#2403851 - 05/27/11 02:58 PM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: mallardman09]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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This is very disturbing to think that any division of law enforcement feels the need for such excessive force in serving a search warrant. Perhaps there's more to this story, but doesn't sound like this involved some dangerous criminal, but rather just a search warrant.
. . . . . . . he had fallen asleep two hours before, only to wake up to chaos in his house. . . . . grabbed a gun to protect himself from what he thought were home invaders.
"We go to the door, we pound on the door. We wait approximately 15 seconds. If no one answers the door, we breach the door with a heavy tool and open the door."
The officer said that when the SWAT team got the door open, they found Guerena crouched in the hall pointing an assault rifle at them.
15 seconds from knocking on the door to coming in shooting?
Ever been sitting on the commode or taking a shower, or maybe just being asleep, and have someone knock on your door?
15 seconds.
Wouldn't most of us grab a gun if we heard someone breaking down our door and coming in?
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#2403852 - 05/27/11 02:59 PM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Wonder if they even had the right house?
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#2403858 - 05/27/11 03:12 PM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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wg24
6 Point
Registered: 04/17/11
Posts: 997
Loc: nashville
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Wonder if they even had the right house?
BINGO! That was my question. I would think if it was the right house, the police would be like well we found 400 kilos of coke under his bed and billions in cash, etc...so he must have been trying to harm us to keep from going to jail.
The failure to mention any results of the search makes me believe either A) he was clean and the search turned up nothing or B) wrong house. I guess there is option C) they dropped the search after the shooting but I doubt it.
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#2403885 - 05/27/11 03:46 PM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: mallardman09]
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Unicam
Grumpaw
16 Point
Registered: 12/13/00
Posts: 17457
Loc: Dallas, GA. & Cookeville, TN
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you point a gun at a cop your going to get shot, doesn't matter who they are. the only real victim is the children now not having their father due to his actions. dude shouldn't have been messing with drugs and illegal stuff, then there would have never been a search warrant, and he wouldn't be dead.
#1 problem of society in general is self accountability. It's always every one elses fault but their own.
Where does it say this young man had drugs? The SWAT and PD are not saying if they found anything...busy building their story...why did the man lay on the floor dying for over an hour before he was allowed medical attetion, gaurantee you the cops would have been attended to by the ambulance waiting around the corner on standby for the vary action they were involved in. This guy was murdered in his own home. The war on drugs is the single biggest rights violation in our country today and has cost taxpayers billions more than has been taken off the street...FACT.
_________________________
"Gun Free Zones are for VICTIMS!"
John 15:13
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#2403887 - 05/27/11 03:47 PM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Unicam
Grumpaw
16 Point
Registered: 12/13/00
Posts: 17457
Loc: Dallas, GA. & Cookeville, TN
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Wonder if they even had the right house?
My bet is no, they did not have the right place...right now the PD and Legal team are fabricating their story...wanna bet!?
_________________________
"Gun Free Zones are for VICTIMS!"
John 15:13
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#2403890 - 05/27/11 03:50 PM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: mallardman09]
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Unicam
Grumpaw
16 Point
Registered: 12/13/00
Posts: 17457
Loc: Dallas, GA. & Cookeville, TN
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Sorry, but if I point a weapon at a cop, who hasn't identified himself, AND is seemingly about to commit a breaking and entering violation into my house, with multiple cohorts even...well, that's my idea of protecting my family too. I know that all the facts are probaby not in, but from what I just typed, I would feel 100% justified in the lethal use of force to protect my own. And I don't do drugs.  your first two sentances are changing the circumstances I expained from my veiw of the story. I'm making the statement that if the guy hadn't been caught up in illegal activities they wouldn't have been there in the first place. The guy also made a statement as he pointed the weapon at the cops, which any person with experience would think he was about to use it. I wasn't there, and the media leaves out and puts certain facts in to "Juice" up their story. Plus it even says in the story they knocked and counted to 15 seconds, which included yelling their identities. I'm not arguing I'm simply trying to explain what I take from the facts of the story.
They never should have been in the house un-announced, we need to take back our country and make the idiots that claim to be Law Smart, poop or get off the pot...No Knock Warrants are illegal!
_________________________
"Gun Free Zones are for VICTIMS!"
John 15:13
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#2403896 - 05/27/11 04:02 PM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: mallardman09]
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BMan
14 Point
Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 8921
Loc: Middle TN
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I'm making the statement that if the guy hadn't been caught up in illegal activities they wouldn't have been there in the first place.
Not one report in any media has reported they found evidence implicating the Marine in any crime. NOT ONE.
There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of cases where the cops raid the wrong house; do a google search. And some of them result in innocent people dying.
_________________________
Rules are for people who lose fights.
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#2404038 - 05/27/11 08:27 PM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: BMan]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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This story just keeps getting more disturbing.
Guess what the police said they were looking for?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html
Some key excerpts from the above link:
. . . . . . . described as an investigation into alleged marijuana trafficking.
The Pima County Sheriff's Department initially claimed Guerena fired his weapon at the SWAT team. They now acknowledge that not only did he not fire, the safety on his gun was still activated when he was killed. Guerena had no prior criminal record, and the police found nothing illegal in his home.
After ushering out his wife and son, the police refused to allow paramedics to access Guerena for more than hour, leaving the young father to bleed to death, alone, in his own home.
The Pima County Sheriff's Office has now changed its story several times over the last few weeks.
. . . . . . . the search warrants and affidavits weren't sealed until four days after the raids were executed . . . . .
If revealing the details of this investigation -- which remember, was initially described by the Sheriff's Department as a marijuana investigation -- could endanger lives, why weren't the warrants and affidavits sealed from the start?
It isn't difficult to understand why some would suspect a cover-up, or at least an attempt to suppress details until the department can come up with a narrative that mitigates the damage.
The raids on the other homes carried out that same morning, all part of the same operation, resulted in no arrests and turned up little if any actual contraband. (When police find illegal substances after these raids -- especially raids that end badly -- they usually quickly release that information.)
According to an advocate for the Guerena family I spoke with this week, the police also mistakenly raided another home near Guerena's the same morning, and have since replaced that home's front door.
Michael Storie, the attorney for the Arizona police union, is apparently handling the smear campaign portion of the strategy. Storie points out on the union's website that under his watch, no union police officer "has ever been convicted on charges relating to on-duty conduct." That may be a boastworthy claim when it comes to Storie's lawyering prowess.
On Friday, Storie told the Arizona Daily Star that Guerena was "linked" to a "home-invasion crew," and that police found rifles, handguns, body armor, and a "portion of a law-enforcement uniform" in Guerena's house. "Everything they think they're going to find in there, they find," Storie said. "Put it together, and when you have drug rip-offs that occasionally happen where people disguise themselves as law enforcement officers, it all adds up."
I asked Chris Scileppi, the attorney representing Guerena's family, about the "portion of a law enforcement uniform" allegation. "They're trying to imply that he was dressing up as a police officer to force his way into private homes," Scileppi says. But when police serve a search warrant they leave behind a receipt what they've taken from the residence. According to Scileppi, the only item taken from Gurena's home that remotely fits that description was a U.S. Border Control cap -- which you can buy from any number of retail outlets, including Amazon.com.
About the guns and body armor Scileppi says, "Is it really that difficult to believe that a former Marine living in Arizona would have guns and body armor in his home? Nothing they found in the house is illegal to own in Arizona." In fact, Storie himself acknowledged in the Daily Star that had the SWAT team entered Guerena's home peacefully, they wouldn't have made an arrest.
And when you "put it together," to borrow his own terminology, Storie's comments thus far lead to a pretty astonishing conclusion: After violently breaking into Guerena's home, the police found exactly the evidence they were looking for -- yet none of that evidence merited an arrest.
At his press conference last week, Storie also defended the SWAT team's refusal to allow paramedics to access Guerena for more than hour.
This is absurd. The entire purpose of using SWAT teams, dynamic entry, and like paramilitary-style police tactics is to subdue dangerous suspects and secure the building within seconds. If it took more than an hour to secure the Guerenas' small home, this particular SWAT team was incompetent.
He emphasized that the raid was "in no way" a "no-knock" operation. Storie is laying groundwork for the argument that Guerena should have known that the men breaking into his home were police.
There are a number of problems here, beginning with the lights, the sirens, and the knocking. If these warrants were, as Storie claims, for suspected dangerous, well-armed members of a home invasion ring, why would they give a violent suspect such ample warning that they're coming? Why wouldn't the police have sought and obtained a no-knock warrant? This is precisely the scenario for which no-knock entry is warranted -- to apprehend suspected dangerous people who may present an immediate threat to police and the public.
This week I also spoke with Ray Epps, a retired Marine sergeant from Mesa, Arizona . . . . . . . After hearing about Guerena's death, Epps drove to Tucson to investigate.
"We spoke with several of the neighbors," Epps says. "And none of them -- none of them -- heard any sirens that morning. Every one of them told us they didn't hear anything, no knocking, no shouting, until the shooting started. They didn't hear anything until the shooting started."
If next-door neighbors didn't hear the sirens or police announcement at the door, it's plausible that Guerena, who was sleeping off the graveyard shift he'd worked the night before, didn't hear them either. Of course, the other possibility here is that the police are lying about the sirens and the announcement.
To buy what Storie is pitching, you would have to believe that Guerena -- the father of two young boys, who was working a night job to save money for a new home, who had no criminal record, who served two tours of duty in Iraq and was honorably discharged -- knowingly took on a team of armored, well-armed police officers, himself armed only with his rifle, and with his wife and young child still in the home. You'd also have to believe that the battle-tested former Marine forgot to turn off his weapon's safety before the shooting began.
The alternate explanation -- and I think the more plausible one -- is that Guerena thought the men breaking into his home were criminals, but held his fire until he was sure. (That's also the mark of someone well-trained in gun safety, and a stark contrast to the SWAT team, which despite never receiving hostile fire, unleashed a barrage of bullets that penetrated not only Jose Guerena but, according to sources I spoke with, also the walls of neighboring homes.)
If you're not actually a criminal and you wake up to the sound of armed men breaking into your home, your first thought isn't likely to be that you're being visited by the police.
The government of Pima County has killed one of its own citizens. This is the most serious, solemn, and severe action a local government can undertake. It demands complete transparency. The Pima County Sheriff's Department and other agencies involved in the raid ought to be doing anything and everything to make themselves accountable. Instead, they've shown arrogance, defiance, and obstinacy . . . . . . . .
Sound familar?
Perhaps we have too much "government".
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#2404050 - 05/27/11 08:39 PM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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worriedman
6 Point
Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 927
Loc: Bells
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Never release the warrants? How can this be possible, is the Sheriff's Department out there a Public entity or not? Are they above the law so far that they have no obligation to tell the people they work for what led up to this incident?
_________________________
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." Samuel Adams
Life Member NRA, TFA, Tennesseans for Liberty
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#2404063 - 05/27/11 08:53 PM
Re: Former Marine killed by SWAT Team
[Re: mallardman09]
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Wildcat
Non-Typical
Registered: 06/10/00
Posts: 39107
Loc: Western Ky.
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71 rounds fired in just about seven seconds
That's LESS than a full mag each from the first 3 SWAT team members in the door.
We've all seen the SWAT raids on TV, we see them on the news, on COPS show, in movies and books and we all KNOW they are going to bust the door down, that part is a given. Also we all KNOW anybody points a gun at a cop durning a raid is going to get shot not by just one cop but the several that are covering the door.
Anybody watch the History Channel or the Military Channel?? Several times a year they show REAL SWAT and MILITARY TEAMS trading for raids. Once the door is busted down SEVERAL team members rush in with their weapons drawn and on ready to fire.
All we know is what the reports say. We will have to wait until after the investigation is done before we learn it all.
_________________________
A Government that does not trust its law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms, is itself unworthy of trust..... - James Madison
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