#2404073 - 05/27/11 09:23 PM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: mallardman09]
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utfan1
10 Point
Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 3596
Loc: cleveland,tn
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was the guy who got shot , the man the police were looking for? did he have drugs?
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#2404192 - 05/28/11 07:45 AM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: Wildcat]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16955
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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71 rounds fired in just about seven seconds
And not a single one of them was fired by the homeowner who was killed.
My question is should the police have been breaking into this man's home in the first place?
Let's even assume they had the right house.
Did the stated criminal suspicions justify how the search warrant was delivered?
On another thread, we've discussed a pharmacist who was just sentenced to life in prison for "over-shooting" a robber in his store. By no means am I saying that pharmacist was correct in firing those extra shots, thus killing the robber. Nor am I saying the individual police officers who killed the marine were doing anything other than following their orders. Just saying I'm much more disturbed by the police breaking into this marine's home and killing him, than I am by that pharmacist killing the robber.
I know I'm not going to rob a pharmacist, so I'm not concerned about being shot by the neighborhood pharmacist. On the other hand, if I hear my front door being broken in, my first instinct my be to grab a gun in self-defense.
Based on all I've read, I see at least three issues that need more light shed:
1) Should a search warrant be served so violently (breaking down the door only a few seconds after knocking) on anyone who has no criminal record and is not a major suspect in a violent crime?
2) In the heat of the moment, your're at home asleep or taking a shower, and someone breaks down your front door. What would be your first reaction? Grab a gun? Let's assume you're not engaged in any criminal activities and the police would be the last people you'd expect to break down your door.
3) If this happened, just because the intruders shouted "POLICE", would that mean they were really the police?
After all, it was even stated there had been a recent rash of home invasions where the invaders were disguising themselves as police (in that very neighborhood).
It may have been that this marine was just being cautious in trying to protect his family, upon hearing unexpected people breaking into his house. He certainly had the opportunity to shoot first, yet his rifle's safety was still on "safe". By all appearances, this marine either heard no one identifying themselves as police, or he was questioning whether they really were. After all, how often do the police invade your home by kicking in the door?
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#2404230 - 05/28/11 08:52 AM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: worriedman]
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Unicam
Grumpaw
16 Point
Registered: 12/13/00
Posts: 17441
Loc: Dallas, GA. & Cookeville, TN
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Never release the warrants? How can this be possible, is the Sheriff's Department out there a Public entity or not? Are they above the law so far that they have no obligation to tell the people they work for what led up to this incident?
Scary as he!! isnt it!!!! Its public record, ongoing or not. The proper request should be met with the information. Some serious CYA is going on in this department right now!!
_________________________
"Gun Free Zones are for VICTIMS!"
John 15:13
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#2404349 - 05/28/11 12:32 PM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: Unicam]
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worriedman
6 Point
Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 925
Loc: Bells
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Scary as he!! isnt it!!!! Its public record, ongoing or not. The proper request should be met with the information. Some serious CYA is going on in this department right now!!
Seems to be proof positive of the Police State that we are devolving into in the US.
That CYA mentality seems to be the status quo for Governmental agencies any more, witness the lack of information forthcoming from our own State officials re the change to the budget language issue of this week.
Anymore it appears that the government is able to fend off questions about propriety with impunity. It appears that the tables have turned, we work and pay their salaries, and they get to decide what information is worthy of release, and under what auspices we will live, or die.
Constitutional Rights take a back seat to Police powers, (re the discussion about the incident of the open carry guy and Philadelphia Police) this is all starting to sound very much like any place but the United States.
_________________________
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." Samuel Adams
Life Member NRA, TFA, Tennesseans for Liberty
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#2404448 - 05/28/11 04:16 PM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: worriedman]
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Travis E
6 Point
Registered: 06/16/09
Posts: 782
Loc: TN / From Boone Co. WV
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I'm not going to judge rather the SWAT Officers were justified or not. I simply couldn't tell you because I wasn't there. And I'm not going to go off of news reports due to the FACT that they are normally not even close to factual. One thing I can say is that the agency may not be releasing the information regarding the shooting because if they are like my agency. In a Officer involved shooting you immediately give up your gun and are on leave until the investigation of the shooting is completed. The agency I work for treats every shooting (if someone dies) as a homicide investigation and the Officer is not cleared until they determine if it is a justified shooting. my agency would not hesitate to press charges on any Officer or team of Officers for a wrongful shooting to cover their butts and the Cities butts (not to mention they should if its wrongful). And I agree if someone rather it be a Officer or citizen wrongfully kills someone (homicide) they should be dealt with accordingly.
With that being said I would imagine they are keeping things out of the public (for now) due to the fact this is being treated as a homicide investigation.
But then again I know nothing about how Police Agencies in AZ operate being that I'm in FL and I only know how they are around here. Just my .02
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#2404458 - 05/28/11 04:32 PM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: Travis E]
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Unicam
Grumpaw
16 Point
Registered: 12/13/00
Posts: 17441
Loc: Dallas, GA. & Cookeville, TN
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I'm not going to judge rather the SWAT Officers were justified or not. I simply couldn't tell you because I wasn't there. And I'm not going to go off of news reports due to the FACT that they are normally not even close to factual. One thing I can say is that the agency may not be releasing the information regarding the shooting because if they are like my agency. In a Officer involved shooting you immediately give up your gun and are on leave until the investigation of the shooting is completed. The agency I work for treats every shooting (if someone dies) as a homicide investigation and the Officer is not cleared until they determine if it is a justified shooting. my agency would not hesitate to press charges on any Officer or team of Officers for a wrongful shooting to cover their butts and the Cities butts (not to mention they should if its wrongful). And I agree if someone rather it be a Officer or citizen wrongfully kills someone (homicide) they should be dealt with accordingly.
With that being said I would imagine they are keeping things out of the public (for now) due to the fact this is being treated as a homicide investigation.
But then again I know nothing about how Police Agencies in AZ operate being that I'm in FL and I only know how they are around here. Just my .02
I agree to a point, but facts are facts...would your agency allow a man who had over 60 bullet holes in him to not receive medical aid for over an hour? There are so many other holes in this its rotten to the core. Not saying all agencies are like this, but the percentage that is makes the rest look bad. I have great respect for police officers, but No Knock Warrants are killing perfectly inocent people every day.
_________________________
"Gun Free Zones are for VICTIMS!"
John 15:13
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#2404528 - 05/28/11 07:19 PM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: Unicam]
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Wildcat
Non-Typical
Registered: 06/10/00
Posts: 39082
Loc: Western Ky.
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I'm not going to judge rather the SWAT Officers were justified or not. I simply couldn't tell you because I wasn't there. And I'm not going to go off of news reports due to the FACT that they are normally not even close to factual. One thing I can say is that the agency may not be releasing the information regarding the shooting because if they are like my agency. In a Officer involved shooting you immediately give up your gun and are on leave until the investigation of the shooting is completed. The agency I work for treats every shooting (if someone dies) as a homicide investigation and the Officer is not cleared until they determine if it is a justified shooting. my agency would not hesitate to press charges on any Officer or team of Officers for a wrongful shooting to cover their butts and the Cities butts (not to mention they should if its wrongful). And I agree if someone rather it be a Officer or citizen wrongfully kills someone (homicide) they should be dealt with accordingly.
With that being said I would imagine they are keeping things out of the public (for now) due to the fact this is being treated as a homicide investigation.
But then again I know nothing about how Police Agencies in AZ operate being that I'm in FL and I only know how they are around here. Just my .02 I agree to a point, but facts are facts...would your agency allow a man who had over 60 bullet holes in him to not receive medical aid for over an hour? There are so many other holes in this its rotten to the core. Not saying all agencies are like this, but the percentage that is makes the rest look bad. I have great respect for police officers, but No Knock Warrants are killing perfectly inocent people every day.
Think about that a minute.
That is the first time I've ever heard of ANYONE with over 60 bullet holes in him living an hour. Something is not right about that story.
_________________________
A Government that does not trust its law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms, is itself unworthy of trust..... - James Madison
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#2404557 - 05/28/11 08:38 PM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: Wildcat]
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worriedman
6 Point
Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 925
Loc: Bells
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The coroners report is out, he was hit 22 times out of 71 shots fired from less than 30 ft.
Helmet cam video
I am troubled by the last shot heard, it comes singly, and after the barrage.
Some of the early information released by Dupnik's office has been refuted and taken back. Originally they said Guerena fired at the Officers, but that has been rescinded, the facts are he never disengaged his safety. Then there was the "I have something for you" statement he supposedly made, but that has been taken back as well.
Spokesmen for the SWAT Team made the statement that they came up, lights going and sirens running, but the video proves otherwise, they do not hit the siren till they are ready to kick in the door, and then for less than 8 seconds. You hear someone call for "Lights" just as they turn on the siren.
In the briefing and info release they said the 4 year old son came out of the closet by himself, it has since been found that his mother was with him and they came out together.
The 911 call the wife made has her telling the operator that her husband has been shot, and is bleeding and moaning, they rush her out, and it IS and hour and 14 minutes before EMS is allowed in. The story is, they were waiting to clear the house and make sure there are no other shooters inside, took and hour and 14 minutes?
Nothing illegal was found in the home, no drugs, no cash. Who of us would have fewer weapons than he had, one pistol, two rifles?
If they had all the necessary information, why did they not take him into custody at the end of one of his 12 hour shifts at the mine. Why do the kick in the door thing and risk his family as well?
_________________________
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." Samuel Adams
Life Member NRA, TFA, Tennesseans for Liberty
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#2404833 - 05/29/11 09:31 AM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: worriedman]
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worriedman
6 Point
Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 925
Loc: Bells
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Here is the first release of information by the Pima County Sheriff's Department.
May 5th information release by Pima County
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"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." Samuel Adams
Life Member NRA, TFA, Tennesseans for Liberty
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