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#2969602 - 10/05/12 08:26 AM Hunt for records destroys hunting
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Mud Dauber
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http://www.reporterherald.com/columnists/homewaters/ci_21684278/hunt-records-may-destroy-hunting
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#2969636 - 10/05/12 08:46 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: Poser]
EastTNHunter
10 Point


Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 3004
Loc: Rhea Co., TN

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Very well put. This is the reason that ethics are so important to hunting, not just the "if its legal, then do it," or the "we should not be negative toward other hunters," arguments. Some things that we believe in as hunters seem a but trifling to argue about, but many more are of far more importance to the way that we portray ourselves to the nonhunting public. This greatly effects our hunting rights, as well as land use and other privileges and respect from nonhunters. The old saying of "pride come before the fall" definitley applies here, as if we continue to hold our noses high and wait until the tide of public perception fully turns, then we will be too late turn it back.
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#2969643 - 10/05/12 08:49 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: EastTNHunter]
hunterncoach
6 Point


Registered: 12/15/10
Posts: 700
Loc: northern middle tn

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Good Read....I'm glad many writers & a few TV hosts are starting to put the brakes on! Hopefully we don't continue down the slippery slope
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#2969674 - 10/05/12 09:08 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: hunterncoach]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN

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Exceptional article. An excellent discussion of how trophyism is such a threat to our hunting heritage.

These words bear repeating:

"...I've never been a fan of hunting contests, big rack tournaments, "tape-measure" hunting or other similar, gratuitous hunting events. They create a horribly distorted and incredibly destructive image of what traditional, fair chase hunting and game conservation is all about.

Killing animals for fame, fortune, celebrity status, bogus awards and meaningless titles... portrays us and what we do in the worst possible light to the millions of non-hunters who have little understanding of what our legitimate purpose is or what our responsibilities to our game herds and flocks are. It's evident from the number of hunting competitions, high-dollar canned hunts and closed-fence trophy hunts these days that a lot of hunters have lost sight of it too.

Hunting isn't, nor should it be, about ego-gratification, score keeping and phony, grandiose titles. Taking a representative big buck or bull for a personal wall mount and utilizing all of the meat is a time-honored tradition, but shooting animals for cash prizes or hollow recognition and then trying to convince the rest of the world that we hold our game animals in the highest regard reeks of the same kind of hypocrisy animal-rights groups practice.
"

_________________________
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#2969687 - 10/05/12 09:31 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: BSK]
Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
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Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 8003
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Great read and one that I concur with 110%. Thanks for sharing.
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#2969722 - 10/05/12 10:14 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: Andy S.]
htnseymour
8 Point


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 1542
Loc: sevier county Tn

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Great article. Man that was eye opening. Gonna show that to a couple of my "TROPHY" hunting buddies
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#2969794 - 10/05/12 11:21 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: htnseymour]
fairchaser
8 Point


Registered: 09/13/11
Posts: 1270
Loc: TN, USA

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Good article and sometimes hyperbole is used to make a point. I do want to say that the P&Y Club, B&C and more recently Buckmasters Trophy Records as well as the Tennessee Deer Registry are good for hunting and have been around way before the craze of trophyism and canned hunts for TV came about. They promote fair chase and conservation and I believe have been good for hunting. Some may see this as "hollow recognition" of a trophy but I see it as recognizing the animal as much as the hunter. I don't think this is the emphasis of the article but let's be careful we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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#2969860 - 10/05/12 12:08 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: fairchaser]
RKenney
10 Point


Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 3674
Loc: Maury Co.

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I agree with the article, but I wonder how some that agree with the article, that are deer hunters, would handle this
hypothetical situation.

Let's say that by some astronomical odds you kill the new world record typical buck. Would you except any monetary gain from it?

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#2969868 - 10/05/12 12:16 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: RKenney]
RKenney
10 Point


Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 3674
Loc: Maury Co.

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Sorry. I meant..accept.
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#2969907 - 10/05/12 12:51 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: RKenney]
Pursuit Hunter
8 Point


Registered: 10/01/08
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Very thought provoking article. While I agree with the thesis of the article in principle, the question is how to get the genie back in the bottle. We live in a culture that places a high emphasis on keeping score, winning, and recognition in virtually all aspects of life. Those values have permeated sporting pursuits to such an extent that I wonder if we can ever return to the "good old days" of pursuing game for sustenance and personal satisfaction. I suspect it will not happen.
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#2969925 - 10/05/12 01:21 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: RKenney]
Crosshairy
10 Point


Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 2686
Loc: Bartlett, TN

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 Originally Posted By: RKenney
I agree with the article, but I wonder how some that agree with the article, that are deer hunters, would handle this
hypothetical situation.

Let's say that by some astronomical odds you kill the new world record typical buck. Would you except any monetary gain from it?


Good question.

I'll preface my answer with this - I don't intentionally hunt trophies (or even exclusively mature deer), so my odds of such an event are zero.

If I were lucky enough to kill the new world record, and someone offered me $100k or whatever for the shoulder mount, I think I'm lying to myself if I said I would turn it down.

But to me, that's different than hunting deer for the purpose of killing big bucks to make money off of. If someone is silly enough to pay me an enormous amount of money for the product of me hunting for meat for the freezer (and I get to keep the meat off my deer anyway!!!), then I don't have a problem taking his money to help my situation in life.
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#2969932 - 10/05/12 01:38 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: fairchaser]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
Good article and sometimes hyperbole is used to make a point. I do want to say that the P&Y Club, B&C and more recently Buckmasters Trophy Records as well as the Tennessee Deer Registry are good for hunting and have been around way before the craze of trophyism and canned hunts for TV came about. They promote fair chase and conservation and I believe have been good for hunting.


If all of these recordbooks only entered the buck's information, and NOT the hunter's, I would agree. But the drive of some hunters to get their name in the recordbooks is part of the problem. Because of that, I would list all recordbooks that glorify the hunter as being major negatives.
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2969933 - 10/05/12 01:38 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: RKenney]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: RKenney
Let's say that by some astronomical odds you kill the new world record typical buck. Would you except any monetary gain from it?


I wouldn't even enter it in the books.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2969934 - 10/05/12 01:40 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: Pursuit Hunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Pursuit Hunter
Very thought provoking article. While I agree with the thesis of the article in principle, the question is how to get the genie back in the bottle. We live in a culture that places a high emphasis on keeping score, winning, and recognition in virtually all aspects of life. Those values have permeated sporting pursuits to such an extent that I wonder if we can ever return to the "good old days" of pursuing game for sustenance and personal satisfaction. I suspect it will not happen.


The only way I can think of is to remove hunting from the list of "sports." The word "sport" implies competition. Hunting should not be a competition between hunter;, only between hunter and prey.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2969971 - 10/05/12 01:58 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: BSK]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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I have long been a proponent of deleting the hunter's name form all record books. However, to do so would also be the death knell of the organization. Without the revenue driven by the hunter's ego, the desire to see his or her name in the record book, there be no record keep organization.

I have also long wondered,"what would be wrong with that?"
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#2969975 - 10/05/12 02:01 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: bowriter]
bowriter
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Ironic????

The two posts st the top of the current list are on a big deer killed and on an article decrying hunting for records.
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#2970039 - 10/05/12 03:49 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: bowriter]
WRbowhunter
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Registered: 02/22/10
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So we wipe out P&Y and B&C.no one hunts for Trophy bucks and everyone only hunts for meat to control the herd. bet we would lose 1/2 the hunters or more then where would we be. We just need a little more balance between the meat hunters and the trophy hunters nationwide. I think we have a pretty good balance in TN at least based on my limited experience
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#2970052 - 10/05/12 03:56 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: WRbowhunter]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
So we wipe out P&Y and B&C.no one hunts for Trophy bucks and everyone only hunts for meat to control the herd. bet we would lose 1/2 the hunters or more then where would we be. We just need a little more balance between the meat hunters and the trophy hunters nationwide. I think we have a pretty good balance in TN at least based on my limited experience


Why would we lose 1/2 the hunters? I would bet half the hunters don't even know what B& C or P&Y are. There would still be the hunt for horns. It just would not be so commercial and ego driven.
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Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#2970070 - 10/05/12 04:08 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: WRbowhunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
So we wipe out P&Y and B&C.no one hunts for Trophy bucks and everyone only hunts for meat to control the herd.


No one is saying hunting for and challenging one's self against the best Nature can produce is a bad thing. The author even stated, "Taking a representative big buck or bull for a personal wall mount and utilizing all of the meat is a time-honored tradition. The problem is the reason so many are obsessed with killing high scoring bucks these days, and that is, "for fame, fortune, celebrity status, bogus awards and meaningless titles..." THAT is the problem. Once again, "Hunting isn't, nor should it be, about ego-gratification, score keeping and phony, grandiose titles."


 Quote:
bet we would lose 1/2 the hunters or more...


Bet we wouldn't. But we might lose some the worst offenders, like the TV "pro" hunters and those who idolize them.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2970833 - 10/06/12 09:38 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: BSK]
landman
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Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 2609
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Do you REALLY think removing the names and doing away with the record books would stop the drive for killing big bucks????

You must have short memories how about the FT CAMPBELL BUST???
Done of those were record book recorded
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#2970848 - 10/06/12 10:01 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: landman]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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 Originally Posted By: landman
Do you REALLY think removing the names and doing away with the record books would stop the drive for killing big bucks????

You must have short memories how about the FT CAMPBELL BUST???
Done of those were record book recorded


No of course I don't and I don't think anybody on this thread said that. What it stops is the ego/money driven hunting that is so bad for hunting in general. That is why to delete the names from record books will not hurt hunting, just the record keeping organizations who exist primarily through the fees paid to have animals recorded.
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Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#2971604 - 10/07/12 08:24 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: Pursuit Hunter]
Coach
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I have mixed emotions on this...nothing wrong with driving to the check in station with the tailgate down
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#2971626 - 10/07/12 08:48 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: Coach]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65683
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Coach
I have mixed emotions on this...nothing wrong with driving to the check in station with the tailgate down


No, there's not anything wrong with being proud of a kill. No one is saying that. The problem is the ego-driven world of inches of antler is all that matters.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2971684 - 10/07/12 10:05 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: BSK]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Coach
I have mixed emotions on this...nothing wrong with driving to the check in station with the tailgate down


No, there's not anything wrong with being proud of a kill. No one is saying that. The problem is the ego-driven world of inches of antler is all that matters.


X2

And I feel somewhat heartened that others are now starting to see what is happening. For so long, it seemed that BSK and I were just crying in the dark. Finally, it is starting to sink in.
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Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#2972681 - 10/08/12 09:29 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: bowriter]
Brno
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First: A big THANK YOU to Poser for posting this link.

Second: I'm trying to find out how a column from a small town newspaper in CO found its way to a deer hunting forum in TN.

Poser: Can you tell me how this link came to your attention?

Thanks again for your consideration.
Bron
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#2972693 - 10/08/12 09:36 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: Brno]
Poser
Mud Dauber
16 Point


Registered: 07/28/10
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 Originally Posted By: Brno
First: A big THANK YOU to Poser for posting this link.

Second: I'm trying to find out how a column from a small town newspaper in CO found its way to a deer hunting forum in TN.

Poser: Can you tell me how this link came to your attention?

Thanks again for your consideration.
Bron


No problem. I get Google Alerts for subject matters related to hunting. Over time and through complex analytics, Google's search engine learns what subject matters seem to interest you. This article came up on my feed, the title caught my attention and the content was similar to philosophies often discussed on this forum. (At the very lease, this subject matter never fails to spark passionate debate). I thought it was a good read, so I posted it. Well done, sir.
_________________________
It doesn't have to be fun to be fun.

Wild & crazy, can't be stopped. Only the strong will survive.

Keep your knife sharp and your skillet greasy.

http://www.GoCarnivore.com

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#2972697 - 10/08/12 09:36 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: Brno]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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It is all Poser does. He searches obscure websites for articles he thinks are of interest. I'm glad he does, some of them actually are of interest but he must have a very dull life.

\:\)
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Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#2972730 - 10/08/12 10:04 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: bowriter]
Brno
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Registered: 10/07/12
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Ahh. The mystery is solved.
Thank you both for your speedy responses...
and everyone else for their commentary.

It's a touchy subject for sure.
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It ain't the arrow; it's the Indian.

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#2972912 - 10/08/12 12:50 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: BSK]
fairchaser
8 Point


Registered: 09/13/11
Posts: 1270
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: BSK


If all of these recordbooks only entered the buck's information, and NOT the hunter's, I would agree. But the drive of some hunters to get their name in the recordbooks is part of the problem. Because of that, I would list all recordbooks that glorify the hunter as being major negatives.


Since those do not exist, I assume you believe they are all negative. I agree that it may be the drive of some, but why should that ruin it for everyone else? I see this as a good outweighs the bad scenario. JMO.
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"I always wanted to do something that was unequivocal" Charles Morris played by Anthony Hopkins in the movie the Edge.

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#2972924 - 10/08/12 12:58 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: bowriter]
fairchaser
8 Point


Registered: 09/13/11
Posts: 1270
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: bowriter
Why would we lose 1/2 the hunters? I would bet half the hunters don't even know what B& C or P&Y are. There would still be the hunt for horns. It just would not be so commercial and ego driven.


Your kidding right? I've never met a deer hunter who didn't know these organizations. Unless, you are talking all hunters including small game only hunters.
_________________________
"I always wanted to do something that was unequivocal" Charles Morris played by Anthony Hopkins in the movie the Edge.

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#2972967 - 10/08/12 01:54 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: fairchaser]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
 Originally Posted By: bowriter
Why would we lose 1/2 the hunters? I would bet half the hunters don't even know what B& C or P&Y are. There would still be the hunt for horns. It just would not be so commercial and ego driven.


Your kidding right? I've never met a deer hunter who didn't know these organizations. Unless, you are talking all hunters including small game only hunters.


No, I am talking about deer hunters and it isn't a guess. When I was doing some 25-30 major outdoor shows a year, I often asked hunters in my seminars what B&C and P&Y stood for, I asked them how many belonged to or kept up with SCI. Keep in mind, this was before the big TV boom. Probably 30-40 percent never heard of any of them or cared.

See, once you get outside your circle of friends, life gets interesting. It might surprise you when 25,000 deer hunters come to an outdoor show, how little many of them know about things like this. I would wager that 30% of TN deer hunters, the ones who buy licenses, do not know or care that there is a TN deer registry.

You have to think outside the circle of hunters you know. Just for example, consider the million hunters in PA. How many of them do you think could tell you what P&Y stand for? Really, give that some thought.
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#2973015 - 10/08/12 02:28 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: bowriter]
fairchaser
8 Point


Registered: 09/13/11
Posts: 1270
Loc: TN, USA

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 Originally Posted By: bowriter
 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
 Originally Posted By: bowriter
Why would we lose 1/2 the hunters? I would bet half the hunters don't even know what B& C or P&Y are. There would still be the hunt for horns. It just would not be so commercial and ego driven.


Your kidding right? I've never met a deer hunter who didn't know these organizations. Unless, you are talking all hunters including small game only hunters.



No, I am talking about deer hunters and it isn't a guess. When I was doing some 25-30 major outdoor shows a year, I often asked hunters in my seminars what B&C and P&Y stood for, I asked them how many belonged to or kept up with SCI. Keep in mind, this was before the big TV boom. Probably 30-40 percent never heard of any of them or cared.

See, once you get outside your circle of friends, life gets interesting. It might surprise you when 25,000 deer hunters come to an outdoor show, how little many of them know about things like this. I would wager that 30% of TN deer hunters, the ones who buy licenses, do not know or care that there is a TN deer registry.

You have to think outside the circle of hunters you know. Just for example, consider the million hunters in PA. How many of them do you think could tell you what P&Y stand for? Really, give that some thought.


You may be right. People in seminars are often reluctant to say anything for fear of looking stupid. I find it very strange that people don't know these things. Then again, I don't know anyone who voted for Obama either. \:\) I guess my circle is pretty tight.
_________________________
"I always wanted to do something that was unequivocal" Charles Morris played by Anthony Hopkins in the movie the Edge.

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#2973021 - 10/08/12 02:34 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: fairchaser]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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The vast majority of deer hunters only hunt a few days a year, usually opening weekend. They don't ogle over hunting or outdoor based magazine. The week before opening day of gun season, they go buy a license and then they and a buddy or two go hunting for two days. For the majority, that is it.
_________________________

Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#2973092 - 10/08/12 03:26 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: BSK]
Monty
6 Point


Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 509
Loc: Bedford Co.

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
So we wipe out P&Y and B&C.no one hunts for Trophy bucks and everyone only hunts for meat to control the herd.


No one is saying hunting for and challenging one's self against the best Nature can produce is a bad thing. The author even stated, "Taking a representative big buck or bull for a personal wall mount and utilizing all of the meat is a time-honored tradition. The problem is the reason so many are obsessed with killing high scoring bucks these days, and that is, "for fame, fortune, celebrity status, bogus awards and meaningless titles..." THAT is the problem. Once again, "Hunting isn't, nor should it be, about ego-gratification, score keeping and phony, grandiose titles."


 Quote:
bet we would lose 1/2 the hunters or more...


Bet we wouldn't. But we might lose some the worst offenders, like the TV "pro" hunters and those who idolize them.


Very well stated. Some can already see the extension of "trophyitis" with canned hunts, deer farming, and push to release these genetically "enhanced" deer into the wild to "improve" genetically inferior wild herds. Fame and fortune are pretty strong motivators. I salute the true sportsmen and sportswomen who believe in and practice fair chase.
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#2973245 - 10/08/12 05:06 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: landman]
Orion6
8 Point


Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 1519
Loc: Soddy Daisy,TN

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I doubt I'll ever kill a 140 much less a world record. I hunt because I like it. I've stopped shooting little bucks for the most part, but if I go all season without filling a tag and see a nice forkhorn or six, I'm shooting it. It's my tag and my time.

I think we need balance between the trophy craze and just good ol' hunting deer. If a guy wants to shoot only trophy class animals, that's fine. Just don't look down on us average hunters.
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#2973511 - 10/08/12 08:15 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: Orion6]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 42055
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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All true Orion. However, the problem is not so much a trophy hunter looking down on one who is not. The problem is the commercialism and totally wrong impression that conveys.

None of said we should stop hunting for trophies or stop being proud of the deer we kill whatever the size. What we, some of anyway, oppose is the blatant, ego driven commercialism. There is currently a contest going on with $10,000 in prizes to the winner. That is just plain wrong.

If no one knew who killed the world record, just when and where it was killed and the score. It would not bother me a bit.
_________________________

Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.

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#2973865 - 10/09/12 06:26 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: Brno]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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fairchaser,

Please explain to me what good comes from recordbooks? I really can't think of anything good that comes from glorifying individual hunters.
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#2974476 - 10/09/12 01:58 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: BSK]
fairchaser
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
fairchaser,

Please explain to me what good comes from recordbooks? I really can't think of anything good that comes from glorifying individual hunters.


It's not just record books but all the other efforts made by these organizations that promote fairchase, conservation and hunting in general. If you remove the recordbooks, then you don't have the other. Are you saying that SCI, Buckmasters, P&Y and B&C have not given back and we would be better off as hunters if they didn't exist? I don't know anyone who hunts that has a goal of making it into the recordbooks as their primary goal(I'm sure some do) but I don't blame anyone who wants to enter their trophy into the record books any more than someone showing their picture off on this forum. Both are recognition and I don't think it distracts from hunting. I've not known anyone not wanting to put a qualifying entry in the books out of principal. Many don't care to take the trouble or pay the fees. I believe its up to the organization to keep the bad apples out of their recordbooks and become examples of positive ethical hunting behavior. If it were just recordbooks, I might agree that it would be difficult to find the good, but you don't have one without the other.
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#2975252 - 10/10/12 06:10 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: fairchaser]
Bottom Hunter
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Let's just do away with contests all together. No more World Series, no more Superbowls, heck no more Academic Scholarships for those smart kids.

IMO, hunting and fishing is just like sports. Some people play if for fun, and some play it for money, but both enjoy it.

I don't especially like individual records in team sports. But, hey, if someone wants to keep up with it , then fine. Not my job or concern.

I don't think that a ball player getting paid 100 million dollars has any effect on a game of sandlot ball anymore than a record book for deer has any effect on a man taking is son deer hunting and i don't think someone should blame the media or other hunters for the ethics of their child or themselves.

I think sometimes we try to make this world in to what we want and consider everything that we don't necessarily agree with is BAD.

IMO, when you take the time to worry about things like this, you've ruined hunting all by yourself..

if it bothers you to see hunting turning in to something you don't like, then take up tennis....For me, when I'm in the deerstand, nothing else matters....

enjoy the deer woods and quit worrying about the other guy....

JMO
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#2975337 - 10/10/12 07:46 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: fairchaser]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
 Originally Posted By: BSK
fairchaser,

Please explain to me what good comes from recordbooks? I really can't think of anything good that comes from glorifying individual hunters.


It's not just record books but all the other efforts made by these organizations that promote fairchase, conservation and hunting in general.


But that's just it. I don't think the recognition involved with recordbooks does anything to promote fairchase. In fact, just the opposite. Recordbooks promote the killing of extraordinary, rare and unique animals, not the general principles of hunting. In addition, they help fuel the "somebody has something I don't, and I want/deserve it too" mentality (i.e. jealousy and entitlement) that is the root of many crimes. Instead of promoting the principles of becoming a successful deer hunter by acquiring knowledge and woodsmanship skills over a lifetime of experience, they foster the "whatever it takes" to get one's name in the recordbooks and receive ego-stroking recognition. Even specific large bucks are referred to by the hunter's name (i.e. the "Hanson Buck," etc.).


 Quote:
If you remove the recordbooks, then you don't have the other.


I couldn't disagree more. I've been in the promotion of conservation and biologically sound deer management arena for a long time now, and I've not seen B&C, P&Y or SCI anywhere around during that time period.


 Quote:
Are you saying that SCI, Buckmasters, P&Y and B&C have not given back and we would be better off as hunters if they didn't exist?


That's exactly what I'm saying. Personally, I've not seen them "give back" much if anything. And I believe the results of their efforts are deterimental to hunting.


 Quote:
I don't know anyone who hunts that has a goal of making it into the recordbooks as their primary goal...


Are you kidding me? Read the posts on this site and others. I've never seen such obsession for antler scores as I'm seeing now. I'm seeing/reading many, many hunters who's entire self-worth is determined by the antler score of the bucks they kill. And many of these same people are the one's looking down their nose at and verbally denegrating any other hunter who doesn't hold out for only fully mature bucks scoring over 140 or 150. This is extremely unhealthy behavior and definitely not good for the future of hunting.
_________________________
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2975382 - 10/10/12 08:18 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: BSK]
bowriter
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Less that two days ago a picture was posted on this site of a dink buck and the primary question was, what will he score. This site and others are inundated with the "what will he score?" threads.

Book oranganization do contribute money to hunting. I just have not seen them put it anywhere that it does much good. I have seen them spend money fighting anti-hunters, usually in an amount that is about 1/10th of the money the anits spend and in areas that do no good. I saw P&Y contribute $5K to a useless school program that reached a miniscule number of schools. I have seen them get deeply involved in arguments on how to exactly score a specific head and I have seen them discriminate. I do believe if all the record keeping organzations vanished tonight, only a few would miss them.

Of the organizations, the one that does the most in terms of paying back is SCI. There is no question about that. And strangely enough, their record keeping is of the mindset, "If you killed it, no matter what it is, how big it is,where you killed it or what you killed it with, we have a place for it in our book."

To compare hunting to any of the other sports mentioned in an above post is beyond absurd. Do we kill "ball" players? But wait a minoozle. In a way, perhaps we do. I do believe some of them died from taking performance enhancing drugs. They took the drugs to be better...perhaps better enough to be in the record books. And that dang sure hurts the sports. Just as shooting a penned deer is cheating, so is taking ped's. In both cases, the goal is the same. And in both cases, it hurts the sport.
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#2975399 - 10/10/12 08:33 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: bowriter]
AndyW
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 Originally Posted By: bowriter

To compare hunting to any of the other sports mentioned in an above post is beyond absurd. Do we kill "ball" players? But wait a minoozle. In a way, perhaps we do. I do believe some of them died from taking performance enhancing drugs. They took the drugs to be better...perhaps better enough to be in the record books. And that dang sure hurts the sports. Just as shooting a penned deer is cheating, so is taking ped's. In both cases, the goal is the same. And in both cases, it hurts the sport.


Pretty good analogy BW, its like you get paid to write or something. ;\)
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#2975526 - 10/10/12 10:03 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: AndyW]
bowriter
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Speaking of which, I got a check yesterday for a thing I sold four months ago. I almost threw the envelope out unopened becasue it looked like one of those fake checks you get from somebody trying to get you to take a cruise or something.

I believe it was a piece on trophy hunting.

However, your analogy makes no sense. I get paid because I am an extremely talented and artistic writer. That has nothing to do any sport. It is sheer artism. But wait, my writing does win trophies. Is that your connection \:\)
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#2975579 - 10/10/12 10:36 AM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: Pursuit Hunter]
barkscraper
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I have a question that might not be in line but here it is. We will not let our kids watch tv that has murder after murder and blood because of the influence on their minds but then we sit down to watch a hunting show where they kill a giant every 10 minutes and we start to think we should be doing the same. So what is the difference and there is the rocket broadhead with the blood thrown on the screen just wondering what the non hunters say about us. Wonder if they would keep their kids from watching
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#2975788 - 10/10/12 01:21 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: BSK]
fairchaser
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
 Originally Posted By: BSK
fairchaser,

Please explain to me what good comes from recordbooks? I really can't think of anything good that comes from glorifying individual hunters.


It's not just record books but all the other efforts made by these organizations that promote fairchase, conservation and hunting in general.


But that's just it. I don't think the recognition involved with recordbooks does anything to promote fairchase. In fact, just the opposite. Recordbooks promote the killing of extraordinary, rare and unique animals, not the general principles of hunting. In addition, they help fuel the "somebody has something I don't, and I want/deserve it too" mentality (i.e. jealousy and entitlement) that is the root of many crimes. Instead of promoting the principles of becoming a successful deer hunter by acquiring knowledge and woodsmanship skills over a lifetime of experience, they foster the "whatever it takes" to get one's name in the recordbooks and receive ego-stroking recognition. Even specific large bucks are referred to by the hunter's name (i.e. the "Hanson Buck," etc.).


 Quote:
If you remove the recordbooks, then you don't have the other.


I couldn't disagree more. I've been in the promotion of conservation and biologically sound deer management arena for a long time now, and I've not seen B&C, P&Y or SCI anywhere around during that time period.


 Quote:
Are you saying that SCI, Buckmasters, P&Y and B&C have not given back and we would be better off as hunters if they didn't exist?


That's exactly what I'm saying. Personally, I've not seen them "give back" much if anything. And I believe the results of their efforts are deterimental to hunting.


 Quote:
I don't know anyone who hunts that has a goal of making it into the recordbooks as their primary goal...


Are you kidding me? Read the posts on this site and others. I've never seen such obsession for antler scores as I'm seeing now. I'm seeing/reading many, many hunters who's entire self-worth is determined by the antler score of the bucks they kill. And many of these same people are the one's looking down their nose at and verbally denegrating any other hunter who doesn't hold out for only fully mature bucks scoring over 140 or 150. This is extremely unhealthy behavior and definitely not good for the future of hunting.


I respect your opinion Bryan but we just have a difference views here. You make valid points and I will have to give them more thought. Anything worth doing can be overdone and obsessed over. That goes for hunting and antler scores. I've seen deer hunters do some pretty stupid things for a big buck. May-be its all due to recordbooks but I doubt it. It comes down to character which seems to be out of style these days. If a big buck is all somebody has to put on their tombstone then that's pretty sad. We all cherish things that are rare like big antlers but we all need to know our limitiations and when we have gone over the edge of sanity. I think its inherent and the recordbooks may add a little fuel to the fire but not the cause.
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#2975819 - 10/10/12 01:40 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: barkscraper]
bowriter
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 Originally Posted By: barkscraper
I have a question that might not be in line but here it is. We will not let our kids watch tv that has murder after murder and blood because of the influence on their minds but then we sit down to watch a hunting show where they kill a giant every 10 minutes and we start to think we should be doing the same. So what is the difference and there is the rocket broadhead with the blood thrown on the screen just wondering what the non hunters say about us. Wonder if they would keep their kids from watching


I suspect they do. However, I doubt if many of them even know about hunting shows. My sister is a staunch anti-hunter and she had no idea such shows existed.

But here is a better question. Should we be letting our kids watch those shows? Would they not start wondering what daddy (mommy) is doing because they don't kill those kinds of deer every time?

Should there be a board of sensor for outdoor programming?

And should this be a seperate topic thread?
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#2975847 - 10/10/12 02:07 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: bowriter]
Winchester
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Its all in what you make of it or take it for!
I agree many shows and organizations are nothing but a place to chest thump and say look at me! This is definitely bad for the long term of the Sport and tradition of hunting!
I think the record books should definitely exist, but with only the deer and their exceptional features listed, no Hunters name unless you request it. This puts it all back to admiring the animal, not who killed it!
I know many young people and adults alike are duped in to thinking the wrong thing from watching many shows and reading many trophy reports. That said, it takes a pretty naive and gullible person to believe everything he reads and see's on TV/Internet. As I have said before, common sense goes a long way, just unfortunate that its not nearly as COMMON as it needs to be!!!

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#2975860 - 10/10/12 02:20 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: Winchester]
bowriter
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I agree Westchester, pretty well said.
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#2975865 - 10/10/12 02:23 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: bowriter]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: bowriter
But here is a better question. Should we be letting our kids watch those shows? Would they not start wondering what daddy (mommy) is doing because they don't kill those kinds of deer every time?


It isn't even about mommy or daddy not killing that size deer. These TV shows send a very negative message about hunting--that it is about hooting and hollering and acting like a fool over a dead big buck, and nothing else. I would never let my daughter watch these shows, although she does hunt with me and has no problem with hunting/killing.
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#2975871 - 10/10/12 02:25 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: fairchaser]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: fairchaser
Anything worth doing can be overdone and obsessed over. That goes for hunting and antler scores. I've seen deer hunters do some pretty stupid things for a big buck. May-be its all due to recordbooks but I doubt it. It comes down to character which seems to be out of style these days. If a big buck is all somebody has to put on their tombstone then that's pretty sad. We all cherish things that are rare like big antlers but we all need to know our limitiations and when we have gone over the edge of sanity. I think its inherent and the recordbooks may add a little fuel to the fire but not the cause.


EXTREMELY well said fairchaser. I just think recordbooks, and the glorification of the hunter that kills one of these bucks, is one of the things driving the big antler obsession to the point of questionable hunter behavior and ethics.
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#2975885 - 10/10/12 02:30 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: Winchester]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: Winchester
I think the record books should definitely exist, but with only the deer and their exceptional features listed, no Hunters name unless you request it. This puts it all back to admiring the animal, not who killed it!


I can absolutely agree with that Winchester. Who isn't amazed and transfixed by the very outer limits of what Nature can produce? I am.


 Quote:
I know many young people and adults alike are duped in to thinking the wrong thing from watching many shows and reading many trophy reports. That said, it takes a pretty naive and gullible person to believe everything he reads and see's on TV/Internet. As I have said before, common sense goes a long way, just unfortunate that its not nearly as COMMON as it needs to be!!!


The one major downside to the idea that TV hunting shows are "just entertainment," or that a little common sense will solve the problems, is that it has been proven over and over and over again that propoganda works. Hear/see something enough times, and it WILL sink into your subconcious. This is the sound scientific basis of advertising, marketing and political rhetoric. Companies/politicians spend so much on these things because they WORK.
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2975932 - 10/10/12 02:56 PM Re: Hunt for records destroys hunting [Re: BSK]
bowriter
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I agree 100% of all in the above posts.

I also have no problem with record books. I just don't want the hunter's name included. I was a member of P&Y for nine years although I never sent a head in or had one scored for "the book". The book standard of 125" was a measure we used to rate bucks. Then, it became a measure of success. Then, something I can't expalin.

Today I hate it when I hear, "Will he book?" There should only be one measure of whether or not a hunter shoots a buck. Assuming it is legal, that one measure should be, does he want to shoot him? Nothing else matters. Not one thing.
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