#2113456 - 10/15/10 04:35 PM
Re: East Tn Rut!
[Re: BSK]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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As stik pointed out, bucks don't control the rut. Bucks are ready and capable of breeding from September through at least March. Does control the rut. Each individual doe only comes into estrus for 24-48 hours once a year (if she successfully conceives--if not she will enter estrus again for 24-48 hours about 28-30 days after her first estrus). 95% of the females in a given location will all come into estrus during a 5-6 week period in fall, with over 50% coming into estrus over a 10-14 day window (the peak of the rut).
Bucks don't control the rut. The females do.
Now exactly when that rut occurs has been driven by Natural Selection to be 200 days previous to when newborn fawn survival will be highest. In most of the U.S., peak fawn survival occurs when fawns are born in early summer, leading to a November or early December rut. But in some locations, peak fawn survival occurs at very different times, leading to a rut 200 days previous that is very different. In some areas, peak fawn survival occurs in late summer, leading to a winter rut. In other areas, peak fawn survival occurs in mid-winter, leading to a summer rut. In areas with no peak best time for fawn survival, such as Central America, breeding and fawning occur year-round.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#2113479 - 10/15/10 05:00 PM
Re: East Tn Rut!
[Re: BSK]
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Living2Hunt
8 Point
Registered: 12/17/07
Posts: 1301
Loc: TN
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Nope, has nothing to do with temperature. Has everything to do with the length of the nights. Each local population of does will have estrus timing genrtically encoded into them as to what length of the nights (as the nights get longer in fall) it takes to trigger estrus.
Now in the South, other factors can have an influence, but the weather is not one of them. The "other factors" all involve herd dynamics and health (sex ratio, buck age structure, doe age structure, acorn production food availability, etc.).
what about the moon bsk? you read all the time that its triggered my the moon? and i have read about the longer nights and shorter day effect it. i think maybe in one of the north america hunter books i received. it also makes sight notes how temps can delay it? ex says that hot weather usually makes for shorter ruts? not sure if its true, but thats what it says. how do you researach when your cusious about something?
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#2113501 - 10/15/10 05:15 PM
Re: East Tn Rut!
[Re: Living2Hunt]
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Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point
Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 16933
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.
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Any chasing seen between now and roughly into the second week of Nov will be wishful thinking on a buck's part. The bucks, especially the younger bucks don't know what to do with their high testosterone levels and start pestering does. For all practical purposes the untrained eye would think the rut has started. Nada. That's not to say that there may actually be a couple of does that enter estrus early somewhere but that would be the extreme exception to the rule. Hot temperatures will not delay the rut but it will be carried on nocturnally until daytime temps drop below 45 or colder.
_________________________
BONE HEAD HUNTER
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#2113956 - 10/15/10 11:42 PM
Re: East Tn Rut!
[Re: SHAGEE]
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redblood
16 Point
Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 10191
Loc: Lewisburg
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Just horseplay
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"I will predator hunt for food "
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#2114155 - 10/16/10 08:22 AM
Re: East Tn Rut!
[Re: Living2Hunt]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Nope, has nothing to do with temperature. Has everything to do with the length of the nights. Each local population of does will have estrus timing genrtically encoded into them as to what length of the nights (as the nights get longer in fall) it takes to trigger estrus.
Now in the South, other factors can have an influence, but the weather is not one of them. The "other factors" all involve herd dynamics and health (sex ratio, buck age structure, doe age structure, acorn production food availability, etc.). what about the moon bsk? you read all the time that its triggered my the moon? and i have read about the longer nights and shorter day effect it. i think maybe in one of the north america hunter books i received. it also makes sight notes how temps can delay it? ex says that hot weather usually makes for shorter ruts? not sure if its true, but thats what it says. how do you researach when your cusious about something?
The rut driven by full moon patterns is a theory championed by Charlie Alsheimer, an outdoor writer and photographer. However, all of his data comes from watching a couple of deer inside a pen in NY State. A few years back, many of the top deer reseachers pooled all of their fetal conception date data (to the tune of thousands of fetal conception dates) and proved unequivocally that in any given location, the average peak date of breeding does not vary by more than a couple of days from year to year. In essence, peak breeding is driven by calendar date, not changing moon conditions. If the full moon drove breeding, conception dates would shift around by as much as 29 days from year to year (the variability of the Hunters' Full Moon date from year to year). In addition, if the full moon dates drove breeding, in a given year, all deer around the country would breed at the same time. Yet the hard data shows peak breeding varies by many months across the country, with each location having its own unique date, not associated with full moon cycle dates.
Now without question, moon conditions affect daylight deer activity, making breeding activity more visible on some days than others, but it is not driving the actual breeding process. It is just influencing how much of on-going breeding occurs in daylight, where hunters can see it.
Weather conditions, such as temperature, play the same role. They do not influence the dates of breeding, just how much of the breeding occurs in daylight.
The fact that moon and weather conditions effect how much of on-going breeding activity occurs when hunters can see it often fools hunters into thinking peak breeding is occurring on different dates than it really is. Sudden changes in moon or weather conditions from good to bad or bad to good, is why hunters often think the rut is "turning on" or "turning off" at different times during the breeding process.
I was able to document this process of hunters being fooled by weather/moon conditions during an interesting study conducted in GA. We were trying to thin an over-populated herd on a large private property (15,000+ acres). Trained biologists/shooters wer used to shoot as many does as possible throughout and after the hunting season. Through this process we were able to collect a large number of fetal conception dates each year--enough to produce a very good picture of the actual breeding dates. In addition, before releasing the actual breeding date data, I would ask the shooters when they saw the most rutting activity that year. Interestingly, all of the shooters would agree on the peak dates of rutting activity for a given year, but from year to year those "best dates" would vary by as much as three weeks. However, actual breeding was occurring on the same dates every year, and when the hunters were reporting the best activity often missed the real peak of breeding by as much as two weeks. The hunters were being fooled by sudden "good" turns in the weather that were causing a surge in daylight rutting activity, even if it was not really the peak of breeding.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#2114180 - 10/16/10 08:56 AM
Re: East Tn Rut!
[Re: BSK]
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Arse
4 Point
Registered: 08/19/08
Posts: 145
Loc: East (of) TN
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Now exactly when that rut occurs has been driven by Natural Selection to be 200 days previous to when newborn fawn survival will be highest.
In essence, peak breeding is driven by calendar date,
The rut = ^^^^^what he said. Nothing more.
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#2114211 - 10/16/10 09:31 AM
Re: East Tn Rut!
[Re: Arse]
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String Music
8 Point
Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 1428
Loc: Knoxville
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Hey BSK, what role does acorn production play in early scrapes? Will there be more buck activity during the rut with a bumper acorn crop because the deer are so spread out?
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#2115106 - 10/16/10 10:07 PM
Re: East Tn Rut!
[Re: String Music]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Hey BSK, what role does acorn production play in early scrapes? Will there be more buck activity during the rut with a bumper acorn crop because the deer are so spread out?
One of the things that can affect breeding timing is doe health. Healthy does will enter estrus before unhealthy members of the same social group (same female genetic lineage and probably same genetic estrus timing).
In acorn-driven deer herds (herds that have few other food sources than acorns in fall), deer are healthier and have excess energy to burn during a bumper acorn crop. Studies of acorn-driven herds have shown increased sign-making by bucks (rubs and scrapes) and a slightly earlier estrus timing of does in a bumper acorn crop, again, this is probably driven by the increased health and excess energy to burn in a good acorn year.
In my rub studies, I found rub densities were much higher in good acorn years than in acorn failure years.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#2115132 - 10/16/10 10:25 PM
Re: East Tn Rut!
[Re: BSK]
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cowdoc
4 Point
Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Middle Tn
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Sounds like BSK is all over this topic, deer are similar to goats being that they are short day breeders. The decrease in light or increase in darkness has an affect on the melatonin production that then causes the ovaries to become productive. On the other side is horses are long day breeders.
I can't remeber if melatonin goes up or down in deer to cause them to come in to estrous but if it was up just wonder if you could affect it by giving those melatonin tablets.
Never really thought about it until typing this.
My vacation is in two weeks so if i start feeding them know maybe peak breeding season will be then. lol
Maybe i should bottle that and start selling it.
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