#2070993 - 09/14/10 09:27 PM
Small tree rubs from old bucks
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Robbhorn
6 Point
Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 543
Loc: Maury County
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Heard from a buddy (with a nice collection of racks) that he's been taught that alot of the rubs were seeing right now on 1-2" cedars is actually more likely your older larger bucks and that the big rubs we see here in a few more weeks are actually smaller younger bucks who hold there felt longer... Any real answers or theories?
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#2071017 - 09/14/10 09:40 PM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Robbhorn]
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Setterman
8 Point
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1783
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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I don't know that there is any definitive answers on rub size and how it might correlate to deer age. My personal opinion is that testosterone levels rise differently in different deer, and that age of a deer plays a smaller role then the individual deer and their hormones.
It is also referred to as velvet, and not felt, just an FYI.
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#2071028 - 09/14/10 09:43 PM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Setterman]
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Robbhorn
6 Point
Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 543
Loc: Maury County
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Makes sense...
FYI I've always called it felt... Been in the roofing industry so long felt is second nature. Sorry
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#2071030 - 09/14/10 09:44 PM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Robbhorn]
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whistlinwingman
8 Point
Registered: 07/11/05
Posts: 1826
Loc: Morristown
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Heard from a buddy (with a nice collection of racks) that he's been taught that alot of the rubs were seeing right now on 1-2" cedars is actually more likely your older larger bucks and that the big rubs we see here in a few more weeks are actually smaller younger bucks who hold there felt longer... Any real answers or theories?
I can't imagine this theory to ever be proven that it is correct.
_________________________
"I'm a great believer in luck, I find the harder I work the more I have it" -Thomas Jefferson
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#2071139 - 09/14/10 10:40 PM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Robbhorn]
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turkinator
4 Point
Registered: 03/05/09
Posts: 197
Loc: Bolivar, TN
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I have watched and caught on cameras, big deer rubbing small diameter and big diameter trees. The same with smaller deer. Year b4 last I found a cedar as big as the top of my leg that was torn up. I just knew I had a hoss! Put up a camera and checked it a week later, 14"-15" 70-80" buck :(----The only thing I really get excited about now is height of the rub or an actual sighting or trail cam picture
Not to hijack but I will add one more thing that trail cams have enlightened me too. ----Every year I monitor scrapes. I have yet to hang a camera and get pics of just 1 buck. Have had as many as 11 different bucks working the same scrape---from a spike to a 120" deer
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#2071159 - 09/14/10 10:52 PM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: turkinator]
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Pursuit Hunter
8 Point
Registered: 10/01/08
Posts: 2084
Loc: Way out there
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My theory is that your buddy is misinformed.
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#2071201 - 09/14/10 11:24 PM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Pursuit Hunter]
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Good time Charlie
TnDeer Old Timer
12 Point
Registered: 10/08/99
Posts: 6568
Loc: Tazewell
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It does seem that the older deer lose velvet sooner
But as we have learned this week ,It can be gone in just a few hours without any rubbing
_________________________
Live every day as if it were your last
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#2071233 - 09/15/10 01:17 AM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Pursuit Hunter]
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bowriter
Non-Typical
Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 40337
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA
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My theory is that your buddy is misinformed.
Not neccesarily. Quite often that may be the case, not often, but it does happen that way sometimes.
_________________________
Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.
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#2071234 - 09/15/10 01:18 AM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Good time Charlie]
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bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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It does seem that the older deer lose velvet sooner
But as we have learned this week ,It can be gone in just a few hours without any rubbing
Most of the velvet is removed by the back feet. Then they eat it.
_________________________
Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.
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#2071273 - 09/15/10 06:12 AM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: bowriter]
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Pursuit Hunter
8 Point
Registered: 10/01/08
Posts: 2084
Loc: Way out there
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My theory is that your buddy is misinformed. Not neccesarily. Quite often that may be the case, not often, but it does happen that way sometimes.
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#2071319 - 09/15/10 06:40 AM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Pursuit Hunter]
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DOC1187
16 Point
Registered: 06/14/08
Posts: 10387
Loc: east tn
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hard to say
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#2071351 - 09/15/10 06:58 AM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Robbhorn]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN
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Heard from a buddy (with a nice collection of racks) that he's been taught that alot of the rubs were seeing right now on 1-2" cedars is actually more likely your older larger bucks and that the big rubs we see here in a few more weeks are actually smaller younger bucks who hold there felt longer... Any real answers or theories?
Incorrect theory. Although older bucks make all sizes of rubs--large and small--signpost rubs made in October and November are initiated by older bucks. Now once created, these signpost rubs are used/checked/reworked by all ages of bucks (and does), but signpost rubs are initiated by older bucks. Signpost rubs are communal signposts. They are inteded to be visited by all deer, as they carry important social chemicals.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#2071434 - 09/15/10 08:11 AM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: BSK]
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Robbhorn
6 Point
Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 543
Loc: Maury County
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So BSK... In short, these rubs would in fact be started by older bucks, but by the time we get into hunting season it could be a spike I see near it? Am I understanding correctly?
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#2071450 - 09/15/10 08:24 AM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Robbhorn]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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So BSK... In short, these rubs would in fact be started by older bucks, but by the time we get into hunting season it could be a spike I see near it? Am I understanding correctly?
It is true that the first rubs of the season--even small ones--are usually created by older bucks. However, small rubs seen in october and later can be created by any age buck.
But the large signpost rubs often seen on cedar trees in late October into November are created by older bucks. These large-diameter tree rubs are "signpost rubs," which are intended as "communal pheramone wicks." They hold the pheramones from the buck's forehead gland. These rubs will be smelled, licked and reworked by every buck in the area, including young bucks. Does will also investigate these rubs (as intended). The pheramones placed on these rubs can play a role in all sorts of social dynamics. They can actually alter the hormonal output of the deer (both male and female) that come in contact with them.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#2071458 - 09/15/10 08:30 AM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: bowriter]
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Otterman
8 Point
Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 1606
Loc: Mid. TN
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It does seem that the older deer lose velvet sooner
But as we have learned this week ,It can be gone in just a few hours without any rubbing Most of the velvet is removed by the back feet. Then they eat it.
_________________________
Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;
Genesis 27:3 KJV
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#2071593 - 09/15/10 09:49 AM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Otterman]
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Bottom Hunter
16 Point
Registered: 12/29/06
Posts: 15554
Loc: Hatchie Bottoms
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can these sign posts be warnings to other bucks, sort of a territorial thing as well?
_________________________
There are some people who always seem angry and continuously look for conflict.
Walk away; the battle they are fighting is not with you, but with themselves.
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#2071617 - 09/15/10 10:00 AM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Bottom Hunter]
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Winchester
Non-Typical
Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 25339
Loc: TN
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Signpost rubs can mean a plethora of things, and most all deer in an area will contact them. Many times after a rub is established, visits from other deer may not even have rubbing of the antlers involved, they will rub the gland in their forehead and even lick the rub many times without touching an antler to it. Other times bucks of all ages and sizes may rework rubs as they come to them. I've heard some on here say they saw a button buck trying to work a rub, when he was just depositing scent. I do agree that large bucks will make rubs of all sizes, but smaller bucks wont tackle a large tree that hasnt already been initiated before them.
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#2071674 - 09/15/10 10:28 AM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Winchester]
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BoneHead1
4 Point
Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 199
Loc: East tn
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i just like seeing the huge rubs...then i don't gotta wonder who made it.
I love finding those big cedar trees like BSK said.Been hit year after year.Would like to see all the bucks that have hit this one tree i know of..mmmmmm
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#2071744 - 09/15/10 11:24 AM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: BoneHead1]
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Robbhorn
6 Point
Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 543
Loc: Maury County
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Thanks for the input and education guys
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#2071967 - 09/15/10 02:40 PM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Winchester]
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Pursuit Hunter
8 Point
Registered: 10/01/08
Posts: 2084
Loc: Way out there
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Signpost rubs can mean a plethora of things, and most all deer in an area will contact them. Many times after a rub is established, visits from other deer may not even have rubbing of the antlers involved, they will rub the gland in their forehead and even lick the rub many times without touching an antler to it. Other times bucks of all ages and sizes may rework rubs as they come to them. I've heard some on here say they saw a button buck trying to work a rub, when he was just depositing scent. I do agree that large bucks will make rubs of all sizes, but smaller bucks wont tackle a large tree that hasnt already been initiated before them.
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#2072576 - 09/15/10 09:13 PM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Pursuit Hunter]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24708
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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And remember,most ,if not all of this,is done at NIGHT! sux dont it?
_________________________
The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!
You wont know,if you dont go!
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#2072956 - 09/16/10 08:27 AM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Bottom Hunter]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59670
Loc: Nashville, TN
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can these sign posts be warnings to other bucks, sort of a territorial thing as well?
Outside of does during the fawning season, deer are not territorial. They have a complex dominance hierarchy instead. Many bucks can happily inhabit the same area as long as each buck knows his place on the dominance ladder and shows submissiveness to bucks higher on the dominance ladder when they encounter each other.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#2072960 - 09/16/10 08:30 AM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: BoneHead1]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59670
Loc: Nashville, TN
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i just like seeing the huge rubs...then i don't gotta wonder who made it.
I love finding those big cedar trees like BSK said.Been hit year after year.Would like to see all the bucks that have hit this one tree i know of..mmmmmm
In one of the first major studies on signpost rubbing behavior, my mentor used trail-cams to photograph deer interacting with long-established signpost rubs. He caught pictures of as many as 14 different MATURE bucks working the same signpost rub in a single season.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#2072961 - 09/16/10 08:31 AM
Re: Small tree rubs from old bucks
[Re: Football Hunter]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59670
Loc: Nashville, TN
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And remember,most ,if not all of this,is done at NIGHT! sux dont it?
In that research project mentioned above, 95% of buck interactions with signpost rubs occurred at night.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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