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#2975382 - 10/10/12 08:18 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: BSK]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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Less that two days ago a picture was posted on this site of a dink buck and the primary question was, what will he score. This site and others are inundated with the "what will he score?" threads.

Book oranganization do contribute money to hunting. I just have not seen them put it anywhere that it does much good. I have seen them spend money fighting anti-hunters, usually in an amount that is about 1/10th of the money the anits spend and in areas that do no good. I saw P&Y contribute $5K to a useless school program that reached a miniscule number of schools. I have seen them get deeply involved in arguments on how to exactly score a specific head and I have seen them discriminate. I do believe if all the record keeping organzations vanished tonight, only a few would miss them.

Of the organizations, the one that does the most in terms of paying back is SCI. There is no question about that. And strangely enough, their record keeping is of the mindset, "If you killed it, no matter what it is, how big it is,where you killed it or what you killed it with, we have a place for it in our book."

To compare hunting to any of the other sports mentioned in an above post is beyond absurd. Do we kill "ball" players? But wait a minoozle. In a way, perhaps we do. I do believe some of them died from taking performance enhancing drugs. They took the drugs to be better...perhaps better enough to be in the record books. And that dang sure hurts the sports. Just as shooting a penned deer is cheating, so is taking ped's. In both cases, the goal is the same. And in both cases, it hurts the sport.
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#2975399 - 10/10/12 08:33 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: bowriter]
AndyW
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Registered: 10/21/10
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 Originally Posted By: bowriter

To compare hunting to any of the other sports mentioned in an above post is beyond absurd. Do we kill "ball" players? But wait a minoozle. In a way, perhaps we do. I do believe some of them died from taking performance enhancing drugs. They took the drugs to be better...perhaps better enough to be in the record books. And that dang sure hurts the sports. Just as shooting a penned deer is cheating, so is taking ped's. In both cases, the goal is the same. And in both cases, it hurts the sport.


Pretty good analogy BW, its like you get paid to write or something. ;\)
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#2975526 - 10/10/12 10:03 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: AndyW]
bowriter
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Speaking of which, I got a check yesterday for a thing I sold four months ago. I almost threw the envelope out unopened becasue it looked like one of those fake checks you get from somebody trying to get you to take a cruise or something.

I believe it was a piece on trophy hunting.

However, your analogy makes no sense. I get paid because I am an extremely talented and artistic writer. That has nothing to do any sport. It is sheer artism. But wait, my writing does win trophies. Is that your connection \:\)
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#2975579 - 10/10/12 10:36 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: Pursuit Hunter]
barkscraper
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I have a question that might not be in line but here it is. We will not let our kids watch tv that has murder after murder and blood because of the influence on their minds but then we sit down to watch a hunting show where they kill a giant every 10 minutes and we start to think we should be doing the same. So what is the difference and there is the rocket broadhead with the blood thrown on the screen just wondering what the non hunters say about us. Wonder if they would keep their kids from watching
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#2975788 - 10/10/12 01:21 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: BSK]
fairchaser
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Registered: 09/13/11
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
 Originally Posted By: BSK
fairchaser,

Please explain to me what good comes from recordbooks? I really can't think of anything good that comes from glorifying individual hunters.


It's not just record books but all the other efforts made by these organizations that promote fairchase, conservation and hunting in general.


But that's just it. I don't think the recognition involved with recordbooks does anything to promote fairchase. In fact, just the opposite. Recordbooks promote the killing of extraordinary, rare and unique animals, not the general principles of hunting. In addition, they help fuel the "somebody has something I don't, and I want/deserve it too" mentality (i.e. jealousy and entitlement) that is the root of many crimes. Instead of promoting the principles of becoming a successful deer hunter by acquiring knowledge and woodsmanship skills over a lifetime of experience, they foster the "whatever it takes" to get one's name in the recordbooks and receive ego-stroking recognition. Even specific large bucks are referred to by the hunter's name (i.e. the "Hanson Buck," etc.).


 Quote:
If you remove the recordbooks, then you don't have the other.


I couldn't disagree more. I've been in the promotion of conservation and biologically sound deer management arena for a long time now, and I've not seen B&C, P&Y or SCI anywhere around during that time period.


 Quote:
Are you saying that SCI, Buckmasters, P&Y and B&C have not given back and we would be better off as hunters if they didn't exist?


That's exactly what I'm saying. Personally, I've not seen them "give back" much if anything. And I believe the results of their efforts are deterimental to hunting.


 Quote:
I don't know anyone who hunts that has a goal of making it into the recordbooks as their primary goal...


Are you kidding me? Read the posts on this site and others. I've never seen such obsession for antler scores as I'm seeing now. I'm seeing/reading many, many hunters who's entire self-worth is determined by the antler score of the bucks they kill. And many of these same people are the one's looking down their nose at and verbally denegrating any other hunter who doesn't hold out for only fully mature bucks scoring over 140 or 150. This is extremely unhealthy behavior and definitely not good for the future of hunting.


I respect your opinion Bryan but we just have a difference views here. You make valid points and I will have to give them more thought. Anything worth doing can be overdone and obsessed over. That goes for hunting and antler scores. I've seen deer hunters do some pretty stupid things for a big buck. May-be its all due to recordbooks but I doubt it. It comes down to character which seems to be out of style these days. If a big buck is all somebody has to put on their tombstone then that's pretty sad. We all cherish things that are rare like big antlers but we all need to know our limitiations and when we have gone over the edge of sanity. I think its inherent and the recordbooks may add a little fuel to the fire but not the cause.
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#2975819 - 10/10/12 01:40 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: barkscraper]
bowriter
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 Originally Posted By: barkscraper
I have a question that might not be in line but here it is. We will not let our kids watch tv that has murder after murder and blood because of the influence on their minds but then we sit down to watch a hunting show where they kill a giant every 10 minutes and we start to think we should be doing the same. So what is the difference and there is the rocket broadhead with the blood thrown on the screen just wondering what the non hunters say about us. Wonder if they would keep their kids from watching


I suspect they do. However, I doubt if many of them even know about hunting shows. My sister is a staunch anti-hunter and she had no idea such shows existed.

But here is a better question. Should we be letting our kids watch those shows? Would they not start wondering what daddy (mommy) is doing because they don't kill those kinds of deer every time?

Should there be a board of sensor for outdoor programming?

And should this be a seperate topic thread?
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#2975847 - 10/10/12 02:07 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: bowriter]
Winchester
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Registered: 12/05/03
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Its all in what you make of it or take it for!
I agree many shows and organizations are nothing but a place to chest thump and say look at me! This is definitely bad for the long term of the Sport and tradition of hunting!
I think the record books should definitely exist, but with only the deer and their exceptional features listed, no Hunters name unless you request it. This puts it all back to admiring the animal, not who killed it!
I know many young people and adults alike are duped in to thinking the wrong thing from watching many shows and reading many trophy reports. That said, it takes a pretty naive and gullible person to believe everything he reads and see's on TV/Internet. As I have said before, common sense goes a long way, just unfortunate that its not nearly as COMMON as it needs to be!!!

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#2975860 - 10/10/12 02:20 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: Winchester]
bowriter
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I agree Westchester, pretty well said.
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#2975865 - 10/10/12 02:23 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: bowriter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: bowriter
But here is a better question. Should we be letting our kids watch those shows? Would they not start wondering what daddy (mommy) is doing because they don't kill those kinds of deer every time?


It isn't even about mommy or daddy not killing that size deer. These TV shows send a very negative message about hunting--that it is about hooting and hollering and acting like a fool over a dead big buck, and nothing else. I would never let my daughter watch these shows, although she does hunt with me and has no problem with hunting/killing.
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#2975871 - 10/10/12 02:25 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: fairchaser]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
Anything worth doing can be overdone and obsessed over. That goes for hunting and antler scores. I've seen deer hunters do some pretty stupid things for a big buck. May-be its all due to recordbooks but I doubt it. It comes down to character which seems to be out of style these days. If a big buck is all somebody has to put on their tombstone then that's pretty sad. We all cherish things that are rare like big antlers but we all need to know our limitiations and when we have gone over the edge of sanity. I think its inherent and the recordbooks may add a little fuel to the fire but not the cause.


EXTREMELY well said fairchaser. I just think recordbooks, and the glorification of the hunter that kills one of these bucks, is one of the things driving the big antler obsession to the point of questionable hunter behavior and ethics.
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