#2006950 - 07/25/10 09:24 PM
Re: Now I have a Different view
[Re: BigGameGuy]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16960
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Actually, it's all a matter of "perspective".
From my perspective, 300% more of anything is "significant", as in your "chances" of getting something might be 3 times better.
I'll use a "Wes-ism" right here. Don't worry we're friends so he won't be too offended...  "16 more" is actually 300% more which is sounds like a HUGE amount. That is until you put it in perspective. . . . . . . . I'd take 150,000% over 300% anyday.
But you may be talking mosquitoes while I'm talking bucks.
From my perspective, you've just given another "Doodling Darylism."
In all seriousness...
If you look at the numbers over the last decade or so, those two Kentucky counties have killed approximately 3,600 bucks that were 3-1/2 years of age or older. The Tennessee counties have killed approximately 5,400 bucks that were 3-1/2 years of age or older.
We are killing one and a half times more mature bucks than they are yet they are putting more deer into the record books.
Since age is not the issue, it must be something else . . . nutrition.
AND ANTLER-HIGH GRADING, particularly of top-end 2 1/2-yr-old TN bucks at a much higher rate than of top-end 2 1/2-yr-old KY bucks.
IMO, this ANTLER-HIGH GRADING has become a bigger issue than nutrition (or soil) in comparing many "similar" KY counties to many "similar" TN counties. Again, compare Henry County, TN to any of a number of both KY and TN counties.
Think about it, a few extra inches per age-class is all you need to tip the record books in your favor. Unfortunately the scales are, and will always be, tipped in Kentucky's favor.
Yes, THINK about it.
What happens when nearly all of the largest antlered 2 1/2's get killed in TN, while a high percentage of them survive among their "peer" or relative cohort group in KY?
Seriously, you know I'm not saying ALL top-end bucks of any age are being killed in TN. Just saying that an extremely large 2 1/2 yr-old buck in KY is perhaps 300% more likely to survive to 4 1/2 in KY. While those best 2 1/2's that DO survive in TN, are then much more likely to be killed as a 3 1/2 in TN than they would have been in KY.
At the end of the day, we may have more "mature" bucks in TN,
but what we have may be more the result of the smaller antlered bucks many hunters found EASY to pass up as 2 1/2's. Meaning we have smaller-antlered mature bucks in TN, not so much because of nutritional differences, but more because of hunter "mindset" differences.
By the way, antler high-grading is happening in all states, just appears to be happening at a much lower rate in states (and locations within states) where hunters have the "mindset" that it's a "trophy" buck area.
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#2007002 - 07/25/10 10:00 PM
Re: Now I have a Different view
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24550
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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Actually, it's all a matter of "perspective". From my perspective, 300% more of anything is "significant", as in your "chances" of getting something might be 3 times better. I'll use a "Wes-ism" right here. Don't worry we're friends so he won't be too offended... "16 more" is actually 300% more which is sounds like a HUGE amount. That is until you put it in perspective. . . . . . . . I'd take 150,000% over 300% anyday. But you may be talking mosquitoes while I'm talking bucks. From my perspective, you've just given another "Doodling Darylism." In all seriousness...
If you look at the numbers over the last decade or so, those two Kentucky counties have killed approximately 3,600 bucks that were 3-1/2 years of age or older. The Tennessee counties have killed approximately 5,400 bucks that were 3-1/2 years of age or older.
We are killing one and a half times more mature bucks than they are yet they are putting more deer into the record books.
Since age is not the issue, it must be something else . . . nutrition. , particularly of top-end 2 1/2-yr-old TN bucks at a much higher rate than of top-end 2 1/2-yr-old KY bucks. IMO, this ANTLER-HIGH GRADING has become a bigger issue than nutrition (or soil) in comparing many "similar" KY counties to many "similar" TN counties. Again, compare Henry County, TN to any of a number of both KY and TN counties. Think about it, a few extra inches per age-class is all you need to tip the record books in your favor. Unfortunately the scales are, and will always be, tipped in Kentucky's favor. Yes, THINK about it. What happens when nearly all of the largest antlered 2 1/2's get killed in TN, while a high percentage of them survive among their "peer" or relative cohort group in KY? Seriously, you know I'm not saying ALL top-end bucks of any age are being killed in TN. Just saying that an extremely large 2 1/2 yr-old buck in KY is perhaps 300% more likely to survive to 4 1/2 in KY. While those best 2 1/2's that DO survive in TN, are then much more likely to be killed as a 3 1/2 in TN than they would have been in KY. At the end of the day, we may have more "mature" bucks in TN, but what we have may be more the result of the smaller antlered bucks many hunters found EASY to pass up as 2 1/2's. Meaning we have smaller-antlered mature bucks in TN, not so much because of nutritional differences, but more because of hunter "mindset" differences. By the way, antler high-grading is happening in all states, just appears to be happening at a much lower rate in states (and locations within states) where hunters have the "mindset" that it's a "trophy" buck area.
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#2007019 - 07/25/10 10:11 PM
Re: Now I have a Different view
[Re: RAFI]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16960
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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wes how do you get your numbers that lbl has a lower deer density than most other wmas?there are more wooded areas than fields by far but my point was that lbl still has more ag. than probably any other public land in Tn.
RAFI,
I've spent a lot of time on LBL as well as many other WMA's.
There are fewer deer per square mile on LBL than most WMA's within the same region as LBL. Relative to many other WMA's, LBL has been lacking in good cover habitat as well as diverse food sources for deer, why I believe the deer numbers have stayed a bit lower than many WMA's. However, the Forest Service has made some major strides in improving LBL's habitat diversity during the past couple years, mainly by using fire.
Sometimes it "appears" there are a lot of deer at LBL based on what you see feeding in bean fields. But many of those deer have traveled miles to get to those bean fields, and that's not so "obvious".
Like stated previously, LBL "appears" to have a lot more cultivated farm crops than they do in reality. This is mainly because they're mostly along the roads, and it's not so obvious how far those woods go beyond the field before the next field.
Now, I will agree with you that LBL has more planted crops within it than many WMA's, but that's a moot point from my perspective.
You see, many (actually most in Region 1) WMA's just happen to be the best cover in a localized area, and those WMA's are surrounded by farmland. On many WMA's, most if not all deer are within a mile of a lot more agricultural crops than what is found within LBL. Once nighttime comes, the deer have few boundaries, and they leave the WMA's to feed in adjacent ag fields. May matter little if there are no ag fields within the boundaries of the WMA.
LBL is very different in that it is mostly surrounded by a natural lake/river barrier and/or sheer distance to the nearest agricultural lands OFF the WMA. Deer can't leave LBL and go to some adjacent farm to feed at night, like happens on so many other WMA's. Thus, deer on LBL do not have nearly as much "access" to crop fields as deer on many other WMA's, particularly within Region I.
As an example of great access to private (off the WMA) croplands, just take a look at West Sandy WMA in Henry County which is hardly more than across the river from the southern portion of LBL. Will also emphasize again that most WMA's in the same region as LBL have much better soils than LBL. Yet LBL has produced more B&C bucks per square mile than most other areas. Why?
But keep this in perspective.
Even though you "may" have a better chance at a B&C buck on LBL than West Sandy, chances are so low in both places that most hunters could spend a lifetime on either or both, and still never kill one. Chances for those kind of bucks are just much higher in many other places, such as anywhere in Kentucky. 
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#2007024 - 07/25/10 10:17 PM
Re: Now I have a Different view
[Re: Football Hunter]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16960
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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In other words,a "good en" gets killed in Tn,while in Ky a "good en" gets a pass waiting on a "great en",nothing to do with limits though.
Actually, part of this has much to do with "limits".
Those lower buck limits have played a large role in shaping hunter mindset, imo. Again, I don't want a 1-buck limit, but cannot deny its impact in causing the more accomplished hunters, you know, the ones that can kill one or more bucks every year (if they so choose), to have become more choosy regarding what they don't shoot.
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#2007044 - 07/25/10 10:37 PM
Re: Now I have a Different view
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24550
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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agreed
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The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!
You wont know,if you dont go!
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#2007046 - 07/25/10 10:39 PM
Re: Now I have a Different view
[Re: Football Hunter]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24550
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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agreed,because,"I can still kill 2 more"BTW IM for a 2 buck limit.
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The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!
You wont know,if you dont go!
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#2007054 - 07/25/10 10:46 PM
Re: Now I have a Different view
[Re: Football Hunter]
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RAFI
10 Point
Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 2552
Loc: Tn
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If you agree then why are you for a two buck limit?Just don't get it.A 1 buck will make hunters let more deer walk.
Edited by RAFI (07/25/10 10:47 PM)
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#2007062 - 07/25/10 10:51 PM
Re: Now I have a Different view
[Re: RAFI]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24550
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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justwhat I think,still make people more choosy,but I wouldnt cry about 1,it would be fine,1 here,1 in Ky
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