#2028263 - 08/12/10 08:21 PM
spikes
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rtp
4 Point
Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 316
Loc: Woodsboro, Texas
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What is the feeling on spikes over here in Tenn? Also, are there any antler restrictions in place?
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#2028286 - 08/12/10 08:36 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: rtp]
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tndrbstr
16 Point
Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 12157
Loc: knox co tn
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I don't care what anyone kills as long as its legal and thier happy with it...
If they are over three inches they are considered an antlered deer and will count towards you buck tag...less than three inches they are considered antlerless...
some WMA's have antler restrictions in place...but no restrictions are not in place as a state wide regulation...
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#2028302 - 08/12/10 08:47 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: tndrbstr]
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rtp
4 Point
Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 316
Loc: Woodsboro, Texas
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The spike debate rages over here in Texas. Any hardened antler makes a deer a buck. So if he has hardened 1/2" points he goes on the buck tag. How many bucks can a person take in a year in Tenn?
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#2028311 - 08/12/10 08:51 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: rtp]
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birddog
12 Point
Registered: 02/21/02
Posts: 6073
Loc: Seymour, TN
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you dont realize how big a can worms you just opened 
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#2028317 - 08/12/10 08:52 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: rtp]
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tndrbstr
16 Point
Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 12157
Loc: knox co tn
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3 bucks state wide...there are ways to kill bonus bucks (selected areas or hunts) that don't count towards the statewide limit...
I would like to see any deer with a nut sack count towards the buck bag limit...probably be alot not checked out or left to rot tho....thats the only down side...
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#2028322 - 08/12/10 08:55 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: birddog]
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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I was watching one of those hunting shows late last night and a guy in Texas pointed at a big rack on the wall... He went on to explain that the deer was killed at 4 yrs old but was a spike when that deer sported its first antlers... I guess he was pointing out to the viewers that spike can grow up to be nice bucks.... I like the regs. in TN.... 3 inch rule... My eyes aren't what they used to be...
Edited by gator-n-buck (08/12/10 08:57 PM)
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#2028351 - 08/12/10 09:11 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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rtp
4 Point
Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 316
Loc: Woodsboro, Texas
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Yeah, some of the latest studies done in Texas have shown in a low fence free range environment that the spikes catch up to the forked brothers by the age of 4. The avg buck in south Texas will score 131 at age 4. To me that's a pretty nice deer in most people's book so I dont believe in shooting them. I have told anyone that hunts on my place if they shoot a spike that is 2.5 years old or older I will give them $100 bill. It hasnt happened yet. Now in a high fence situation it's a whole different story.
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#2028387 - 08/12/10 09:28 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: rtp]
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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Yeah, some of the latest studies done in Texas have shown in a low fence free range environment that the spikes catch up to the forked brothers by the age of 4. The avg buck in south Texas will score 131 at age 4. To me that's a pretty nice deer in most people's book so I dont believe in shooting them. I have told anyone that hunts on my place if they shoot a spike that is 2.5 years old or older I will give them $100 bill. It hasnt happened yet. Now in a high fence situation it's a whole different story.
I was wondering is it a little tuff to find good public land in TX... I have heard a lot of guys in TN that wish TN had the same bucks/antlers that other states have... The one thing they don't consider is TN has a lot of good public land you can hunt... Never hunted in TX, so can you give a little input...
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#2028468 - 08/12/10 10:39 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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rtp
4 Point
Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 316
Loc: Woodsboro, Texas
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Yeah, some of the latest studies done in Texas have shown in a low fence free range environment that the spikes catch up to the forked brothers by the age of 4. The avg buck in south Texas will score 131 at age 4. To me that's a pretty nice deer in most people's book so I dont believe in shooting them. I have told anyone that hunts on my place if they shoot a spike that is 2.5 years old or older I will give them $100 bill. It hasnt happened yet. Now in a high fence situation it's a whole different story. I was wondering is it a little tuff to find good public land in TX... I have heard a lot of guys in TN that wish TN had the same bucks/antlers that other states have... The one thing they don't consider is TN has a lot of good public land you can hunt... Never hunted in TX, so can you give a little input...
There is no such thing as good public land hunting in Texas. 96% of the land in Texas is owned privately. Occasionally someone will take a good deer one of the public lands but not very often. Basically anyone hunting there shoots everything and anything that is legal. There are some draw hunts on different WMAs that can be promising if you get drawn but the odds of that happening are long. Hope that helps.
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#2028470 - 08/12/10 10:41 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: RAFI]
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rtp
4 Point
Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 316
Loc: Woodsboro, Texas
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What is the feeling on spikes over here in Tenn? Also, are there any antler restrictions in place? still think texas is behind the times with shooting spikes.its been proven thet can become big deer.one wma here has a a 9 point rule but also has a spike hunt.go figure 
Not sure what you mean by "Texas is behind the times with shooting spikes"? Spikes can legally be taken in every county of the state. If not, it is nearly every county. It is simply up to each individual or club whether they do it or not.
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#2028482 - 08/12/10 10:55 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: rtp]
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RAFI
10 Point
Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 2552
Loc: Tn
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What is the feeling on spikes over here in Tenn? Also, are there any antler restrictions in place? still think texas is behind the times with shooting spikes.its been proven thet can become big deer.one wma here has a a 9 point rule but also has a spike hunt.go figure Not sure what you mean by "Texas is behind the times with shooting spikes"? Spikes can legally be taken in every county of the state. If not, it is nearly every county. It is simply up to each individual or club whether they do it or not.
meant they seem to be holding on to shooting spikes thinking they need to be taken out to help old habits are hard to break
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#2028490 - 08/12/10 11:03 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: RAFI]
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rtp
4 Point
Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 316
Loc: Woodsboro, Texas
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Yep, it's not like it used to be were everyone wanted to kill every spike. Right now I would say less than 50% advocate shooting spikes. But the debate goes on and on and on.
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#2028512 - 08/12/10 11:37 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: rtp]
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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Yeah, some of the latest studies done in Texas have shown in a low fence free range environment that the spikes catch up to the forked brothers by the age of 4. The avg buck in south Texas will score 131 at age 4. To me that's a pretty nice deer in most people's book so I dont believe in shooting them. I have told anyone that hunts on my place if they shoot a spike that is 2.5 years old or older I will give them $100 bill. It hasnt happened yet. Now in a high fence situation it's a whole different story. I was wondering is it a little tuff to find good public land in TX... I have heard a lot of guys in TN that wish TN had the same bucks/antlers that other states have... The one thing they don't consider is TN has a lot of good public land you can hunt... Never hunted in TX, so can you give a little input... There is no such thing as good public land hunting in Texas. 96% of the land in Texas is owned privately. Occasionally someone will take a good deer one of the public lands but not very often. Basically anyone hunting there shoots everything and anything that is legal. There are some draw hunts on different WMAs that can be promising if you get drawn but the odds of that happening are long. Hope that helps.
That's pretty much what I have heard.... Some of these guys don't know how good we have it here.... Just some of the problems with states that produce big antler bucks.... Gets a little hard to find land to hunt...
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#2028748 - 08/13/10 08:20 AM
Re: spikes
[Re: rtp]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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The avg buck in south Texas will score 131 at age 4.
Any idea where that data came from? The King and Faith Ranch studies put the number lower than that (mid 120s).
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#2028810 - 08/13/10 09:06 AM
Re: spikes
[Re: rtp]
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Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
12 Point
Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 7183
Loc: Atoka, TN
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The avg buck in south Texas will score 131 at age 4.
Is this the average score for 4.5s that are HARVESTED BY HUNTERS or for ALL 4.5s roaming the land? The reason I ask is we hunters tend to target the highest scoring animals in each age group when hunting, which would send a false impression that the harvested "average" is the true average of all roaming 4.5s, when truly it is not.
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#2028949 - 08/13/10 10:41 AM
Re: spikes
[Re: Andy S.]
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rtp
4 Point
Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 316
Loc: Woodsboro, Texas
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No it is not the deer killed, it is just the avg. mature deer in south Texas. There have been numerous studies done where random deer are captured, have data taken from them, including age and score of rack, then they are immediately released. I participated as a part of a ground crew on two of these ventures. It was really cool.
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#2028960 - 08/13/10 10:50 AM
Re: spikes
[Re: BSK]
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rtp
4 Point
Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 316
Loc: Woodsboro, Texas
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The avg buck in south Texas will score 131 at age 4. Any idea where that data came from? The King and Faith Ranch studies put the number lower than that (mid 120s).
The study I was referring to was conducted by Mickey Hilleckson who at the time was the biologist on the King ranch. It was conducted on a number of ranches across south Texas, including the King and Callaghan ranch. I do not know what names of the other ranches were but I believe there were 5 total. I did not see the actual report but was told this by the biologist on the Callaghan ranch who worked closely with Mickey on this study. This was just one aspect of the study. Can you direct me to the studies you are referring to, because if Im wrong I certainly want to know. I know on my ranch the mature 8 points avg in the 120's.
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#2029032 - 08/13/10 11:36 AM
Re: spikes
[Re: rtp]
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Winchester
Non-Typical
Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 25233
Loc: TN
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A spike is simply a yearling buck in most cases. Given a couple more years and he can be as big as any other buck that age!
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#2029248 - 08/13/10 02:27 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: Winchester]
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rtp
4 Point
Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 316
Loc: Woodsboro, Texas
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Andy, thanks for the slide. Looks like I had the score right and the age wrong. Im glad you found it because it has been driving me crazy. I have been doing all kinds of googling and could not come up with it. I stand corrected.
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#2029895 - 08/14/10 09:02 AM
Re: spikes
[Re: rtp]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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The study I was referring to was conducted by Mickey Hilleckson who at the time was the biologist on the King ranch. It was conducted on a number of ranches across south Texas, including the King and Callaghan ranch.
Yes, I got the data directly from Mickey. 4 1/2s averaged 123 at the King Ranch and 127 at the Faith Ranch.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#2029897 - 08/14/10 09:03 AM
Re: spikes
[Re: BSK]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
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If anyone wants to see it, I have the Faith Ranch data. Interestingly, at the Faith Ranch, gross scores DECLINED from 5 1/2 to 6 1/2.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#2030034 - 08/14/10 11:09 AM
Re: spikes
[Re: BSK]
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rtp
4 Point
Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 316
Loc: Woodsboro, Texas
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BSK, I would like to see it. Do you have a link? On my personal ranch, as well as any I suppose, there are a lot of things to consider in letting a deer go past 5.5 yrs. Like what kind of rain has there been in the current year, mortality rates in mature bucks, what if there is a drought next year, etc. I have let numerous large bucks walk during a season only to never see them again. I always wonder did they die in the offseason, did they just move over to a neighbor or what.
I know when I was hunting the Callaghan Ranch(90,000 acre low fence) back in the early 2000s they where part of these studies and produced a book about 2.5 inches thick each year about the data collected not only from the live deer captures but from the deer harvested. At that time they were seeing their bucks producing their best horns at either 6.5 or 7.5 yrs. Some of the pastures had been doing a good job protein feeding many years before though.
It makes it a fun game and as soon as someone thinks they have it figured out a new study comes out to tell us otherwise. At some point all this "managing" can take the fun out of it. So, I say do the best you can but not at the expense of taking the fun out it. I know for several years I had gotten so serious about this stuff I stopped having fun and probably kept others from having as much fun as they should have. I guess like all things it is good in moderation but can be bad in you go to the extremes in either direction. Dang us guys from Texas can ramble. Yall have fun now!
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#2030110 - 08/14/10 12:23 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: BSK]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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On Andy S.'s graph of Mickey's data, look at the RANGE of gross scores of bucks by age, especially those 3 1/2 and older. And these ranges were developed from age-classes represented by only 30-60 animals. Yet even with that small of a group, ranges per age (smallest measured to largest measured) were often 60-80 gross inches for a single age-class.
The Mississippi harvest buck gross scores by age data--that included over 10,000 harvested bucks--displayed gross score RANGES per age-class of well over 100 gross inches (for bucks 3 1/2+).
So whenever anyone tells you most bucks of a certain age in a given location go X to Y score with very few below X, and that "X to Y" range is only 10 to 20 inches, they are either full of it, or there is something seriously wrong with how they are collecting their data.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#2030300 - 08/14/10 03:08 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: BSK]
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Andy S.
TnDeer Old Timer
12 Point
Registered: 07/26/99
Posts: 7183
Loc: Atoka, TN
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So whenever anyone tells you most bucks of a certain age in a given location go X to Y score with very few below X, and that "X to Y" range is only 10 to 20 inches, they are either full of it, or there is something seriously wrong with how they are collecting their data.
Exactly. I love it when people tell me "most deer on my property/ranch/lease score X at 3.5 or 4.5 etc..."
When I hear this, I know right then they either do not know what they are talking about or they are full of shat. 
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#2030367 - 08/14/10 03:52 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: Andy S.]
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rtp
4 Point
Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 316
Loc: Woodsboro, Texas
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So whenever anyone tells you most bucks of a certain age in a given location go X to Y score with very few below X, and that "X to Y" range is only 10 to 20 inches, they are either full of it, or there is something seriously wrong with how they are collecting their data. Exactly. I love it when people tell me "most deer on my property/ranch/lease score X at 3.5 or 4.5 etc..." When I hear this, I know right then they either do not know what they are talking about or they are full of shat.
Im not sure what yall are saying here. Im a slow learner, so what do you mean? Are you referring to something I said?
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#2030606 - 08/14/10 08:11 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24550
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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Yeah, some of the latest studies done in Texas have shown in a low fence free range environment that the spikes catch up to the forked brothers by the age of 4. The avg buck in south Texas will score 131 at age 4. To me that's a pretty nice deer in most people's book so I dont believe in shooting them. I have told anyone that hunts on my place if they shoot a spike that is 2.5 years old or older I will give them $100 bill. It hasnt happened yet. Now in a high fence situation it's a whole different story. I was wondering is it a little tuff to find good public land in TX... I have heard a lot of guys in TN that wish TN had the same bucks/antlers that other states have... The one thing they don't consider is TN has a lot of good public land you can hunt... Never hunted in TX, so can you give a little input...
Edited by Football Hunter (08/14/10 08:12 PM)
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#2030612 - 08/14/10 08:15 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: BSK]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24550
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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I guarantee you if I had data for bucks from the Nashville Basin, the average scores would top South TX. But, as some will tell you, we don't grow good bucks in TN.
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#2030630 - 08/14/10 08:29 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: Football Hunter]
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102
10 Point
Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 3650
Loc: Tennessee
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You are kidding right football hunter?
Can you imagine the difference between the size of the land as well as access to them? Iwould imagine sheer kill numbers alone would do it. Not numbers of B/C bucks killed, JUST numbers of bucks killed.
102
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#2030635 - 08/14/10 08:32 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: 102]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24550
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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You are kidding right football hunter?
Can you imagine the difference between the size of the land as well as access to them? Iwould imagine sheer kill numbers alone would do it. Not numbers of B/C bucks killed, JUST numbers of bucks killed.
102
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#2030638 - 08/14/10 08:34 PM
Re: spikes
[Re: Football Hunter]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24550
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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Recently,I looked on the Tn deer registry,most were not from Na Basin,although I understand there are some good ones there,but to Rival STexas,show me.
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#2031141 - 08/15/10 10:45 AM
Re: spikes
[Re: rtp]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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So whenever anyone tells you most bucks of a certain age in a given location go X to Y score with very few below X, and that "X to Y" range is only 10 to 20 inches, they are either full of it, or there is something seriously wrong with how they are collecting their data. Exactly. I love it when people tell me "most deer on my property/ranch/lease score X at 3.5 or 4.5 etc..." When I hear this, I know right then they either do not know what they are talking about or they are full of shat. Im not sure what yall are saying here. Im a slow learner, so what do you mean? Are you referring to something I said?
No, not something you said at all. I was pointing out that too many hunters judge age by antler size, either conciously or subconciously. They know the antler score they expect from a certain age-class, so when they see that size antlers, that automatically assign the buck the age they expect will grow that size antlers. Anters size should be given very little consideration when field-judging age.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#2031143 - 08/15/10 10:47 AM
Re: spikes
[Re: Football Hunter]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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I guarantee you if I had data for bucks from the Nashville Basin, the average scores would top South TX. But, as some will tell you, we don't grow good bucks in TN. Gotta call you on that,so why the HUGE difference in B&C entries,not close HUGE!?
The shear number of mature bucks being produced in South TX high-fences. It is not uncommon to see age structures with 30+% mature bucks inside a high-fence. With so many more mature bucks, you are far more likely to produce the top-end of the bell-curve.
In addition, many of the best big buck areas of the Nashville Basin are not open to gun hunting. The best monster buck areas of the Nashville Basin are suburban areas. Suburbanites may allow some limited archery hunting, but will not allow gun hunting.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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