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#2011437 - 07/29/10 09:56 PM shooting Doe??
wobblegobble
4 Point


Registered: 02/08/10
Posts: 399
Loc: tn

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I know a lot of folks say shooting alot of doe will make the rut more intense. My question or statement is this: I've shot several doe on my land and I dont see any change in the rut or big buck sightings(plus the neighbors shoot EVERY doe they see),But my father-in-law and his neighbors ,which own together i think 1,200 acres, never shoot anything but deer with atleast 8pts and they have many many deer! They kill atleast 2 great bucks a piece each year and my son's 1st deer was a 9pt from there last year! Is this a better practice?
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#2011451 - 07/29/10 10:14 PM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: wobblegobble]
Chaneylake
Brownsville Mafia
16 Point


Registered: 12/18/07
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you can manage for quanity or quality, its just a matter of what a person wants
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#2011604 - 07/30/10 08:10 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: Chaneylake]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Changing the social dynamics of a local deer population is matter of what is being killed over a fairly wide area. What deer you see on your property are also travelling across many other properties, where they are subject to different harvest strategies.

Your father-in-law is probably pretty lucky that someone nearby is shooting does or that population would get too high, greatly reducing body and antler growth.
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#2011624 - 07/30/10 08:32 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: wobblegobble]
muddyboots
12 Point


Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 5921
Loc: savannah, tn., usa

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 Originally Posted By: wobblegobble
I know a lot of folks say shooting alot of doe will make the rut more intense. My question or statement is this: I've shot several doe on my land and I dont see any change in the rut or big buck sightings(plus the neighbors shoot EVERY doe they see),But my father-in-law and his neighbors ,which own together i think 1,200 acres, never shoot anything but deer with atleast 8pts and they have many many deer! They kill atleast 2 great bucks a piece each year and my son's 1st deer was a 9pt from there last year! Is this a better practice?


Proof is in the pudding. I have one lease where they hammer does. Hunting there is tough although many pics of big big bucks. My other lease we only shoot does woth a bow and hunting is great with several big bucks killed evry year. I see it all the time. IMO shooting does with firearms is a mistake.
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#2011648 - 07/30/10 08:50 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: muddyboots]
WRbowhunter
8 Point


Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1464
Loc: collierville,tn

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Certainly more qualified people on here than Me but I would think a more balanced Doe to Buck ratio makes a healthy deer population. Just shooting all your does leaving only a couple will not make a more intense rut. The bucks would just move on to the next property for the does. Shooting does is a good thing. They taste good but just don't go crazy.
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#2011682 - 07/30/10 09:26 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: WRbowhunter]
AllOutdoors
8 Point


Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 2331
Loc: Tennessee

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My experience is the fewer does around, the more the bucks have to move to find them. My deer population suffered bad from the EHD outbreak a few years ago. To have such a small amount of deer, I saw lots of bucks on their feet. 8 or more were stranger bucks(no pics of all season). While I didn't kill a buck last year, It was the best year I have ever had for seeing bucks. And the worst year I had for seeing does. Maybe a coincidence?
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#2011734 - 07/30/10 09:59 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: WRbowhunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
Just shooting all your does leaving only a couple will not make a more intense rut. The bucks would just move on to the next property for the does.


Surprisingly, that's often not the case.
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#2011786 - 07/30/10 10:32 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: WRbowhunter]
whistlinwingman
8 Point


Registered: 07/11/05
Posts: 1824
Loc: Morristown

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 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
Certainly more qualified people on here than Me but I would think a more balanced Doe to Buck ratio makes a healthy deer population.


I am not more qualified, but a healthier deer population isn't necessarily healthier deer population to hunt. As already stated deer sightings may go down and it may be significant.

Another important thing to note: (BSK pretty much said this already)..is that surrounding properties affect deer populations, patterns, reactions..etc. just as much, if not more than what we do on our own properties. 1200 acres could have several buck ranges that are on the property. It may just be 100 feet or 35 acres worth. You may be lucky and a buck set his core range on the majority of the property, but this would be rare in Tennessee. We just don't have large enough acerage per property.
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#2011809 - 07/30/10 10:55 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: whistlinwingman]
BSK
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 Originally Posted By: whistlinwingman
 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
Certainly more qualified people on here than Me but I would think a more balanced Doe to Buck ratio makes a healthy deer population.


I am not more qualified, but a healthier deer population isn't necessarily healthier deer population to hunt. As already stated deer sightings may go down and it may be significant.


Absolutely. Not only may the deer density be lower, but by placing intense harvest pressure on the does, you can drive them far more nocturnal than they were before you applied the pressure. But some hunters are willing to give up high doe sightings to obtain more buck sightings which the lower doe density produced through increased competition between bucks.
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#2011829 - 07/30/10 11:37 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: BSK]
whistlinwingman
8 Point


Registered: 07/11/05
Posts: 1824
Loc: Morristown

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: whistlinwingman
 Originally Posted By: WRbowhunter
Certainly more qualified people on here than Me but I would think a more balanced Doe to Buck ratio makes a healthy deer population.


I am not more qualified, but a healthier deer population isn't necessarily healthier deer population to hunt. As already stated deer sightings may go down and it may be significant.


Absolutely. Not only may the deer density be lower, but by placing intense harvest pressure on the does, you can drive them far more nocturnal than they were before you applied the pressure.


Very good point. It took me several years to realize that hunting pressure affects does a whole lot more than I give them credit for. Once you shoot into a family group, or a group of does in general, they become very educated.
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#2011972 - 07/30/10 01:13 PM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: whistlinwingman]
wobblegobble
4 Point


Registered: 02/08/10
Posts: 399
Loc: tn

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When I hunt my in-laws place I'd see at least 20 does a hunt and most days there would be a 2.5 yr old buck cruising through also, and on my farm before the thumping of does I would see many 1.5 bucks and does but now The sightings of all deer is way way down! Last year it seemed like the place was dead and the habitat is wonderful.
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#2012147 - 07/30/10 04:47 PM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: wobblegobble]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: wobblegobble
When I hunt my in-laws place I'd see at least 20 does a hunt and most days there would be a 2.5 yr old buck cruising through also, and on my farm before the thumping of does I would see many 1.5 bucks and does but now The sightings of all deer is way way down! Last year it seemed like the place was dead and the habitat is wonderful.


In some ares of Middle and westcentral TN, the deer density has been way down the last three years, due to the big die-off from EHD.
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#2012295 - 07/30/10 07:59 PM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: BSK]
MRUTVOL
6 Point


Registered: 12/16/02
Posts: 868
Loc: Goodlettsville,Tennessee,USA

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Changing the social dynamics of a local deer population is matter of what is being killed over a fairly wide area. What deer you see on your property are also travelling across many other properties, where they are subject to different harvest strategies.

Your father-in-law is probably pretty lucky that someone nearby is shooting does or that population would get too high, greatly reducing body and antler growth.



BSK.....we used to try and take several doe every year because of the idea it was good for the dynamics of the herd but we got away from it because we could not see much changing . We have maybe killed 3 doe in the last 10 years and the quality and numbers of the bucks has gotten better with each passing year. I am sure that bordering hunters are taking some but just not sure of how many but I do not hear many shots as I did years ago. I guess the selective nature of the surrounding hunters is one big factor in the quality of the bucks also.

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#2012299 - 07/30/10 08:14 PM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: MRUTVOL]
whistlinwingman
8 Point


Registered: 07/11/05
Posts: 1824
Loc: Morristown

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 Originally Posted By: MRUTVOL
 Originally Posted By: BSK
Changing the social dynamics of a local deer population is matter of what is being killed over a fairly wide area. What deer you see on your property are also travelling across many other properties, where they are subject to different harvest strategies.

Your father-in-law is probably pretty lucky that someone nearby is shooting does or that population would get too high, greatly reducing body and antler growth.



BSK.....we used to try and take several doe every year because of the idea it was good for the dynamics of the herd but we got away from it because we could not see much changing . We have maybe killed 3 doe in the last 10 years and the quality and numbers of the bucks has gotten better with each passing year. I am sure that bordering hunters are taking some but just not sure of how many but I do not hear many shots as I did years ago. I guess the selective nature of the surrounding hunters is one big factor in the quality of the bucks also.


Hopefully this is a sign that hunters are killing a few more does for meat and being more selective in their buck harvesting.
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#2012325 - 07/30/10 08:33 PM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: whistlinwingman]
Football Hunter
18 Point


Registered: 10/22/07
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I mostly kill does with a bow,seems less intrusive,but that may be just in my mind
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#2012391 - 07/30/10 09:12 PM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: Football Hunter]
mr.big
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Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 27931
Loc: Copper Head Road

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the way we do it is,,get 3-4 people and kill 8-10 in a couple days around Christmas,,instead of killing one a weekend all year,,
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#2012607 - 07/31/10 06:00 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: Football Hunter]
muddyboots
12 Point


Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 5921
Loc: savannah, tn., usa

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 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
I mostly kill does with a bow,seems less intrusive,but that may be just in my mind


Thats our plan.
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#2012645 - 07/31/10 07:41 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: muddyboots]
Bottom Hunter
16 Point


Registered: 12/29/06
Posts: 15494
Loc: Hatchie Bottoms

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Since bucks don't breed as many does as most hunters think, taking out more doe will likely have little affect on the rut. IMO. many bucks may only breed one doe per year and some will not breed at all. once a buck finds a hot doe and gets with her, he takes himself out of the race, so to speak. Sure, bucks run around crazy during most ruts, but they can also disappear with a doe and then it's game over....

IMO, a hunter has to put himself out there during this time of the season because the dynamics of the herd using his land can and will change quickyl and often. many bucks are taken every season on property where they were never seen before they were taken. This had nothing to do with the number of Doe on the property but more about being in the stand when this buck came through for the first and probably only time.....

JMO
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#2012667 - 07/31/10 08:32 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: Bottom Hunter]
mr.big
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Registered: 01/03/01
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that buck came through for his first and only time because of the number of does somewhere,
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#2012745 - 07/31/10 10:02 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: Bottom Hunter]
tndrbstr
16 Point


Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 12157
Loc: knox co tn

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 Originally Posted By: Bottom Hunter
Since bucks don't breed as many does as most hunters think, taking out more doe will likely have little affect on the rut. IMO. many bucks may only breed one doe per year and some will not breed at all. once a buck finds a hot doe and gets with her, he takes himself out of the race, so to speak. Sure, bucks run around crazy during most ruts, but they can also disappear with a doe and then it's game over....


JMO



Being in unit B, doe managment is kind of a mute point any way since we are not allowed to try to influance the doe numbers very much.

A buck doesn't know that he is just going to get lucky maybe one time a year...In its mind it is going to do its best to be out there in the game and competeing for a chance at every doe in the area...

lets say that before any does comes into estrus (pre breeding), all the bucks are out there competeing which each other looking to for that first doe, traveling more and keeping a check on things...say if four does come into estrus nearly the same time and take four bucks out of the running. That would temporarily lessen the total number of bucks traveling still in search of thier own doe to tend thus lessening the intensity of the pre breeding activity some what.

but If two of those hot does had been removed (killed) from the herd prior to entering thier estrus, then two (1/2) of those now occupied bucks would still be out there traveling and competeing with the rest of the bucks, increasing the competetion and intensity of the rut to some degree...

Add that to shortening the window it takes for most all the does to be bred( second or third estrus cycles), which would narrow the fawning window down the road, which in turn could bring more does (at least a higher% within the does herd) into thier initial estrus cycle closer to each other at the same time in following years. That in itself would most likely increase the intensity of the rut,or at least the flurry of activity just before the does are ready to stand for breeding...

but like was stated earlier, I am not sure what any obvious or definant results could be seen or known from the seat of a tree stand without some type of controll or data over a large area....

My doe stratigy (and deer in general) is pretty short term from year to year..If I am seening more does this season I will try to take more..if I'm not seein as many I will not try to hammer them just for any long term goals...but like I said, unit B is a little differant than the rest of the state..














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#2012811 - 07/31/10 11:04 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: MRUTVOL]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: MRUTVOL
We have maybe killed 3 doe in the last 10 years and the quality and numbers of the bucks has gotten better with each passing year.


Are you comparing apples to apples? Are you comparing 2 1/2s from before to 2 1/2s after; 3 1/2s from before to 3 1/2s after? Overall quality of bucks will certainly go up if the age structure is getting better and you're not considering age in the equation. But the real question is, is the quality of a single age-class getting better?
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#2012817 - 07/31/10 11:16 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: BSK]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN

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And let me also say that often deer on a single property just don't respond to management in a "textbook" fashion. Sometimes you see an exaggerated response you didn't expect and sometimes you don't see anywhere near the response you expect. And I'm sure the differences are due to conditions that are unknowable, whether that is harvest practices on surrounding properties or some other unknown factor.

That's why site-specific management is something that has to be monitored and adjusted constantly. There is no "one size fits all" management scheme. Even though the biological processes are the same deer herd to deer herd, every localized situation is unique. The trick is deciphering why a local population is responding the way it is and adjusting the management program accordingly.
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2012978 - 07/31/10 03:29 PM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: BSK]
megalomaniac
10 Point


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 4887
Loc: Mississippi

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A reasonable doe harvest has certainly improved our antlers per age class. Years ago, it was very unusual to see a yearling with more than 4 pts. Now, we're getting numerous 6-8 pt yearlings.

However, it hasn't really improved the gross score of mature bucks that I can tell. But body weights per age class is by far the most dramatic change... I would estimate we're up 20% per age class. I had no idea that it was possible to kill 200lb plus deer in TN with regularity until 5 or 6 years ago.

Oh, 'reasonable' doe harvest for us has been around 2 or 3 bucks and 15-16 does/yr off of 1200 acres.

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#2013646 - 08/01/10 10:38 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: megalomaniac]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Mega,

I definitely see more dramatic changes in body weights per age-class than improvements in antler size.
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#2014348 - 08/01/10 09:10 PM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: BSK]
JCDEERMAN
14 Point


Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 7636
Loc: NASHVILLE, TN

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We try to kill about 15 does every year. It is interesting that the years following a year that we hammer the does, we see a considerably higher number of bucks that following year.

I think there is more to a "Doe Sink". I tend to think it is more of a "Deer sink". We always see more deer the following year, but the buck numbers seem to be sky high that following year compared to years with just an average doe killing year the year before.
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#2014381 - 08/01/10 09:28 PM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: BSK]
Boone 58
16 Point


Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13540
Loc: Food Plot

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I have no facts to support it but last year was a really strange year. I suppose maybe because we had 4 consecutive weeks of gun hunting....two MZ and then Two Gun we have experienced an abnormal decrease in the amount of Doe sightings across our 3000 acre lease. I have hunted this property for 7 seasons now and this was the first of almost an entire shut down during the rut of doe movement in day light hours. I spent 13 days afield where the minimum i was on stand was 4 hours and up to a max of 7 consecutive hours and i was skunked of all doe movement completely. I have never experienced this before and cant explain it except i wonder if it was the 4 consecutive weeks of pressure. I have my doubts about this but i have no explanation. we have had other years of heavy mast, other years of "like" doe populations....i just cant figure it out and hope this was an anomally.... Time will tell and i will watch this with great attention since i am concerned. We have moderate doe populations from harvest of at least 25 per year max on most years and in some more. We have like managed properties around us including a management area below our southern border that encompasses around 4000 acres. I believe our does are just going under cover during the daylight hours. our lease only allows about 25 members so we arent over crowding our amount of deer per square mile. there are many days when we will only have 4 to 5 guys max there at all.....some only 2. I have been scratching my head ever since the last season ended wondering what really was the cause of the decreased doe sightings......I have hunted long enough to "just Know" ....something was amiss. sorry for the meanderings....
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#2014730 - 08/02/10 08:47 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: Boone 58]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: camoman270
I have no facts to support it but last year was a really strange year.


You can say that again! But I don't think it was due to changes in hunting dates. I feel strongly it was driven by environmental conditions (climate).
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#2018270 - 08/04/10 09:43 PM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: whistlinwingman]
Team Browning
8 Point


Registered: 03/01/07
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Loc: Chattanooga

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wayyyyy too many variables unless you have a LOT of land so you can control a lot of the herd's dynamics.
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#2018279 - 08/04/10 09:48 PM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: BSK]
tndrbstr
16 Point


Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 12157
Loc: knox co tn

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: camoman270
I have no facts to support it but last year was a really strange year.


You can say that again! But I don't think it was due to changes in hunting dates. I feel strongly it was driven by environmental conditions (climate).


year before last were'nt no picnic either...least not where I hunted..

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#2018565 - 08/05/10 07:27 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: tndrbstr]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: tndrbstr
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: camoman270
I have no facts to support it but last year was a really strange year.


You can say that again! But I don't think it was due to changes in hunting dates. I feel strongly it was driven by environmental conditions (climate).


year before last were'nt no picnic either...least not where I hunted..


Yup, that was the EHD year, which threw another monkey wrench into everything.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#2018574 - 08/05/10 07:34 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: BSK]
tndrbstr
16 Point


Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 12157
Loc: knox co tn

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: tndrbstr
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: camoman270
I have no facts to support it but last year was a really strange year.


You can say that again! But I don't think it was due to changes in hunting dates. I feel strongly it was driven by environmental conditions (climate).


year before last were'nt no picnic either...least not where I hunted..


Yup, that was the EHD year, which threw another monkey wrench into everything.


that was also the year that we had many of the oaks and other trees around here keeping and holding their green leaves looong after they should have been gone. even the robins didn't act like they normaly do to me....it seemed like almost every sign of fall missed the que.......it was crazy...



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#2018616 - 08/05/10 08:06 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: tndrbstr]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: tndrbstr
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: tndrbstr
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: camoman270
I have no facts to support it but last year was a really strange year.


You can say that again! But I don't think it was due to changes in hunting dates. I feel strongly it was driven by environmental conditions (climate).


year before last were'nt no picnic either...least not where I hunted..


Yup, that was the EHD year, which threw another monkey wrench into everything.


that was also the year that we had many of the oaks and other trees around here keeping and holding their green leaves looong after they should have been gone. even the robins didn't act like they normaly do to me....it seemed like almost every sign of fall missed the que.......it was crazy...


Yup. Late freeze in spring, no acorns, record summer heat, severe drought, and a major EHD outbreak. Wrap all those together and you've got some real fluky deer patterns.
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#2018712 - 08/05/10 09:10 AM Re: shooting Doe?? [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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Often, we can't CONTROL as much about the deer herd and hunting as we would like to believe, especially if we're only "managing" 500 acres or less. We can make positive changes, but our situation may be more "controlled" by the surrounding 5,000 acres than by the 500 acres we control.

In the absence of other data and identifiable factors, I believe a good "Rule of Thumb" for many hunters may be simply to focus on killing at least as many female as male deer wherever you hunt. May not be possible every year, but certainly very doable over every 3-year time frame.

If you average killing 2 or 3 deer a year, you might want to see something like having taken 3 or 4 antlered and 4 or 5 antlerless over a 3-year period. Just a good HEALTHY "rule of thumb" in the absence of other factors.

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