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#2967716 - 10/03/12 09:15 PM Shoot'n smokelss powder
FOX FIRE
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i spoke with a guy last week & I mentioned the savage that shoots with smokeless powder, he told me " all ya have to do is cut back on the amount & any of them will shoot it", I'm think just a matter of time before he melts his eyebrows off but really dont know since I've been away from black powder guns so long.

What say you ?? can it be done or has some one here tried it??
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#2967747 - 10/03/12 09:31 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: FOX FIRE]
Wobblyshot1
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Sounds like the next candidate for the Darwin Award.
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#2967826 - 10/03/12 09:55 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: Wobblyshot1]
FOX FIRE
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HA !! I hear ya.
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#2967849 - 10/03/12 10:04 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: FOX FIRE]
Deer Assassin
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i hope you his beneficiary
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#2967888 - 10/03/12 10:35 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: Deer Assassin]
CAMARO12
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I have two buddies who have been shooting smokeless powder in their muzzleloaders for years with no problems. One shoots an Encore and the other shoots a CVA Accura.
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#2968139 - 10/04/12 07:51 AM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: CAMARO12]
ratsnakeboogy
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It's seldom talked about on open forums for very good reason. Some guns will handle it, some won't. The problem is you really don't know which ones will, and some might do great for 30 shots and then send a nice chunk of steel through your face.

Smokeless powder is an explosive, where as subs have a more even burn rate. If you double load 777 it's going to hurt, if you double load H4198 you could be dead.

Add to all this the many types of smokeless powders that have extremely FAST burn rates i.e. pistol and shotgun powders and you have the potential for bubba loading up 70grains of BlueDot is his Knight Wolverine. That folks takes a lot of time to gather up all the pieces to put Humpty Dumpty in the body bag.

It's not smart and not advisable even for people that know what they are doing.

It can be done, has been done, you just don't ever know when the next shot could go very wrong.

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#2968638 - 10/04/12 01:35 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: ratsnakeboogy]
Rockhound
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DO NOT TRY IT!!!!!!
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#2968673 - 10/04/12 02:07 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: CAMARO12]
FrontierGander
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 Originally Posted By: CAMARO12
I have two buddies who have been shooting smokeless powder in their muzzleloaders for years with no problems. One shoots an Encore and the other shoots a CVA Accura.


Your 2 friends are idiots to put it nicely.
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#2968874 - 10/04/12 04:25 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: FrontierGander]
CAMARO12
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 Originally Posted By: FrontierGander
 Originally Posted By: CAMARO12
I have two buddies who have been shooting smokeless powder in their muzzleloaders for years with no problems. One shoots an Encore and the other shoots a CVA Accura.


Your 2 friends are idiots to put it nicely.
I disagree. They are very meticulous when it comes to weighing their powder charge. I really don't see how a Savage "Smokeless" muzzleloader is any stronger than an Encore or any other inline for that matter.

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#2968891 - 10/04/12 04:35 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: FrontierGander]
cecil30-30
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 Originally Posted By: FrontierGander
 Originally Posted By: CAMARO12
I have two buddies who have been shooting smokeless powder in their muzzleloaders for years with no problems. One shoots an Encore and the other shoots a CVA Accura.


Your 2 friends are idiots to put it nicely.
I have to agree..Not very smart on their part..Big difference between smokeless powder and blackpowder...BIG difference.They have a bigger set of cajones than I...


Edited by cecil30-30 (10/04/12 04:35 PM)
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#2968928 - 10/04/12 04:58 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: cecil30-30]
CAMARO12
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Well then, someone explain why the Savage is safer????
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#2968931 - 10/04/12 04:59 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: cecil30-30]
FrontierGander
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cajones has nothing to do with it, the big reason they do it is because they are stupid and know no better.

The breech plug and the barrel steel of the savage was MADE for smokeless powder. Guys like this are the ones you see on websites saying their guns blew up and they didnt do anything wrong. Its all good and fun until the day that breech plug or barrel lets loose.

The Accuras frame isn't even of material made to handle smokeless powder stress loads.
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#2969115 - 10/04/12 07:56 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: FrontierGander]
FOX FIRE
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Its all fun & games till someone gets ther face put out, dont think I'd try it, aint worth have'n to have surgery to replace your face.
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When I was just a baby, my mama told me son, always be a good boy, dont ever play with guns.

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#2969184 - 10/04/12 08:39 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: FOX FIRE]
Wobblyshot1
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I've personally witnessed a model 101 Winchester explode. Somehow a mistake was made by the owner who also had reloaded the shells he was shooting with smokeless powder. The top and bottom barrel separated with the upper barrel being hurled end over end farther than I could have heaved it. The breech block was totally destroyed. The shooter was obviously injured and in retrospect blessed to be alive. The injury was not for the weak of stomach as there was plenty of blood. The 101 is a strong gun and designed to handle stout charges of smokeless powder. Those muzzle loaders are definately not intended for use with smokeless. If it were me, I'd do everything I could to get my buddies to cease this dangerous practice..
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#2969203 - 10/04/12 08:50 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: CAMARO12]
Deer Assassin
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 Originally Posted By: CAMARO12
Well then, someone explain why the Savage is safer????


materials the bbl frame made of not designed for pressures of smokless loads
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#2969204 - 10/04/12 08:50 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: CAMARO12]
ratsnakeboogy
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 Originally Posted By: CAMARO12
Well then, someone explain why the Savage is safer????


I'll attempt to, but I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls. I'm not saying that what you are suggesting is gauranteed to blow people up, just that there are weak points in a muzzleloader not designed for smokeless powder.

The Savage has a bolt that locks down into the receiver, whereas most bolt muzzleloaders have a weak bolt retention pin. If the breech plug lets loose on one of these, you will get the bolt installed into your head.

The plug on the Savage in about twice as long as most regular muzzleloader plugs, has more threads, and the threads are thicker and deeper than most.

The shank of the Savage barrel is thicker, and carries that thickness out farther through the "danger zone" where most of the pressure spike occurs in smokeless powders. This is not designed into most common muzzleloaders. Like I said earlier, it could be fine for many shots and then banana peel with no warning.

As for break-action muzzleloaders, several have aluminum or pot metal frames. Under smokeless pressures they can shatter after several shots. Again, you never know how many.

That's just a few reasons, I'm sure there are many more.

Once again, I'm not trying to be a smarta$$. Do what you want, just be aware that there are differences and the differences do matter.

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#2969252 - 10/04/12 09:14 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: ratsnakeboogy]
Rockhound
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The steel in a reg. Barrel are not made with smokeless in mind, savages are
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#2969271 - 10/04/12 09:25 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: Rockhound]
ratsnakeboogy
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 Originally Posted By: Rockhound
The steel in a reg. Barrel are not made with smokeless in mind, savages are


That's somewhat true depending on the manufacturer. Several barrels made In Spain were made of substandard steels and alloys.

However, several manufactures use the same barrel steel for both rifle and muzzleloaders.

Remington used the same barrel blanks (Douglas) for their 700 muzzleloader as they used for model 700 rifles. I still wouldn't load smokeless into them.

I have several 700 muzzleloaders, and two of them have custom smokeless barrels. There is no comparison between the standard barrel and the custom smokeless barrels. You can easily see the custom barrels are engineered to shoot smokeless powders safely.

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#2970478 - 10/05/12 10:06 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: ratsnakeboogy]
FOX FIRE
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Seems ther was a story sevral years ago of a guy who had a savage blow up on him, I even seen some pics that were posted up & it was pretty bad, but dont know if it was ever clarified as truth or internet garbage.
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When I was just a baby, my mama told me son, always be a good boy, dont ever play with guns.

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#2970514 - 10/05/12 10:40 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: CAMARO12]
redblood
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 Originally Posted By: CAMARO12
I have two buddies who have been shooting smokeless powder in their muzzleloaders for years with no problems. One shoots an Encore and the other shoots a CVA Accura.


A lot of folks do it
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#2970550 - 10/05/12 11:10 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: redblood]
FrontierGander
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they arent around to tell you their experience though ;\)
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#2970641 - 10/06/12 05:36 AM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: FOX FIRE]
Rockhound
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 Originally Posted By: FOX FIRE
Seems ther was a story sevral years ago of a guy who had a savage blow up on him, I even seen some pics that were posted up & it was pretty bad, but dont know if it was ever clarified as truth or internet garbage.





I think it was purty well fault of the user, ive seen pics and read alot. Alot of people say the powder burns in the barrel were almost 2 inches thick! Thats alot of powder
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#2971017 - 10/06/12 01:49 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: Rockhound]
Deer Whisperer
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Loading smokeless powder in a regular mz......
It's all good, right up to the point where it turns bad. The problem is that there will be no warning.

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#2974801 - 10/09/12 06:55 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: cecil30-30]
bassinbrian
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I have a friend that shot it and liked it, but he decided it was to big a risk if he misjudged his load. He now shoots BH209 and loves it.
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#2975311 - 10/10/12 07:13 AM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: cecil30-30]
deerjackie
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Dont do it
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#2978218 - 10/12/12 04:01 AM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: ratsnakeboogy]
tasaman
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Registered: 01/11/10
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 Originally Posted By: ratsnakeboogy
Smokeless powder is an explosive, where as subs have a more even burn rate. If you double load 777 it's going to hurt, if you double load H4198 you could be dead.

Add to all this the many types of smokeless powders that have extremely FAST burn rates i.e. pistol and shotgun powders and you have the potential for bubba loading up 70grains of BlueDot is his Knight Wolverine. That folks takes a lot of time to gather up all the pieces to put Humpty Dumpty in the body bag.


Ok there some truths here and some that are not quite. First is regular old black powder is an explosive. Smokeless is not an explosive but burns at a very measurable and repeatable rate. The gas created by the ignition of smokeless expands and pushes the projectile down the barrel. BP subs are somewhat of a blending of the two different characteristics. Especially BH 209 which does contain nitro.

The common book loads for the Savage ML all use slower buning powder such as AA5744, SR4759 and N110.

As for the reason the Savage is smokeless approved...the gun is proof tested to more than twice the max pressure of the book loads. 135,000 psi if memory is not failing again. My book load is about 43,000 psi.

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#2978409 - 10/12/12 08:12 AM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: tasaman]
ratsnakeboogy
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 Originally Posted By: tasaman
 Originally Posted By: ratsnakeboogy
Smokeless powder is an explosive, where as subs have a more even burn rate. If you double load 777 it's going to hurt, if you double load H4198 you could be dead.

Add to all this the many types of smokeless powders that have extremely FAST burn rates i.e. pistol and shotgun powders and you have the potential for bubba loading up 70grains of BlueDot is his Knight Wolverine. That folks takes a lot of time to gather up all the pieces to put Humpty Dumpty in the body bag.


Ok there some truths here and some that are not quite. First is regular old black powder is an explosive. Smokeless is not an explosive but burns at a very measurable and repeatable rate. The gas created by the ignition of smokeless expands and pushes the projectile down the barrel. BP subs are somewhat of a blending of the two different characteristics. Especially BH 209 which does contain nitro.

The common book loads for the Savage ML all use slower buning powder such as AA5744, SR4759 and N110.

As for the reason the Savage is smokeless approved...the gun is proof tested to more than twice the max pressure of the book loads. 135,000 psi if memory is not failing again. My book load is about 43,000 psi.


Black Powder is an explosive, an unstable one at that. Even sharp impact can set it off under certain conditions. Anything Nitro-cellulose based is considered an explosive, where as most sub powders (not including BH209) are a blend of materials usually sugar based. Yes smokeless burns at a repeatable rate, and some are easily metered. If you were to see the pressure wave and spike between smokeless and common subs it would leave no doubt as to why one would call smokeless powder an explosive.
Dynamite ingnites at a very repeatable rate, as does C-4. The difference is speed of ignition and the pressure wave it creates along with the wavelength generated.

As for proof testing, most quality barrels meet or exceed the numbers you gave with an exception of very light contour, or barrles made overseas with suspect steel. In other words, they are ALL designed to withstand a double-load of powder(powder they were intended to use). The problem arises when you not only double load powder but projectile as well, or leave your ramrod in the barrel, or seat a bullet 4 inches above the charge. The pressure spikes on some of these scenarios easily exceed the pressure maximum you listed.

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#2978433 - 10/12/12 08:24 AM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: ratsnakeboogy]
ratsnakeboogy
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Those powders you listed are nowhere near slow to me, maybe you have a different idea than me on this. They are pretty dang speedy for rifle powders.
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#2989569 - 10/19/12 06:12 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: ratsnakeboogy]
tasaman
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Slow burning does not mean slow fps.
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#2989675 - 10/19/12 07:43 PM Re: Shoot'n smokelss powder [Re: tasaman]
ratsnakeboogy
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Registered: 08/28/08
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 Originally Posted By: tasaman
Slow burning does not mean slow fps.


I agree, but they aren't slow burning either. Not for rifle powders.

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