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#2933821 - 09/06/12 07:37 AM Re: Timber Advice... [Re: timberjack86]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65683
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: timberjack86
I tell everyone before you hire a timber guy ask him for some refrences to call. There is nothing better than talking with landowners he has worked for in the past and finding out how satisfied they were with the job he did. If he wont provide refrences find another logger that will!


EXCELLENT advice.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2936080 - 09/08/12 04:03 AM Re: Timber Advice... [Re: Football Hunter]
Swampster
4 Point


Registered: 10/14/00
Posts: 426
Loc: Huron, TN, USA

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I've never cut mine, but have always also read that you should hire a forester to oversee the whole process. For most people, this is usually a once in a lifetime transaction if you are talking hardwood. He might also be able to help you decide WHEN to sell. I have no idea what prices are doing now. I would think the sluggish economy might have dampened demand a little. Unemployment and the dry summer may have put more wood on the market as well.

You might drive around your county and look for areas that have been logged over the last year or so. Contact the owner and ask about his experience and maybe a tour of the land. Property Assessment web page will help you locate the owner if you don't know. Good luck and don't get into a hurry.

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#2939716 - 09/11/12 03:07 PM Re: Timber Advice... [Re: timberjack86]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2678
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

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I'm getting ready to contact a State Forester. Have any of you heard anything good or bad or dealt with any of the following individuals?
D.D. Nielsen
Greg Hutson
Mark Kettenbeil
Jeff Holt
W. Jim Cortese
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"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
-Ronald Firbank

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#2939725 - 09/11/12 03:23 PM Re: Timber Advice... [Re: BlountArrow]
smstone22
16 Point


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 16924
Loc: Allardt, TN

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I know Cortese has the experience and definitely the certifications and education in regards to everything tree related. I dont personally know the man but have seen alot of his urban work. He is one of the educated few fighting this tree topping deal. My horticulture professor does some work with and for them from time to time.
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#2939863 - 09/11/12 05:33 PM Re: Timber Advice... [Re: smstone22]
smstone22
16 Point


Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 16924
Loc: Allardt, TN

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Ill add a bit. Whenever timber is being cut in my area, I find out who is cutting and just watch how they do on those jobs. The big thing for me is to look at the loggers own lands. If a logger has been successful then he will likely own timberland and quite a bit of it to cut when timber is high and between jobs. If a logger manages his own timber and land properly, then that is more likely to transfer to your land as well. I look at some loggers places here and they have terrible erosion problems, leave lots of damaged trees behind, break tops out at a high percentage, dont smooth roads back over,etc etc. Then I look at the guys place that I will use and have used and his timber cuts are perfectly done.
_________________________
-QDM=Better Deer, Better Deer Hunting
-Let Him Go, So He Can Grow

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#2940422 - 09/12/12 05:52 AM Re: Timber Advice... [Re: smstone22]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2678
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

content Online
 Originally Posted By: smstone22
I know Cortese has the experience and definitely the certifications and education in regards to everything tree related. I dont personally know the man but have seen alot of his urban work. He is one of the educated few fighting this tree topping deal. My horticulture professor does some work with and for them from time to time.


I'm definitely going to go through a Certified Forester as mentioned, and I did speak with Cortese who put me in contact with Jeff Holt. Apparently he and Holt work together and Cortese sticks to the urban stuff and Holt is the guy that tromps around in the woods.

I did learn something interesting about the current timber market. Prices are down, that is not shocking. However, Holt told me I need to be prepared to wait possibly up to 2 years to get all the money and for the 60 - 80 acre job to complete. Maybe that is common knowledge to some of you, but that surprised me. I just assumed a logger turned in a bid, got hired, payed some up front, cut the timber, job completes, and pays the rest of the money owed. Holt made it sound to me like it is becoming common place for the loggers to cut a little at a time as the mills demand it and I'm sure the price fluctuations influences when it is cut as well. I'm not hurting for the money, but the thought of someone being essentially an "occupant" on my land for 2 years I don't like. Guaranteed there will be schedule conflicts and times when he's there that I don't want him to be, etc, etc. Oh well, I'm still going to do it and have Holt do a site visit with me.
_________________________
"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
-Ronald Firbank

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#2940499 - 09/12/12 06:57 AM Re: Timber Advice... [Re: BlountArrow]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65683
Loc: Nashville, TN

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BlountArrow,

With my last logger, I wrote a contract that lasted for 2 years, but the contract also specified he could not cut butween Oct. 1 and Jan. 15 (basically, deer season).
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2940552 - 09/12/12 07:52 AM Re: Timber Advice... [Re: BSK]
BlountArrow
10 Point


Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 2678
Loc: SouthEast Tenn

content Online
 Originally Posted By: BSK
BlountArrow,

With my last logger, I wrote a contract that lasted for 2 years, but the contract also specified he could not cut butween Oct. 1 and Jan. 15 (basically, deer season).


That's smart. I need to change my thought process here, not back myself into a corner, and at least try to put some of my own reasonable stipulations in place. Thanks for mentioning that.
_________________________
"The world is so dreadfully managed, one hardly knows to whom to complain."
-Ronald Firbank

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#2941124 - 09/12/12 04:36 PM Re: Timber Advice... [Re: BlountArrow]
timberjack86
14 Point


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 8120
Loc: Grundy county

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 Originally Posted By: BlountArrow
 Originally Posted By: smstone22
I know Cortese has the experience and definitely the certifications and education in regards to everything tree related. I dont personally know the man but have seen alot of his urban work. He is one of the educated few fighting this tree topping deal. My horticulture professor does some work with and for them from time to time.


I'm definitely going to go through a Certified Forester as mentioned, and I did speak with Cortese who put me in contact with Jeff Holt. Apparently he and Holt work together and Cortese sticks to the urban stuff and Holt is the guy that tromps around in the woods.

I did learn something interesting about the current timber market. Prices are down, that is not shocking. However, Holt told me I need to be prepared to wait possibly up to 2 years to get all the money and for the 60 - 80 acre job to complete. Maybe that is common knowledge to some of you, but that surprised me. I just assumed a logger turned in a bid, got hired, payed some up front, cut the timber, job completes, and pays the rest of the money owed. Holt made it sound to me like it is becoming common place for the loggers to cut a little at a time as the mills demand it and I'm sure the price fluctuations influences when it is cut as well. I'm not hurting for the money, but the thought of someone being essentially an "occupant" on my land for 2 years I don't like. Guaranteed there will be schedule conflicts and times when he's there that I don't want him to be, etc, etc. Oh well, I'm still going to do it and have Holt do a site visit with me.
I just sighned a contract for 300 acres the other day. Heres the way we do it. I always insist that the landowner consider doing the job on a percentage. When we buy standing timber up front not only are we taking a risk at losing money the landowner is taking a risk.When we cruise timber there is always something you miss or the trees could be bad in the heart or there could be more money in it than what we see. That would equal more money for the landowner. When we cruise a track of timber we give an low estimate of what we think the landowner will get with the current timber prices. Say its a small track and we guarantee $10,000. We think it will do better than that but you can never tell what the market will be or what the trees look like on the inside. But if we guarantee $10,000 the landowner will get it regardless. We may lose money but thats why we estimate low. If the track cuts out $20,000 the landower will get it and he will be pleasently suprised, And useally thats the way it goes.Thats just the way I do it and it works for me. But by all means hire a forester.They can give you a good estimate of your timbers value that way your not at the mercy of a crooked logger and believe they are alot of them. A 60-80 acre job shouldnt take a logger any longer than 8 or 9 months.Unless we have really wet year and you have steep terrain or really swampy ground. Sorry for the long post.


Edited by timberjack86 (09/12/12 04:38 PM)
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#2941763 - 09/13/12 06:32 AM Re: Timber Advice... [Re: timberjack86]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 65683
Loc: Nashville, TN

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timberjack86,

Thanks for an excellent description of the process.

Each of the options have their upsides and downsides. An upfront bid payment has the upside of the landowner getting paid in full up front. However, as you mention, the logger must bid low to ensure they make a profit. The percentage of logs sold process has the best chance of maximizing income for the landowner. Yet this also opens the door for a logger high-grading out the most profitable trees and leaving the job unfinished.

As a landowner, you take your chances either way. Either get your money up front, but realizing you aren't getting anywhere near the real value of the timber, versus getting the real value but potentially not getting the job done and potentially having the best timber removed, hence much lower chances of interesting another logger in the future. I've been both burned and pleased with both types of contracts.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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