, you are going to lose some. Some recover, some don't. You do the best you can and then, move on.

Unfortunately some don't do enough.
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#2981073 - 10/14/12 02:58 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: bowriter]
JandSCattleCo
8 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
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No Mr. Sloan it wasn't towards you. We were apparently posting at the same time and yours went up before mine.

To the best of my recollection I put a solid hit on the deer, with a loud thwack sound on impact, then he ran off. From where my wife was she could see him run off with the luminock dancing. I'm sure it was a good hit, then we withdrew, ate dinner, and gave him time to die. We tracked from 7:30 to 10:00 last night, then I went and got a buddy of mine that is very good at tracking. We tracked from 7:30 to noon today. Blood just stopped.
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#2981083 - 10/14/12 03:07 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: JandSCattleCo]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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Let me offer this up as a possibility.

The thwack would make me think shoulder blade in the thick part. That would also tie in with the arrow not going all the way through. That would also mean you would see what appears to be a good hit because the nock would look to be further back.

That would all add up to just exactly what you describe in terms of blood and everything. It might also mean a deer that survives unless the head fully penetrated the shoulder and hit vital organs. Even a one-lung hit can be non-fatal.

That is my take on it.
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#2981104 - 10/14/12 03:26 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: bowriter]
JandSCattleCo
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Registered: 11/01/10
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My dad called a few minutes ago and was told very similar from the folk he works with at the plant.

I hate that he is probably dead and I wasn't able to recover. I feel sick about it because to me it's now become a waste of a life that I wasn't able to recover the meat. The antlers were just a bonus. A big bonus.
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#2981119 - 10/14/12 03:35 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: Public land rat]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: Public land rat
Ive read several times on here about non-fatal hits and the animal being "fine". I aint trying to bash anyone or start anything but i disagree. We have killed a couple of deer on corps land during muzzleloader that when we started to quarter the deer up they were badly infected. Last 1 was hit high with a broadhead in no mans land obviously in bow season, my brother shot it with a mzldr. from its hams to neck was green and yellow. the deer wouldnt have lasted much longer. the reason i posted this is because i have a friend who shot a doe, couldn't find her and justified himself by saying "i think it was a non-fatal hit, she'll probly live". He didnt do his due diligence in the shot or tracking. I have lost deer and it makes me sick every time. Someone at sometime had told him "its ok it'll probly live". I disagree with this and feel thats the wrong attitude. i'm sure others in here have similiar or different experiences, but do all u can to retrieve


I certainly don't want to help anyone justify bad hits or not doing everything possible to find a wounded deer. But at that same time, if a deer's internal body cavity is not punctured, it will often survive serious injury. In fact many deer survive a one-lung hit. They are tough, tough animals. Just because a deer shows infection from a wound, even serious subcuteaneous infection, does not mean that deer will die. They have shockingly effective immune systems.

Studies done in bow-only WMAs have found that many harvested deer have multiple healed past wounds from arrows. If they can survive multiple arrowings, they are tough, and will survive non-lethal hits on a regular basis.

Again, I don't want to help justify bad shooting, but unless the central body cavity is punctured, deer often survive the wound, and on occassion (one-lung hit) can survive body cavity hits.
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#2981135 - 10/14/12 03:46 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: BSK]
Southern Sportsman
8 Point


Registered: 09/18/11
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Does anyone remember the "How did this doe survive" thread last year? Guy shot a doe with a rage and got a complete pass though and lost the deer. Few days later he got trail cam pictures of the deer showing both the entrance and exit wound going through the chest cavity. As far anyone could guess he just got 1 lung. He updated with pictures later showing more pictures of the deer pretty well healed. They are amazingly tough, but I agree with the original post. Just because many deer survive does not mean that people should assume a non-fatal hit and quit looking.
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#2981138 - 10/14/12 03:48 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: BSK]
timberjack86
14 Point


Registered: 06/20/11
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Does anyone remember the thread last year about the doe being shot with a rage behind the shoulder and surviveing? Can anyone pull up a link to the pics?
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#2981187 - 10/14/12 04:35 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: timberjack86]
soshock1
4 Point


Registered: 08/27/10
Posts: 115
Loc: Columbia, TN

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My partner shot a doe last year right in the shoulder blade. I ended up killing it three weeks later and although it couldn't use it's left front leg, it was otherwise healthy and the meat was excellent. The truth is that unless you see the exact same deer later on, you have no way of knowing what really happened.
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#2981217 - 10/14/12 04:55 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: soshock1]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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Impossible!!!! You cannot shoot a deer anywhere with a Rage and have it survive.

I know that for a fact. I read on here \:\)
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#2981236 - 10/14/12 05:09 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: bowriter]
Southern Sportsman
8 Point


Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 1129
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Last year's "How did this doe survive" thread:
http://www.tndeer.com/tndeertalk/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2580336&page=168#Post2580336
http://www.tndeer.com/tndeertalk/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2588469&page=66#Post2588469


Edited by Southern Sportsman (10/14/12 05:21 PM)

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#2981259 - 10/14/12 05:21 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: Public land rat]
timberjack86
14 Point


Registered: 06/20/11
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Here ya go I found it. Doe survives chest cavity hit.
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#2981260 - 10/14/12 05:21 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: timberjack86]
timberjack86
14 Point


Registered: 06/20/11
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HA you beat me to it thanks!
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#2981286 - 10/14/12 05:33 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: timberjack86]
bowhunterfanatic
8 Point


Registered: 09/14/09
Posts: 1239
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I'm a firm believer that most non gut shot deer that are shot with a bow and are not recovered actually live. Well, ones that are tracked by people with experience anyway. I shot a doe last week with a 2 inch expandable head at ~ 22 yards. She was quartering away more than I realized and I had to stay at full draw forever waiting on a shot. As a result I sorta rushed the shot and hit her too far forward. I CLEARLY saw the point of impact of the arrow and saw the arrow in the deer as she ran off. I hit her behind the front shoulder in the dead center of the chest. The arrow was too high to get her heart and due to the angle it only got one lung. I followed blood for a little over 200 yards and she quit bleeding. I spent quite a bit of time the next day looking for her and never found her. I am convinced that somehow she is still walking around with just one lung.
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#2981290 - 10/14/12 05:37 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: bowhunterfanatic]
bowriter
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If you can tell that much about an arrow hit, angle of penetration and where the b.h. ended up, with dead certainty, you are indeed a unique individual. Half the time, I am not even sure I hit them.
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#2981330 - 10/14/12 06:01 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: timberjack86]
Public land rat
Spike


Registered: 07/22/12
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j & s. I in no way was directing this at you or anybody else. It sounds like u tried very hard to recover. I have just heard the "it'll probly live" line far to often and too much. I posted this becasuse of that line. Once again when i posted, i said "wasnt directed to anyone and not trying to cause any ruffling". The "you must be better than us"? sorry if you were offended.
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#2981822 - 10/14/12 10:32 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: bowriter]
bowhunterfanatic
8 Point


Registered: 09/14/09
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 Originally Posted By: bowriter
If you can tell that much about an arrow hit, angle of penetration and where the b.h. ended up, with dead certainty, you are indeed a unique individual. Half the time, I am not even sure I hit them.


Normally I can't really tell either, but she ran off right under my tree, so I had a great look at the arrow in her and it was definitely behind the front shoulder and lodged in the off side shoulder. The reason I think it must've just been one lung is because most of the blood I found was bubbly lung blood, but the deer ran way too far to be double lunged.

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#2981852 - 10/14/12 11:03 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: bowriter]
Poleaxe
8 Point


Registered: 09/08/12
Posts: 2387
Loc: Etowah Tennessee

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 Originally Posted By: bowriter
Impossible!!!! You cannot shoot a deer anywhere with a Rage and have it survive.

I know that for a fact. I read on here \:\)


Thats hilarious bowriter.

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#2981907 - 10/15/12 01:38 AM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: BSK]
Wells Taxidermy
4 Point


Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 116
Loc: Millington,TN

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x2 Deer are built to survive. in more ways than one. ;\)
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Public land rat
Ive read several times on here about non-fatal hits and the animal being "fine". I aint trying to bash anyone or start anything but i disagree. We have killed a couple of deer on corps land during muzzleloader that when we started to quarter the deer up they were badly infected. Last 1 was hit high with a broadhead in no mans land obviously in bow season, my brother shot it with a mzldr. from its hams to neck was green and yellow. the deer wouldnt have lasted much longer. the reason i posted this is because i have a friend who shot a doe, couldn't find her and justified himself by saying "i think it was a non-fatal hit, she'll probly live". He didnt do his due diligence in the shot or tracking. I have lost deer and it makes me sick every time. Someone at sometime had told him "its ok it'll probly live". I disagree with this and feel thats the wrong attitude. i'm sure others in here have similiar or different experiences, but do all u can to retrieve


I certainly don't want to help anyone justify bad hits or not doing everything possible to find a wounded deer. But at that same time, if a deer's internal body cavity is not punctured, it will often survive serious injury. In fact many deer survive a one-lung hit. They are tough, tough animals. Just because a deer shows infection from a wound, even serious subcuteaneous infection, does not mean that deer will die. They have shockingly effective immune systems.

Studies done in bow-only WMAs have found that many harvested deer have multiple healed past wounds from arrows. If they can survive multiple arrowings, they are tough, and will survive non-lethal hits on a regular basis.

Again, I don't want to help justify bad shooting, but unless the central body cavity is punctured, deer often survive the wound, and on occassion (one-lung hit) can survive body cavity hits.

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#2982158 - 10/15/12 08:28 AM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: JandSCattleCo]
Snake
18 Point


Registered: 05/03/09
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Loc: McMinn Co.Tennessee U.S.

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 Originally Posted By: JandSCattleCo
Yeah, I hit that buck yesterday. Yes, I did due diligence in tracking him. No, I did not recover him. Nor did my father, wife or hunting buddy that also helped me look.

Pretty sure he went somewhere and died. If you would like to come track him as you must be better at it than us, I'll give you the address.

Yes, I am sick at losing that deer. It was my first deer with a bow, and my first buck with 2 antlers.

Thanks for making me feel worse.


Most hunters feel bad enough as it is and if you hunt long enough you are apt to lose one but if you dilligently look for the deer until all hope is exhausted then I think that's is all you can do .You have that hope that the deer will survive and if not God has plenty of animals thay will feed off of the animal so in all reaility it will not be wasted !!!!
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#2982199 - 10/15/12 09:05 AM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: Snake]
TRIGGER
Michael Waddell stunt double
10 Point


Registered: 09/25/11
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Loc: Cunningham TN

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Just because they survive doesn't mean they don't suffer. I hate for an animal to suffer. Try to make a clean shot.
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#2982271 - 10/15/12 09:58 AM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: TRIGGER]
Jaahspike
4 Point


Registered: 11/17/10
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Just because they survive doesn't mean they don't suffer. I hate for an animal to suffer. Try to make a clean shot.

We all hate for them to suffer and none of us "try to make a bad shot".

I know what you mean though.
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#2982361 - 10/15/12 11:01 AM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: timberjack86]
GOODWIN
4 Point


Registered: 02/18/08
Posts: 453
Loc: Chattanooga, TN

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 Originally Posted By: timberjack86
Here ya go I found it. Doe survives chest cavity hit.


I've hit deer like this high in the chest and not recovered them. I know for a fact of two that survived. One from a trail cam pic and the other from laying eyes on her again. Guess I got one lung if at all. People living just fine with one lung so I guess deer can as well. They are tough for sure!

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#2982376 - 10/15/12 11:12 AM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: timberjack86]
catman529
spiderboy
16 Point


Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 17592
Loc: Franklin TN

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BSK is right saying deer are tough, tough animals. when I shot my first doe, it clipped the heart and she bled a lot while running 200 yards before bedding down. When we jumped her up she could barely get up but managed to jump in the creek and drown. Her heart had a gash in it the whole time. They are friggin tough animals.
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#2982412 - 10/15/12 11:38 AM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: Public land rat]
oldmanelrod
6 Point


Registered: 07/30/10
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 Originally Posted By: Public land rat
Ive read several times on here about non-fatal hits and the animal being "fine". I aint trying to bash anyone or start anything but i disagree. We have killed a couple of deer on corps land during muzzleloader that when we started to quarter the deer up they were badly infected. Last 1 was hit high with a broadhead in no mans land obviously in bow season, my brother shot it with a mzldr. from its hams to neck was green and yellow. the deer wouldnt have lasted much longer. the reason i posted this is because i have a friend who shot a doe, couldn't find her and justified himself by saying "i think it was a non-fatal hit, she'll probly live". He didnt do his due diligence in the shot or tracking. I have lost deer and it makes me sick every time. Someone at sometime had told him "its ok it'll probly live". I disagree with this and feel thats the wrong attitude. i'm sure others in here have similiar or different experiences, but do all u can to retrieve

I agree with most of your post. However my local processor-who is a butcher year round- has a jar full of broadheads that he has removed from deer through the years. He told me that in many cases the deer's body will build a wall of scar tissue around the broadhead and the deer goes on with life. I think you are right that there are many are deer that do die but I also think that there are those that survive after being wounded.

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#2982563 - 10/15/12 01:34 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: GOODWIN]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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I have killed deer that had broadheads and bullets in them, and had had those projectiles in them for some time. I have seen amazing pictures of the places deer had broadheads imbedded in them, including pentrating the skull and entering the braincase.

Twice we've shot bucks with firearms (one a MZ hit, another a 270 hit), lost the bucks, and then killed them several days later. The bucks were up and moving fine. In fact, in both instances the bucks were chasing does again within a few days of the first injury.
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#2983049 - 10/15/12 07:12 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: BSK]
JandSCattleCo
8 Point


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 1079
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
I have killed deer that had broadheads and bullets in them, and had had those projectiles in them for some time. I have seen amazing pictures of the places deer had broadheads imbedded in them, including pentrating the skull and entering the braincase.

Twice we've shot bucks with firearms (one a MZ hit, another a 270 hit), lost the bucks, and then killed them several days later. The bucks were up and moving fine. In fact, in both instances the bucks were chasing does again within a few days of the first injury.


...Whats the old saying "When you're hot, you're hot!" \:D
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#2983115 - 10/15/12 07:45 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: JandSCattleCo]
PapPaw
8 Point


Registered: 08/22/02
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I am not sure how much pain deer feel. I have seen deer double lung shot go back to feeding, until they fell dead. They never appeared to know they were hurt.I have also shot bucks that were chaseing hot does, keep after them until they dropped dead.
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#2983299 - 10/15/12 08:50 PM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: PapPaw]
Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/26/99
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The best buck I ever lost was a 135-140 class 10 pointer. The dreaded "non-fatal" spot was right above the lungs broadside and under the spine missing the artery running along it. A watery blood and the deer survived. He was later seen running with another buck and a few does.
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#2983773 - 10/16/12 08:17 AM Re: "non-fatal hits" [Re: PapPaw]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65979
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 Originally Posted By: PapPaw
I am not sure how much pain deer feel. I have seen deer double lung shot go back to feeding, until they fell dead. They never appeared to know they were hurt.I have also shot bucks that were chaseing hot does, keep after them until they dropped dead.


A few years ago, I shot a nice older buck that was hot after a doe. He was crashing through brush, jumping downed logs, and chasing that doe like crazy. Yet while processing him I found that one of his legs was broken--femur snapped right in half by a 22 caliber bullet, and had been that way for some time. Running and chasing with a completely separated femur-break? Much of what we humans think of as "pain" is created in our minds. It is real, felt pain, but it is mentally produced. Deer won't have that type of pain because they don't have the mental capacity to conceptualize it.
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