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#2922751 - 08/27/12 09:42 PM Re: Carrier Strike Group Rushes To Persian Gulf [Re: Wildcat]
FLTENNHUNTER1
16 Point


Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 16499
Loc: Tampa FL

Offline
If Israel wanted to bring them to their knees they could use an EMP and set them back decades.
_________________________
"The fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follow that, and in its turn wretchedness and oppression."
--Thomas Jefferson

17.9 Trillion http://www.usdebtclock.org/

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#2922924 - 08/28/12 06:21 AM Re: Carrier Strike Group Rushes To Persian Gulf [Re: de novo]
BMan
16 Point


Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 10649
Loc: Middle TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Novocaine
 Originally Posted By: BMan
The Israelis have acted, and will continue to act, in the best interests of Israel.

I respect them for that.

If you truly understand the entire story about the Liberty attack, you'll know they were indeed acting in their best interests then as well. In that case, political interests over military ones.


Please fill me in on the entire story so I can understand and give them "respect" for their actions. After reading the accounts of the attack- "respect" is the last thing on my mind.


No, I won't. Do it yourself, but bear in mind that until you do a lot more research than it appears you have, you know very little of the actual story.

Here's a little field trip for you: go find a couple of the books written about the event, and get a far more in-depth understanding than a few conspiracy theory web sites full of half-truths.

Bear in mind that all nations, including our own, have done things in the past that many find wrong. Do I agree with the attack on the Liberty? No. Do I understand why it occurred? Yes; and so do the collectors who were on the Liberty (I have met two of them, both of whom, incidentally, blame the U.S. government and not the Israelis).
_________________________
Rules are for people who lose fights.

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#2922932 - 08/28/12 06:29 AM Re: Carrier Strike Group Rushes To Persian Gulf [Re: Wildcat]
BMan
16 Point


Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 10649
Loc: Middle TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Wildcat
 Originally Posted By: BMan
 Originally Posted By: Wildcat
I still don't see Israel hitting Iran with planes. They don't have the birds with the legs to reach Iran and back With Iraq they only had to hit one single target and that ended Iraq's nuclear program. With Iran it's spread out and most are underground. If Irsael is going to do anything it will be on the ground.

Iran may have multiple sites doing refining, but at some point they have to bring everything together in one spot to build warheads.

And that's when the strike will occur.


That will only delay a couple bombs being build for a few weeks at most. If Israel is serious of stoping Iran they HAVE to shut it down across tha board. Iran spread all it out for a reason.

Had Japan hit Tinian while the parts were put together all they would have done is delayed the bombing by a few months.

The bombs weren't built in Tinian...

Building a nuclear warhead isn't a simple thing like filling in a casing with explosives; we're talking extremely precise machining of highly refined uranium/plutonium. It's also the one point in the process where all of the "marbles", so to speak, will be in one location and vulnerable.
_________________________
Rules are for people who lose fights.

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#2922945 - 08/28/12 06:52 AM Re: Carrier Strike Group Rushes To Persian Gulf [Re: BMan]
348Winchester
6 Point


Registered: 08/13/12
Posts: 959
Loc: Coon Creek

Offline
The real attack on real liberty has been launched by the United States government against its own citizens.
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#2922953 - 08/28/12 06:58 AM Re: Carrier Strike Group Rushes To Persian Gulf [Re: BMan]
Wildcat
Non-Typical


Registered: 06/10/00
Posts: 42619
Loc: Western Ky.

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BMan
 Originally Posted By: Wildcat
 Originally Posted By: BMan
 Originally Posted By: Wildcat
I still don't see Israel hitting Iran with planes. They don't have the birds with the legs to reach Iran and back With Iraq they only had to hit one single target and that ended Iraq's nuclear program. With Iran it's spread out and most are underground. If Irsael is going to do anything it will be on the ground.

Iran may have multiple sites doing refining, but at some point they have to bring everything together in one spot to build warheads.

And that's when the strike will occur.


That will only delay a couple bombs being build for a few weeks at most. If Israel is serious of stoping Iran they HAVE to shut it down across tha board. Iran spread all it out for a reason.

Had Japan hit Tinian while the parts were put together all they would have done is delayed the bombing by a few months.

The bombs weren't built in Tinian...

Building a nuclear warhead isn't a simple thing like filling in a casing with explosives; we're talking extremely precise machining of highly refined uranium/plutonium. It's also the one point in the process where all of the "marbles", so to speak, will be in one location and vulnerable.


They WERE put together on Tinian.

The USS Indianapolis brought in the most important "PARTS" of the two bombs. The other parts were already on Tinian. it was all put together the day before liftoff. People think the ship carried the "bombs" themselves but it did not, only the important "parts".
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Obama, “the very danger the Constitution was designed to avoid." Liberal law professor Jonathan Turley.




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#2923086 - 08/28/12 08:40 AM Re: Carrier Strike Group Rushes To Persian Gulf [Re: Wildcat]
BMan
16 Point


Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 10649
Loc: Middle TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Wildcat
 Originally Posted By: BMan
 Originally Posted By: Wildcat
 Originally Posted By: BMan
 Originally Posted By: Wildcat
I still don't see Israel hitting Iran with planes. They don't have the birds with the legs to reach Iran and back With Iraq they only had to hit one single target and that ended Iraq's nuclear program. With Iran it's spread out and most are underground. If Irsael is going to do anything it will be on the ground.

Iran may have multiple sites doing refining, but at some point they have to bring everything together in one spot to build warheads.

And that's when the strike will occur.


That will only delay a couple bombs being build for a few weeks at most. If Israel is serious of stoping Iran they HAVE to shut it down across tha board. Iran spread all it out for a reason.

Had Japan hit Tinian while the parts were put together all they would have done is delayed the bombing by a few months.

The bombs weren't built in Tinian...

Building a nuclear warhead isn't a simple thing like filling in a casing with explosives; we're talking extremely precise machining of highly refined uranium/plutonium. It's also the one point in the process where all of the "marbles", so to speak, will be in one location and vulnerable.


They WERE put together on Tinian.

The USS Indianapolis brought in the most important "PARTS" of the two bombs. The other parts were already on Tinian. it was all put together the day before liftoff. People think the ship carried the "bombs" themselves but it did not, only the important "parts".

I'll grant you they were assembled in Tinian. That's a far cry from machining the components - including the key components, the fissile ones - which took place in the U.S. over several months.

The bottom line is, the only thing that has to be destroyed is the fissile materials as they are being machined. Attacking the numerous centrifuges is neither necessary nor the best approach.
_________________________
Rules are for people who lose fights.

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#2923591 - 08/28/12 03:07 PM Re: Carrier Strike Group Rushes To Persian Gulf [Re: BMan]
de novo
10 Point


Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 4032
Loc: Middle TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BMan


No, I won't. Do it yourself, but bear in mind that until you do a lot more research than it appears you have, you know very little of the actual story.

Here's a little field trip for you: go find a couple of the books written about the event, and get a far more in-depth understanding than a few conspiracy theory web sites full of half-truths.

Bear in mind that all nations, including our own, have done things in the past that many find wrong. Do I agree with the attack on the Liberty? No. Do I understand why it occurred? Yes; and so do the collectors who were on the Liberty (I have met two of them, both of whom, incidentally, blame the U.S. government and not the Israelis).


Very effective debate strategy:
1. I'm right; however, I'll provide no evidence or sources.
2. You go find a book to prove I'm right, and you're wrong.
That's comical.

You made an assertion and then to back it up, I need to go read a book (title unprovided) to prove you're right. So in review, the US is attacked and suffers nearly 200 casualties and 1. You respect and understand why we were attacked and 2. imply it's our fault anyway.

I've read several books, articles, and conspiracy theory websites going back to the 1980's on this incident. I've read every version of the attack from all sides so, no, more research from my end isn't necessary. There are many more Liberty veterans who dispute your assertion than your two anonymous sources.

Here are two hardly unbiased sites (The ADL and The Jewish Virtual Library) with versions to back up your claims which inexplicably you chose not to provide yourself for those interested in this attack.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty1.html

http://www.adl.org/israel/uss.asp

These findings notwithstanding, the case of the assault on the Liberty has never been closed. If anything, the accusations leveled against Israel have grown sharper with time. In recent years, an impressive number of former American officials have gone on record insisting that the Israeli action was, in fact, deliberate. These include Adm. Thomas H. Moorer, who was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) at the time of the Liberty incident, who has labeled the episode a "cover-up," adding that he "cannot accept the claim by the Israelis that this was a case of mistaken identity."1 Paul C. Warnke, then Under Secretary of the Navy, has written that

I found it hard to believe that it was, in fact, an honest mistake on the part of the Israeli air force units.... I suspect that in the heat of battle they figured that the presence of this American ship was inimical to their interests....
_________________________
“Reality is what continues to exist whether you believe in it or not.” 

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.”

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#2923597 - 08/28/12 03:11 PM Re: Carrier Strike Group Rushes To Persian Gulf [Re: de novo]
BMan
16 Point


Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 10649
Loc: Middle TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Novocaine
 Originally Posted By: BMan


No, I won't. Do it yourself, but bear in mind that until you do a lot more research than it appears you have, you know very little of the actual story.

Here's a little field trip for you: go find a couple of the books written about the event, and get a far more in-depth understanding than a few conspiracy theory web sites full of half-truths.

Bear in mind that all nations, including our own, have done things in the past that many find wrong. Do I agree with the attack on the Liberty? No. Do I understand why it occurred? Yes; and so do the collectors who were on the Liberty (I have met two of them, both of whom, incidentally, blame the U.S. government and not the Israelis).


Very effective debate strategy:
1. I'm right; however, I'll provide no evidence or sources.
2. You go find a book to prove I'm right, and you're wrong.
That's comical.

You made an assertion and then to back it up, I need to go read a book (title unprovided) to prove you're right. So in review, the US is attacked and suffers nearly 200 casualties and 1. You respect and understand why we were attacked and 2. imply it's our fault anyway.

I've read several books, articles, and conspiracy theory websites going back to the 1980's on this incident. I've read every version of the attack from all sides so, no, more research from my end isn't necessary. There are many more Liberty veterans who dispute your assertion than your two anonymous sources.

Here are two hardly unbiased sites (The ADL and The Jewish Virtual Library) with versions to back up your claims which inexplicably you chose not to provide yourself for those interested in this attack.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty1.html

http://www.adl.org/israel/uss.asp

These findings notwithstanding, the case of the assault on the Liberty has never been closed. If anything, the accusations leveled against Israel have grown sharper with time. In recent years, an impressive number of former American officials have gone on record insisting that the Israeli action was, in fact, deliberate. These include Adm. Thomas H. Moorer, who was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) at the time of the Liberty incident, who has labeled the episode a "cover-up," adding that he "cannot accept the claim by the Israelis that this was a case of mistaken identity."1 Paul C. Warnke, then Under Secretary of the Navy, has written that

I found it hard to believe that it was, in fact, an honest mistake on the part of the Israeli air force units.... I suspect that in the heat of battle they figured that the presence of this American ship was inimical to their interests....

Who said it was a mistake on the part of the Israeli units?

Maybe you need to go back and read your sources again; you are obviously missing a lot.

The reason I won't educate you, is I refuse to babysit other posters. You said you disagreed with me, but you don't even know why the attack took place.

Good day.
_________________________
Rules are for people who lose fights.

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#2923653 - 08/28/12 03:42 PM Re: Carrier Strike Group Rushes To Persian Gulf [Re: BMan]
de novo
10 Point


Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 4032
Loc: Middle TN

Offline
 Originally Posted By: BMan



Who said it was a mistake on the part of the Israeli units?

Maybe you need to go back and read your sources again; you are obviously missing a lot.

The reason I won't educate you, is I refuse to babysit other posters. You said you disagreed with me, but you don't even know why the attack took place.

Good day.



Where did you find the word mistake in my posts? The "accidental" attack is Israel's story.

Quotes from Adm. Thomas H. Moorer, who was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) at the time of the Liberty incident, and Paul C. Warnke, then Under Secretary of the Navy, were saying they didn't buy the Israeli oops excuse. Thanks for the prompt though uninformative reply. Good Day as well.
_________________________
“Reality is what continues to exist whether you believe in it or not.” 

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.”

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#2923673 - 08/28/12 03:56 PM Re: Carrier Strike Group Rushes To Persian Gulf [Re: de novo]
Jugfish
4 Point


Registered: 01/17/11
Posts: 243
Loc: Corbin, KY

Offline
Look at a map of the Persian Gulf region and Israel. Israel cannot attack Iran without our knowledge, consent, approval and cooperation. We control all of the airspace around Iran. The Israelis would have to refuel to make the round trip and we are the only force there that can do that for them. So stop saying that the Israelis will do whatever it takes. They won't because they cannot do it without us. That is just a fact. My son will be there in 3 months as a Surface Warfare Officer on a Destroyer. All of the training they have done for the last several months has been against simulated Iranian threats.
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