#2000964 - 07/20/10 03:29 PM
Re: Open for debate..selective harvest..
[Re: turkeyhunter64]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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What the studies have shown is that removing ("culling") bucks with smaller antlers does not positively affect the antlers of future bucks in the area. In fact, removing bucks for no other reason than antler size often has a detrmental affect long-term. All you are doing is removing future mature bucks that would have had a positive influence on the herd, regardless of their antler size.
As for how many does a buck breeds, on average it is less than 1 per year. Many bucks do no breeding at all.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#2000976 - 07/20/10 03:49 PM
Re: Open for debate..selective harvest..
[Re: BSK]
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Tomahawk
6 Point
Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 762
Loc: east & west tn
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As for how many does a buck breeds, on average it is less than 1 per year. Many bucks do no breeding at all.
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#2001004 - 07/20/10 04:12 PM
Re: Open for debate..selective harvest..
[Re: Tomahawk]
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Bottom Hunter
16 Point
Registered: 12/29/06
Posts: 15480
Loc: Hatchie Bottoms
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Dispersal tells me that very few bucks born in your area will ever live and/or breed there.....
SO..................if one mature buck with great genetics does most of the breeding, HIS gene pool will get dispersed all over the county and even into other counties since some bucks may move many many miles away before settling down.....
SO..............selective harvest does nothing to increase the "big buck" gene pool in your area....thusly unless you can keep the deer in your area, which is very unlikely, it is mainly luck that ANOTHER buck with great genes moves into your area when one of YOUR young bucks moves out.....
did I make any sense there at all?????
_________________________
There are some people who always seem angry and continuously look for conflict.
Walk away; the battle they are fighting is not with you, but with themselves.
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#2001019 - 07/20/10 04:25 PM
Re: Open for debate..selective harvest..
[Re: Bottom Hunter]
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Tomahawk
6 Point
Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 762
Loc: east & west tn
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Makes sense to me Bottom Hunter. 90% of the bucks that visit my does are "new" to the area as far as not being the ones I photoed the years prior. Every now and then will a particular buck make a return visit, at least from what I can tell from prior photos. I know the bucks don't live there because I keep cameras going all year long over garden sized food plot and only the same does use it until November hits. Thats when the fun begins.
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#2001031 - 07/20/10 04:34 PM
Re: Open for debate..selective harvest..
[Re: turkeyhunter64]
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Double-D-Team
10 Point
Registered: 12/18/02
Posts: 3483
Loc: God's Country
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I guess we are different here in NE TN or on our farm we hunt. Seems to us the same old bucks but just one year older. Now we get some new comers now and then but we seem to keep our bucks around. We also leave the camera's up year round. I know I've got this one buck who is 6 years old, he has a special mark on him...Smart deer too...at least smarter than me....
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Don and Dee (DOUBLE-D-TEAM)
THE RICHEST VALUES OF WILDERNESS LIE NOT IN THE DAYS OF DANIEL BOONE NOR EVEN IN THE PRESENT. BUT IN THE FUTURE--LEOPOLD
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#2001046 - 07/20/10 04:45 PM
Re: Open for debate..selective harvest..
[Re: Tomahawk]
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Double-D-Team
10 Point
Registered: 12/18/02
Posts: 3483
Loc: God's Country
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I guess we are different here in NE TN or on our farm we hunt. Seems to us the same old bucks but just one year older. Now we get some new comers now and then but we seem to keep our bucks around. We also leave the camera's up year round. I know I've got this one buck who is 6 years old, he has a special mark on him...Smart deer too...at least smarter than me.... Yea these areas I speak of are very very small. 15-20 acres of urban type hunting. Many small tracts of woods that interconnect. So these bucks could just be around the corner, they just don't seem to invade my nanny does territory until it is time to court her. It really is a terrific situation as far as window of opportunity. Not giants, just solid buck here and there. 
Sounds like a good deal to me...I like solid bucks...They got to turn into big bucks someday... 
_________________________
Don and Dee (DOUBLE-D-TEAM)
THE RICHEST VALUES OF WILDERNESS LIE NOT IN THE DAYS OF DANIEL BOONE NOR EVEN IN THE PRESENT. BUT IN THE FUTURE--LEOPOLD
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#2001059 - 07/20/10 05:00 PM
Re: Open for debate..selective harvest..
[Re: BSK]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16968
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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IMO, one of the best things we could do for the Tennessee deer herd is simply remove the words "cull buck" from our vocabulary and thinking.
. . . . . removing bucks for no other reason than antler size often has a detrimental affect long-term. All you are doing is removing future mature bucks that would have had a positive influence on the herd, regardless of their antler size.
And beyond totally agreeing with BSK, some studies have shown that bucks in a localized deer herd actually grow larger antlers in the presence of a greater number of mature bucks (without regard to the antler size of those mature bucks).
In other words, some type of hormone appears to come into play, stimulating greater antler grow, and this hormone is produced by mature bucks. Fewer mature bucks, then fewer whatever bucks you have getting closer to their genetic potential.
Any time a buck is killed (regardless of his antlers), it reduces the buck:doe ratio and reduces the ongoing buck age structure. Simply better to have more bucks, at least up to somewhere around a 1:1 buck:doe ratio and somewhere around having a good balance in that buck age structure (maybe a third approaching "mature"). Of course, this said under the assumption that there's not too many deer for the habitat, under which conditions more deer period need to removed (but with a greater focus on harvesting female deer).
By "culling" on free-range TN bucks, all you are doing is removing future mature bucks that would have had a positive influence on the herd, regardless of their antler size.
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#2001067 - 07/20/10 05:07 PM
Re: Open for debate..selective harvest..
[Re: Bottom Hunter]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16968
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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SO..................if one mature buck with great genetics does most of the breeding, HIS gene pool will get dispersed all over the county and even into other counties since some bucks may move many many miles away before settling down.....
did I make any sense there at all?????
You're right on about the dispersal, but we've been sold a "bill of goods" regarding the genetics. It's mostly BS.
IMO, most of the deer (buck/does) in one county have just as good a "genetic" make-up as those in most any other county of TN, or in KY, or in Texas. I no longer "buy" that KY bucks have better genetics than TN bucks. There is some rare exception to what I'm saying, but generally speaking, all the talk about genetics is a bunch of BS.
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