#2002625 - 07/21/10 06:44 PM
Re: Why a limit change?
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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. . . . . and show where the average antler characteristic per age-class has not declined over time (which would be indicative of high-grading).
Relative to those Mississippi studies that showed the average 3 1/2 having smaller antlers following the high-grading of the better younger bucks (for which I totally agree was greatly because of their antler restrictions) ---- I do understand where you're coming from . . . . . but . . . . . .
Things have changed here, and this ain't Mississippi. 
It may be that our average 2 1/2 & 3 1/2-yr-old harvested buck in TN is measuring out with larger antlers than compared to many years ago, regardless?
Keep in mind there are a growing number of TN hunters focused on mainly just harvesting 3 1/2 & older bucks, and many of them are passing up 3 1/2's with smaller antlers.
Regarding buck's antlers, could it be that hunter harvests are no longer much an indicator of much regarding herd health?
Then there are other factors muddying our waters that would seem to make an otherwise valid comparison invalid.
Back when most TN deer hunting was "buck only", I noticed that most of the bucks that survived to 2 1/2 had been spikes the year before. Even though hunters were not meaning to let ANY legal bucks walk, they often simply failed to see the spikes, so many spikes did in fact get to walk when the hunter thought it was a doe. Today, many of those spikes get shot because the hunter thinks it's a doe. Talking about screwing up the data sets!
Over the decades, habitat changes have been favorable to herd health, perhaps particularly when much of the oldest data came from deer been harvested in poorer soil regions (i.e. Tellico, etc.) where as more recently it's coming more from West TN agricultural counties with lots of corn & soybeans in the deer's diet. We also have improved buck:doe ratios and more advanced buck age structure, which some studies suggest improves antler growth for younger bucks.
In my area of Stewart County, until the mid-1990's, most of the county was a big (and fairly mature) oak-hickory forest. Today, most of this same county is a hodge-podge of mostly greatly improved habitat (for deer) consisting of a checker-board pattern of cut-over, clear-cuts, and hunter-installed food plots. This has been a massive countywide habitat change that's taken an acorn-driven herd to one that now would suffer little with a total mast failure. And something similar has happened over just the past 15 years in many TN counties.
My thoughts are we just have no data that will show much one way or the other regarding the antler high-grading I've experienced.
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#2002627 - 07/21/10 06:45 PM
Re: Why a limit change?
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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All the data and other factors aside, what I'm thinking is, for whatever reasons, but hunter "mindset" being one of them, a top-end 2 1/2-yr-old buck is more likely to be voluntarily allowed to walk in KY than in TN. It's beside the point that a top-end KY 2 1/2 may "outscore" a top-end TN 2 1/2. This differing "mindset" is often by the same hunter, who may just have his expectations too low regarding the potential we have to produce larger antlered older bucks in TN, if they could just get that extra year or two of age.
Just takes a change in "mindset", and perhaps we're getting there.
Five years ago, I'd never have believed BSK would let ANY 2 1/2-yr-old buck walk. 
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#2002724 - 07/21/10 07:54 PM
Re: Why a limit change?
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
12 Point
Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 6354
Loc: Nashville
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Wes,
We don't need large datasets from 3-1/2 year old bucks and older. In fact, we can use the data solely from 2-1/2 and younger.
If high grading is occuring as you suggest we would see a change in the antler characteristics of young deer as well. Afterall the genes do not change in a deer as it gets older. In other words, if we are killing our best 2-1/2 and 3-1/2 year old deer, and causing this high grading affect, we'll see a change in the characteristics of the young deer since we are supposedly removing the best genes from our pool.
And yes...we have a very large dataset of very usable data from all regions and counties across the state. I'll see what I can start pulling together.
_________________________
If given the choice between education and regulation, I'll choose education every time.
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#2002792 - 07/21/10 08:34 PM
Re: Why a limit change?
[Re: BigGameGuy]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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In other words, if we are killing our best 2-1/2 and 3-1/2 year old deer, and causing this high grading affect, we'll see a change in the characteristics of the young deer since we are supposedly removing the best genes from our pool.
In the context you're talking, I agree with you.
Can YOU believe I would say such a thing.
I think I may be doing a poor job communicating something a little different than what you're thinking about.
Regarding what I'm thinking, there would be no "genetic" changes expected.
I'm simply saying the main reason we have so few larger-antlered older bucks living is because we tend to kill more of those larger antlered younger bucks --- I would not expect this to have any significant effect on the genetic potential of future generations.
If there's 100 2 1/2-yr-old bucks in Humphreys County, let's just say 9 of the 10 largest antlered ones get killed, while 9 of the 10 smallest antlered ones live to 3 1/2. Then just say 40 of the other 80 get killed. How is this hunter "selection" effecting genetics of future unborn bucks?
My thinking is this hunter "selection" has essentially no effect at all on the antler genetics of the subsequent generations.
I don't think the average antler scores of the 2 1/2's from 20 years ago vs. those of today have much if anything to do with genetic changes. But maybe I'm totally wrong about this.
But, this hunter "selection" does particularly effect the average antler scores of what's left alive by 3 1/2 and older.
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