#2471001 - 08/07/11 10:45 AM
Re: Tennessee Age Data
[Re: strutandrut]
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catman529
spiderboy
16 Point
Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 11086
Loc: Franklin TN
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Good info. Thanks.
This needs to be a permanent sticky in the serious forum IMO.
Great post!
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A good day in the woods is best finished off with an ice cold Sun Drop.
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#2471108 - 08/07/11 01:03 PM
Re: Tennessee Age Data
[Re: catman529]
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BigSatt
10 Point
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 3510
Loc: Northern Middle Tn.
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Although I definitely agree that Tn's age structure is better than it has ever been in modern times, I'm not so sure that we are comparing apples to apples here.
Let's use Illinois as an example. Every hunter that checks in an antlered deer has to answer several questions about their animal. Two of those questions are: 1. Provide a measurement from the rear edge of the nostril opening to the front corner of the eye. 2. Provide the circumference measurement around the thickest antler beam 25mm above the base (if the brow tine inteferes with this measurement, take the measurement just below the brow tine).
Based on these 2 measurements, the DNR of Illinois places an age estimation on EVERY legal buck taken, which is more than adequate imo. Now, based on the info given for Tn, only 5% of the bucks taken (8795 aged out of 188534 checked in), we are assuming that our age structure compares on average. It very well may be, but it's not a fair comparison imo.
I, for one, do not want anything to do with antler restrictions statewide in Tn. I think that would result in even more "High Grading" than we already have, and would add an unneeded hardship for many. Also, I am not in favor of a 1 buck limit; however, I still stand strong in my opinion that we should entertain the idea of a 2 buck limit in the near future. Thanks for listening.
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#2471126 - 08/07/11 01:16 PM
Re: Tennessee Age Data
[Re: BigSatt]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 17069
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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I, for one, do not want anything to do with antler restrictions statewide in Tn. I think that would result in even more "High Grading" than we already have, and . . . . . . still stand strong in my opinion that we should entertain the idea of a 2 buck limit in the near future.
x 2
Being "ok" without the desire to be better
is the recipe for complacency, which then quickly turns into getting worse rather than getting better.
The situation can be compared to an obese person losing a lot of weight, and being rightfully proud of themselves. But what usually happens once they feel they've accomplished their goal, then become again complacent with their eating habits?
Deer herd health is an ongoing venture.
No question, we have gotten better over the past decade.
But which way are we going now?
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#2471177 - 08/07/11 02:22 PM
Re: Tennessee Age Data
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
12 Point
Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 6359
Loc: Nashville
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But which way are we going now?
Although I would like to see continued improvement in certain areas, from a statewide standpoint, I'd be very comfortable if we stayed where we are at. To think that you can continue to improve across the board is equally as dangerous as complacency because then you risk imposing unnecessary restrictions for insignificant gains. That's when you run the risk of losing hunters.
_________________________
If given the choice between education and regulation, I'll choose education every time.
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#2471899 - 08/08/11 07:06 AM
Re: Tennessee Age Data
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BigCam50
8 Point
Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 2337
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
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I, for one, do not want anything to do with antler restrictions statewide in Tn. I think that would result in even more "High Grading" than we already have, and . . . . . . still stand strong in my opinion that we should entertain the idea of a 2 buck limit in the near future. x 2 Being "ok" without the desire to be better is the recipe for complacency, which then quickly turns into getting worse rather than getting better. The situation can be compared to an obese person losing a lot of weight, and being rightfully proud of themselves. But what usually happens once they feel they've accomplished their goal, then become again complacent with their eating habits? Deer herd health is an ongoing venture. No question, we have gotten better over the past decade. But which way are we going now?
Very good posts Bigsatt and WP
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#2471950 - 08/08/11 08:27 AM
Re: Tennessee Age Data
[Re: BigGameGuy]
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EastTNHunter
8 Point
Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 1257
Loc: Rhea Co., TN
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But which way are we going now? Although I would like to see continued improvement in certain areas, from a statewide standpoint, I'd be very comfortable if we stayed where we are at. To think that you can continue to improve across the board is equally as dangerous as complacency because then you risk imposing unnecessary restrictions for insignificant gains. That's when you run the risk of losing hunters.
I know that this is a difficult balance to maintain, and I applaud your efforts to recognize the full spectrum of hunters in your efforts. I like the balance that we have now, and I believe that we are headed in the right direction still, IMO. I like the three buck limit, although I have never taken, and unless there are extenuating circumstances, will not take, three bucks in a year.
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#2472005 - 08/08/11 09:22 AM
Re: Tennessee Age Data
[Re: strutandrut]
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oldmanelrod
6 Point
Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 537
Loc: TN/AL state line
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"This needs to be a permanent sticky in the serious forum IMO."
I agree with strutandrut.
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#2474386 - 08/09/11 10:53 PM
Re: Tennessee Age Data
[Re: BigGameGuy]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 17069
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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But which way are we going now? To think that you can continue to improve across the board is equally as dangerous as complacency because then you risk imposing unnecessary restrictions for insignificant gains. That's when you run the risk of losing hunters.
While I agree with this statement, what I'm talking about is continually striving to do better, if for no other reason than to help prevent the opposite. Not talking about unnecessary restrictions for insignificant gains.
We know that under the current "hunter success" model, most hunters don't kill even a single deer annually. Want to help retain and attract new hunters? Would adjustments that improve hunter success help?
To what extent it would help is debatable, but does anyone doubt that going from a 3-buck limit to a 2-buck limit would be beneficial in improving the opportunity for a less experienced hunter to kill "a" buck? At the same time, and again it's debatable as to the extinct of the enhancement, but wouldn't this also enhance buck age structure, therefore enhancing the outlook for most hunters in seeing an older buck?
I look forward to the day when ALL hunters can simply shoot the deer of their choice via their time afield being "either-sex" instead of "buck only". Currently, unless additional money is spent to go deer hunting, the basic TN deer hunting opportunity is "buck only", even in Unit L. A slight reduction in the buck limit from 3 to 2 could help facilitate at least 1 female deer being legal to ALL hunters afield (at least in Units L & A). This would be a change with great potential to increase "hunter success" as measured by the number of hunters who kill one or more deer annually, as well as one or more bucks annually, i.e. more opportunity for either.
Not to mention, always knowing that until and unless you've killed that 1st deer, ANY deer would be legal, THAT could be a giant step in SIMPLIFYING the regs. Among the less avid hunters, the complexity of these regs is sometimes a DEmotivater when deciding whether to go hunting in the morning as opposed to doing something else. I have heard people say, "Well I'd have gone if I'd known I could shoot a doe."
By the way, great work on simplifying the "weapons" aspect of the deer seasons in 2010 and then more in 2011. I no longer expect to hear, "I started to go this morning, but didn't know whether it was muzzleloader or regular rifle, so we just slept in."
Had you not been looking for ways to make improvements, we'd still have all that back and forth from archery to muzzleloader to archery to rifle to muzzleloader to archery to rifle. Keep looking for ways to make things better and you'll probably find a few. 
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#2474681 - 08/10/11 08:51 AM
Re: Tennessee Age Data
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
12 Point
Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 6359
Loc: Nashville
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While I agree with this statement, what I'm talking about is continually striving to do better, if for no other reason than to help prevent the opposite.
That is one thing I can promise. What I find that needs most attention within all fields of wildlife is striving for better science. In that arena we will continue to strive to do better. Better data collection, better methods, better analysis, all equates to better management.
Unfortunately in today's market, our agency can not be the sole source of information for all hunters. They are going to pick up and read or watch things on TV that will help form an opinion in their mind of what hunting and management is all about. I'm not going to suger coat anything, some of what is out there is utter garbage. If popular opinion begins to dictate management then the only thing we'll have to combat that mindset is science. It is my hope we continue to live in a society where information (data) and rational thought processes are used to make decisions about our resources. If that is the case then we'll be in pretty good shape.
_________________________
If given the choice between education and regulation, I'll choose education every time.
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