#1988414 - 07/10/10 12:05 PM
Re: ethics question
[Re: MRUTVOL]
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megalomaniac
10 Point
Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 4887
Loc: Mississippi
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BH I used to work with a guy who had similar thoughts as you and he lost his taste for hunting and took another avenue...
One of my hunting buddies was like that... 5 or 6 years ago, the longest shot he'd ever made on a deer was around 125 yards in the woods. I introduced him to long range hunting 5 or 6 years ago, and he's addicted. He made a heart shot on a doe on my property last November at 1007 yards!
But BH, I do feel you are right about it not being 'hunting', but just 'shooting'. But I'd rather 'shoot' a deer at 700 yards than 'hunt' a deer at 50 yards with a rifle. But then again, I'd rather 'hunt' anything with a bow over 'hunting' (translation- shooting a deer under 250 yards) with a rifle. But that's all a personal thing.
The big point is that we as hunters/shooters/whatevers have the responsibility to be proficient with our weapon of choice and distance of choice. It would be just as unethical for an archer to shoot at a deer at 35 yards when he's not proficient as a gun hunter to shoot at 500 yards when he's not proficient. Heck, some people have no business shooting rifles at deer even at 100 yards.
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#1988458 - 07/10/10 01:36 PM
Re: ethics question
[Re: MRUTVOL]
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mr.big
Non-Typical
Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 27931
Loc: Copper Head Road
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I hunt because of the challenge that it gives me
Now if that means I stop using a compound and start
a using a re curve without sights or want to make long
long range shots that is what I will do..
A Long stretch to clubbing a baby seals.
All the politically correct BS doesn't interest
me. Honestly IMO does more to damage the tradition.
Guess I am a redneck and I will keep on killing animals,
eating them and decorating my house with their heads not
For a second pretending to care if I stepped on a
bug or broke a branch in the process no matter who
it may offend. I can't see the challenge of the "hunt" when you shoot at excessive distances. The deer has little advantage at that distance. They can't really see , hear or smell you at that distance or even if they did, they wouldn't be too concerned, IMO. Since it takes very little hunting skills to take a deer at excessive distances, then the challenge must be the shot. Right? So, would it be safe to say that hitting a living animal at 500 yards is more difficult than a paper target or milk jug? Actually, in most cases a target (jug) would be somewhat smaller than a live deer, so IMO the jug would be more difficult to hit. Maybe it's because the animal can move, but surely no one would dare shoot at a deer at 500 yards while it was moving.....would they? Surely not. So, since the "shot" has nothing to do with hunting and it's more about making a great shot, then why not just shoot something that won't suffer if you don't make a clean hit.....? Plus, someone else mentioned the fact that at that distance you can not be sure what is behind your target or even what obstructions there might be that you just simply can not see. I have trouble making out tree limbs and sage grass at closer distances through a scope, much less at 500 yards. What a hunter should always do before taking a shot is clearly identify the target and make sure that there is nothing behind or in front of the target. Even at close distances, hitting a limb can send a bullet off in to all sorts of directions. At that distance, once you touch off that trigger, the bullet has a long way to go before reaching the target. Bullets have no eyes and no conscience....Clearly seeing the target and knowing what's in the area (in front and behind) is the responsible thing to do and I just can't see that being the case at 500 yards..... again, thanks for the civil discussion (for the most part,lol) I was going to leave this "out of hand dicussion" alone but BH you are way off base on this one. I can only assume that you have never tried to make a shot at those distances because it is quiet apparent that yo have no idea what your talking about. You are making way to many assumptions about conditions of the shot that may not even exist. I can kill a deer just as dead at 500 yds. as I can 50yds. The conditions of where I hunt regulary present the opportunity for me to have to make long shots. Without going into great detail as to why I have to take those long shots let me just say that years ago I decided after passing up opportunity after opportunity at big bucks because I felt the range was to far I decided to learn to make shots at those ranges and praticed and praticed and the one thing I learned there is a lot more to it than just putting the crosshairs on a spot and pulling the trigger. There are multiple varibles. There is a big difference in target shooting and shooting under hunting conditions. I would venture to say that the average hunter can not regulary even make a one shot kill at 300 yds let alone 500. Some even at less distance than that. They do not understand the ballistics of their weapon or bullets or conditions. Long range shooting is an art and much more of a challenge than you give it credit. Most people such as you that bash it do so simply because they can not or have not made a long shot. Personally I have set my limit at 500 yds because that is my comfort zone of feeling that I can make a clean kill if needed. Most come well within that range but if I have to I can. I do not recomend it for anyone who does not practice it. The way you describe it it is a piece of cake with no challenge and your dead wrong...IMO. Killing big deer is the real challenge not just a deer and being able to put the ability to make that long shot has made my success quality skyrocket. BH I used to work with a guy who had similar thoughts as you and he lost his taste for hunting and took another avenue you may want to try. He sold his guns and bought himself a high dollar camera and would go to the woods and set up in stands with orange vest and all ,just like he was deer hunting, but he shot his deer with a camera. He had some great pics and satisfied his outdoors thrist and at the same time kept his soft heart happy ! 
anybody that can make a "Cold Bore" one shot kill on a deer at 500 yards,in below freezing weather,which will make it shoot like 600,with wind and mirage ,,and with the added condition of shooting at a live animal,,is truely in a separate leauge,,IMO
put it like this,,say your shooting pool,by yourself,,practicing a 2 rail shot in the side pocket,,you have made it 5 times in a row,,some dude walks up and lays down 500 $$$ and says you will miss the next shot,,do you have the balls to try it???
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Tndeer`s resident poacher and desperate loser
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#1988726 - 07/10/10 07:24 PM
Re: ethics question
[Re: mr.big]
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redblood
16 Point
Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 10170
Loc: Lewisburg
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good enough
Edited by redblood (07/10/10 08:59 PM)
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"I will predator hunt for food "
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#1989125 - 07/11/10 03:10 AM
Re: ethics question
[Re: pjridge]
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Tiny
16 Point
Registered: 02/09/02
Posts: 17602
Loc: Knoxville
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I have an awesome food plot,with a salt lick at 519 yards from my shooting bench,,I can easly set up at 75 yards on this same plot,,the farthest I ever killed a deer is 485 yards,,I know I can make the 500 yard shot on an unspooked deer,,,would it be unethical to intentionally set up 500 yards from where you know deer will be just to be able to say you killed a doe at 500 yards??
starting the middle of august I will fire 4-5 shots at that range every single day,,rifle will hold 3 to 3 1/2 inch groups at the range
Nope Why would you want to do that? I can't comprehend the way you think! I just don't understand.
Not Mr.Big but No different than shooting one at any range when you KNOW you can not Think You CAN,big difference.
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Have a Great Day and God Bless
God Answers Prayers Yes No or Not Yet
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#1989127 - 07/11/10 03:22 AM
Re: ethics question
[Re: Winchester]
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Tiny
16 Point
Registered: 02/09/02
Posts: 17602
Loc: Knoxville
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It works both ways guys. Im also one that loves to bowhunt and nothing makes me happier than to have done my job right, and have a big mature buck withing bow range and when I deflate him he never knew I was ever there, simply awesome. Now at the same time, there are many gun enthusiasts that like nothing better than spending their hours at a reloading bench, and then a shooting bench. Trying to see how far they can effectively kill their prey! Practicing and becoming efficient at 5 or 6 or 7 hundred yards, and then passing the ultimate test of cleanly killing a deer at your practiced distances, would also be a great success for many. I think labeling it as 'stroking your ego' may fall under the jealousy department. If you have no interest in learning how to do it this way thats fine, but dont condemn someone else for having a different goal of success. Some hunters would tell you that there is simply no challenge at all in killing a deer at 75 yards with a gun, so therefore they do their homework on long range shooting! Its all good, lets support each other on our wins!
Well said as are others up to and likely after this one.
_________________________
Have a Great Day and God Bless
God Answers Prayers Yes No or Not Yet
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#1989196 - 07/11/10 08:13 AM
Re: ethics question
[Re: MRUTVOL]
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Bottom Hunter
16 Point
Registered: 12/29/06
Posts: 15480
Loc: Hatchie Bottoms
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I hunt because of the challenge that it gives me
Now if that means I stop using a compound and start
a using a re curve without sights or want to make long
long range shots that is what I will do..
A Long stretch to clubbing a baby seals.
All the politically correct BS doesn't interest
me. Honestly IMO does more to damage the tradition.
Guess I am a redneck and I will keep on killing animals,
eating them and decorating my house with their heads not
For a second pretending to care if I stepped on a
bug or broke a branch in the process no matter who
it may offend. I can't see the challenge of the "hunt" when you shoot at excessive distances. The deer has little advantage at that distance. They can't really see , hear or smell you at that distance or even if they did, they wouldn't be too concerned, IMO. Since it takes very little hunting skills to take a deer at excessive distances, then the challenge must be the shot. Right? So, would it be safe to say that hitting a living animal at 500 yards is more difficult than a paper target or milk jug? Actually, in most cases a target (jug) would be somewhat smaller than a live deer, so IMO the jug would be more difficult to hit. Maybe it's because the animal can move, but surely no one would dare shoot at a deer at 500 yards while it was moving.....would they? Surely not. So, since the "shot" has nothing to do with hunting and it's more about making a great shot, then why not just shoot something that won't suffer if you don't make a clean hit.....? Plus, someone else mentioned the fact that at that distance you can not be sure what is behind your target or even what obstructions there might be that you just simply can not see. I have trouble making out tree limbs and sage grass at closer distances through a scope, much less at 500 yards. What a hunter should always do before taking a shot is clearly identify the target and make sure that there is nothing behind or in front of the target. Even at close distances, hitting a limb can send a bullet off in to all sorts of directions. At that distance, once you touch off that trigger, the bullet has a long way to go before reaching the target. Bullets have no eyes and no conscience....Clearly seeing the target and knowing what's in the area (in front and behind) is the responsible thing to do and I just can't see that being the case at 500 yards..... again, thanks for the civil discussion (for the most part,lol) I was going to leave this "out of hand dicussion" alone but BH you are way off base on this one. I can only assume that you have never tried to make a shot at those distances because it is quiet apparent that yo have no idea what your talking about. You are making way to many assumptions about conditions of the shot that may not even exist. I can kill a deer just as dead at 500 yds. as I can 50yds. The conditions of where I hunt regulary present the opportunity for me to have to make long shots. Without going into great detail as to why I have to take those long shots let me just say that years ago I decided after passing up opportunity after opportunity at big bucks because I felt the range was to far I decided to learn to make shots at those ranges and praticed and praticed and the one thing I learned there is a lot more to it than just putting the crosshairs on a spot and pulling the trigger. There are multiple varibles. There is a big difference in target shooting and shooting under hunting conditions. I would venture to say that the average hunter can not regulary even make a one shot kill at 300 yds let alone 500. Some even at less distance than that. They do not understand the ballistics of their weapon or bullets or conditions. Long range shooting is an art and much more of a challenge than you give it credit. Most people such as you that bash it do so simply because they can not or have not made a long shot. Personally I have set my limit at 500 yds because that is my comfort zone of feeling that I can make a clean kill if needed. Most come well within that range but if I have to I can. I do not recomend it for anyone who does not practice it. The way you describe it it is a piece of cake with no challenge and your dead wrong...IMO. Killing big deer is the real challenge not just a deer and being able to put the ability to make that long shot has made my success quality skyrocket. BH I used to work with a guy who had similar thoughts as you and he lost his taste for hunting and took another avenue you may want to try. He sold his guns and bought himself a high dollar camera and would go to the woods and set up in stands with orange vest and all ,just like he was deer hunting, but he shot his deer with a camera. He had some great pics and satisfied his outdoors thrist and at the same time kept his soft heart happy !
Thanks for the info......
You say that you can kill a deer just as dead at 500 yards as you can at 50. Sounds reasonable provided that you hit the deer in the right place. I never said that the bullet would lose enough velocity and killing power to not be effective at that distance. I simply said that at that distance, mistakes are magnified and knowing who or what may be behind your target or nearby is virtually impossible.
You stated that when you HAD TO pass up good bucks because of the distance, you decided to start practicing that shot and then when you got good enough at it, you started taking those shots. If you go back and read one of my posts I talked about doing just that. "Having to" make a shot like that is not the same as backing off purposely to take the shot when a much closer and easier shot is available. Some of you still don't seem to understand my point....STILL!!! I'm not so down on dude for taking the shot, but more purposely backing away to do so. Sometimes, those type shots are the only shot you have and if you are confident that you can make it, then try it, but to purposely back away is not right IMO.
You say that there is a big difference in target shooting and hunting conditions. I agree. that is why practicing a shot at this distance does not insure success, it only increases your odds of making an ethical kill.
You say that shooting at these distances is an art and more challenging than I give it credit. A agree. It is very difficult to make a 500 yard shot under ideal condtions, much less out in the field where an animal may be standing at an angle and not broadside like a target would be. Animals tend to move at just the WRONG time and if one does take a step just as you squeeze one off, then at 500 yards, that step will most likely mean a wounded deer. My point was simply that with today's technology making a shot this far is far less the feat as it might have been 10-20 years ago. Some weapons shoot remarkably flat and some scopes are simply amazing......I have no doubt that a professional shooter can make a 500 yard shot on a target 99 out of 100 times. Sitting on a bench shooting a target 500 yards away is not the same as shooting off a deer stand rail or out of a ground blind...
As far as me taking a camera to the deer stand and putting the weapon down , well, I can say that it has crossed my mind. I have two problems with that though....Chaneylake Hunt Club does not give out free memberships for pictures of big deer and I like seeing my wife's face when I tell her that another one is going on the wall....LOL.
Actually, the PROCESS is what I enjoy much more than actually killing the deer, BUT, watching that deer drop and knowing that I was successful has it's rewards as well...
Again, I'd like to thank everyone for being civil(somewhat)and having a nice discussion......see, it IS possible...lol.
Thanks
Edited by Bottom Hunter (07/11/10 08:14 AM)
_________________________
There are some people who always seem angry and continuously look for conflict.
Walk away; the battle they are fighting is not with you, but with themselves.
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#1989201 - 07/11/10 08:31 AM
Re: ethics question
[Re: Double-D-Team]
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Bottom Hunter
16 Point
Registered: 12/29/06
Posts: 15480
Loc: Hatchie Bottoms
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Bottom Hunter...Where do you come up with these subjects??? You kill me sometimes...I have to give it to you, they do cause a person to think.... 
thanks...I try to contribute ....lol.
Actually, this is not my subject, just my opinions, of which I have way too many, some would say...lol.
My wife tells our friends all the time...."Don't get him started!!"
Around my house, don't ask and you won't get an ear full......lol.
Good debate and discussion is the only way to really know who your friends are. Some of my best frends are questionable , at best...lol.
thanks
_________________________
There are some people who always seem angry and continuously look for conflict.
Walk away; the battle they are fighting is not with you, but with themselves.
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#1989911 - 07/11/10 08:57 PM
Re: ethics question
[Re: Bottom Hunter]
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mr.big
Non-Typical
Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 27931
Loc: Copper Head Road
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BH,,here is all my high technology equipment,,and Redblood,notice the wide forend and all the knobs on the scope,,
it is a Rem 700 BDLSS that Timintn pillar glas bedded a CDL walnut stock for,it has a Shillen trigger set at 28 ounces,,the scope is 3.5-10x50 Leupold,,zeroed at 300 yards with 150 Nosler Partitions at almost 3700 fps,,shoots quiet well,,but my methods of shooting are not high tech and I dont even have a rangefinder,,I shot and know this setup very well,,with the 300 yard zero it is 8 inches low at 400 and 19 low at 500,,with extensive testing I came up with a pretty simple way of going about this and how I decide to shoot or not,the scope set on 10X is 18 inches from the center crosshair to the fat part of the scope at 500 yards,so if I put the crosshair on the top of a deers back and it fills the space between the crosshair and the fat part of the bottom stadia,it is 500 yards,,at that range you put the fat part of the bottom post where you want to hit ,allow for wind and squeez it off,,I have shot it at a board with an 18 inch target at 400 yards enough to be able to tell when a deer is close to 400,at 400 hold level to the top of its back and squeeze it off,from muzzle to 350 the bullet is never over three inches high which is about 230 yards and is 3 inches low at 350,,which means I can just point and shoot from here to 350 and have dead deer,,
but dont put me in the mad man,shoot at ever deer I see bunch,,I have let more deer walk at ranges that were absolute chipshots,but the conditions were not in my favor,,I use a bipod and shoot prone at long range,,I actually had a chance at a decent buck one time according to my ranging methods was about 530,but when I flopped out prone the angle of the shot,was to the point my bipod wasnt high enough to make the shot,,I laid the rifle in the forks of a tree kneeling and I just couldnt hold it steady enough to try it and let it walk,,
anways here is my wide forend,high powered tacticle scoped rifle that is just so advanced that it should be automatic at any range,,
no hard feelings at all,,I am glad I did this thread,,and I am thankfull for everbodys input,I will never setup and intentionally put myself at a disadvantage,,but when the shot presents itself,,bet your [censored] I will try it,,if conditions are favorable,if they are not I will let it walk,,but call it what you want,,it is something in my bucket list I want to do,,even if it is just to say I did
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Tndeer`s resident poacher and desperate loser
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