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#2972967 - 10/08/12 01:54 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: fairchaser]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 41851
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
 Originally Posted By: bowriter
Why would we lose 1/2 the hunters? I would bet half the hunters don't even know what B& C or P&Y are. There would still be the hunt for horns. It just would not be so commercial and ego driven.


Your kidding right? I've never met a deer hunter who didn't know these organizations. Unless, you are talking all hunters including small game only hunters.


No, I am talking about deer hunters and it isn't a guess. When I was doing some 25-30 major outdoor shows a year, I often asked hunters in my seminars what B&C and P&Y stood for, I asked them how many belonged to or kept up with SCI. Keep in mind, this was before the big TV boom. Probably 30-40 percent never heard of any of them or cared.

See, once you get outside your circle of friends, life gets interesting. It might surprise you when 25,000 deer hunters come to an outdoor show, how little many of them know about things like this. I would wager that 30% of TN deer hunters, the ones who buy licenses, do not know or care that there is a TN deer registry.

You have to think outside the circle of hunters you know. Just for example, consider the million hunters in PA. How many of them do you think could tell you what P&Y stand for? Really, give that some thought.
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Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#2973015 - 10/08/12 02:28 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: bowriter]
fairchaser
8 Point


Registered: 09/13/11
Posts: 1204
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: bowriter
 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
 Originally Posted By: bowriter
Why would we lose 1/2 the hunters? I would bet half the hunters don't even know what B& C or P&Y are. There would still be the hunt for horns. It just would not be so commercial and ego driven.


Your kidding right? I've never met a deer hunter who didn't know these organizations. Unless, you are talking all hunters including small game only hunters.



No, I am talking about deer hunters and it isn't a guess. When I was doing some 25-30 major outdoor shows a year, I often asked hunters in my seminars what B&C and P&Y stood for, I asked them how many belonged to or kept up with SCI. Keep in mind, this was before the big TV boom. Probably 30-40 percent never heard of any of them or cared.

See, once you get outside your circle of friends, life gets interesting. It might surprise you when 25,000 deer hunters come to an outdoor show, how little many of them know about things like this. I would wager that 30% of TN deer hunters, the ones who buy licenses, do not know or care that there is a TN deer registry.

You have to think outside the circle of hunters you know. Just for example, consider the million hunters in PA. How many of them do you think could tell you what P&Y stand for? Really, give that some thought.


You may be right. People in seminars are often reluctant to say anything for fear of looking stupid. I find it very strange that people don't know these things. Then again, I don't know anyone who voted for Obama either. \:\) I guess my circle is pretty tight.
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#2973021 - 10/08/12 02:34 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: fairchaser]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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The vast majority of deer hunters only hunt a few days a year, usually opening weekend. They don't ogle over hunting or outdoor based magazine. The week before opening day of gun season, they go buy a license and then they and a buddy or two go hunting for two days. For the majority, that is it.
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Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#2973092 - 10/08/12 03:26 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: BSK]
Monty
6 Point


Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 509
Loc: Bedford Co.

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
So we wipe out P&Y and B&C.no one hunts for Trophy bucks and everyone only hunts for meat to control the herd.


No one is saying hunting for and challenging one's self against the best Nature can produce is a bad thing. The author even stated, "Taking a representative big buck or bull for a personal wall mount and utilizing all of the meat is a time-honored tradition. The problem is the reason so many are obsessed with killing high scoring bucks these days, and that is, "for fame, fortune, celebrity status, bogus awards and meaningless titles..." THAT is the problem. Once again, "Hunting isn't, nor should it be, about ego-gratification, score keeping and phony, grandiose titles."


 Quote:
bet we would lose 1/2 the hunters or more...


Bet we wouldn't. But we might lose some the worst offenders, like the TV "pro" hunters and those who idolize them.


Very well stated. Some can already see the extension of "trophyitis" with canned hunts, deer farming, and push to release these genetically "enhanced" deer into the wild to "improve" genetically inferior wild herds. Fame and fortune are pretty strong motivators. I salute the true sportsmen and sportswomen who believe in and practice fair chase.
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#2973245 - 10/08/12 05:06 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: landman]
Orion6
8 Point


Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 1504
Loc: Soddy Daisy,TN

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I doubt I'll ever kill a 140 much less a world record. I hunt because I like it. I've stopped shooting little bucks for the most part, but if I go all season without filling a tag and see a nice forkhorn or six, I'm shooting it. It's my tag and my time.

I think we need balance between the trophy craze and just good ol' hunting deer. If a guy wants to shoot only trophy class animals, that's fine. Just don't look down on us average hunters.
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#2973511 - 10/08/12 08:15 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: Orion6]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 41851
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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All true Orion. However, the problem is not so much a trophy hunter looking down on one who is not. The problem is the commercialism and totally wrong impression that conveys.

None of said we should stop hunting for trophies or stop being proud of the deer we kill whatever the size. What we, some of anyway, oppose is the blatant, ego driven commercialism. There is currently a contest going on with $10,000 in prizes to the winner. That is just plain wrong.

If no one knew who killed the world record, just when and where it was killed and the score. It would not bother me a bit.
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Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#2973865 - 10/09/12 06:26 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: Brno]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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fairchaser,

Please explain to me what good comes from recordbooks? I really can't think of anything good that comes from glorifying individual hunters.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2974476 - 10/09/12 01:58 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: BSK]
fairchaser
8 Point


Registered: 09/13/11
Posts: 1204
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
fairchaser,

Please explain to me what good comes from recordbooks? I really can't think of anything good that comes from glorifying individual hunters.


It's not just record books but all the other efforts made by these organizations that promote fairchase, conservation and hunting in general. If you remove the recordbooks, then you don't have the other. Are you saying that SCI, Buckmasters, P&Y and B&C have not given back and we would be better off as hunters if they didn't exist? I don't know anyone who hunts that has a goal of making it into the recordbooks as their primary goal(I'm sure some do) but I don't blame anyone who wants to enter their trophy into the record books any more than someone showing their picture off on this forum. Both are recognition and I don't think it distracts from hunting. I've not known anyone not wanting to put a qualifying entry in the books out of principal. Many don't care to take the trouble or pay the fees. I believe its up to the organization to keep the bad apples out of their recordbooks and become examples of positive ethical hunting behavior. If it were just recordbooks, I might agree that it would be difficult to find the good, but you don't have one without the other.
_________________________
"I always wanted to do something that was unequivocal" Charles Morris played by Anthony Hopkins in the movie the Edge.

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#2975252 - 10/10/12 06:10 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: fairchaser]
Bottom Hunter
16 Point


Registered: 12/29/06
Posts: 16316
Loc: Hatchie Bottoms

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Let's just do away with contests all together. No more World Series, no more Superbowls, heck no more Academic Scholarships for those smart kids.

IMO, hunting and fishing is just like sports. Some people play if for fun, and some play it for money, but both enjoy it.

I don't especially like individual records in team sports. But, hey, if someone wants to keep up with it , then fine. Not my job or concern.

I don't think that a ball player getting paid 100 million dollars has any effect on a game of sandlot ball anymore than a record book for deer has any effect on a man taking is son deer hunting and i don't think someone should blame the media or other hunters for the ethics of their child or themselves.

I think sometimes we try to make this world in to what we want and consider everything that we don't necessarily agree with is BAD.

IMO, when you take the time to worry about things like this, you've ruined hunting all by yourself..

if it bothers you to see hunting turning in to something you don't like, then take up tennis....For me, when I'm in the deerstand, nothing else matters....

enjoy the deer woods and quit worrying about the other guy....

JMO
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Walk away; the battle they are fighting is not with you, but with themselves.

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#2975337 - 10/10/12 07:46 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: fairchaser]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65378
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
 Originally Posted By: BSK
fairchaser,

Please explain to me what good comes from recordbooks? I really can't think of anything good that comes from glorifying individual hunters.


It's not just record books but all the other efforts made by these organizations that promote fairchase, conservation and hunting in general.


But that's just it. I don't think the recognition involved with recordbooks does anything to promote fairchase. In fact, just the opposite. Recordbooks promote the killing of extraordinary, rare and unique animals, not the general principles of hunting. In addition, they help fuel the "somebody has something I don't, and I want/deserve it too" mentality (i.e. jealousy and entitlement) that is the root of many crimes. Instead of promoting the principles of becoming a successful deer hunter by acquiring knowledge and woodsmanship skills over a lifetime of experience, they foster the "whatever it takes" to get one's name in the recordbooks and receive ego-stroking recognition. Even specific large bucks are referred to by the hunter's name (i.e. the "Hanson Buck," etc.).


 Quote:
If you remove the recordbooks, then you don't have the other.


I couldn't disagree more. I've been in the promotion of conservation and biologically sound deer management arena for a long time now, and I've not seen B&C, P&Y or SCI anywhere around during that time period.


 Quote:
Are you saying that SCI, Buckmasters, P&Y and B&C have not given back and we would be better off as hunters if they didn't exist?


That's exactly what I'm saying. Personally, I've not seen them "give back" much if anything. And I believe the results of their efforts are deterimental to hunting.


 Quote:
I don't know anyone who hunts that has a goal of making it into the recordbooks as their primary goal...


Are you kidding me? Read the posts on this site and others. I've never seen such obsession for antler scores as I'm seeing now. I'm seeing/reading many, many hunters who's entire self-worth is determined by the antler score of the bucks they kill. And many of these same people are the one's looking down their nose at and verbally denegrating any other hunter who doesn't hold out for only fully mature bucks scoring over 140 or 150. This is extremely unhealthy behavior and definitely not good for the future of hunting.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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