#1997161 - 07/16/10 10:48 PM
Re: Why a limit change?
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Yes, I see some of it on my lease just like you see on yours. But, I, personally would not be quick to make the jump that it is happening enough to even be an issue unless you are seeing something in our statewide data that I'm totally missing.
We do seem to see the worst examples of antler high-grading on hunting areas that have antler restrictions such as "4 on a side", or simply "8 points", etc. The antler restrictions have been a mixed blessing at best. But, again, what I'm "seeing" is not found within the statewide data.
Having done much hunting on QDM clubs with antler restrictions, I did become acutely aware of the high-grading issue many years ago. Maybe that's what it took to "see" it more even in places without antler restrictions; or to notice a difference between the north side of the State line vs. the south side of the State line, where the only obvious difference was with the attitude of the hunters regarding which side of the line they were hunting.
The only scientific data I have seen out there where high grading is even a remote issue is in states where antler restrictions may make hunters take a disproportionate number of the prime yearlings that happen to fall into that antler point class a year earlier than planned. While some TN clubs manage (or maybe mis-manage) by point rules, it isn't a state rule and IMO isn't that widespread.
I largely agree with you on this, except that I see the problem as being more widespread. With exception to those states experimenting with antler restrictions, there simply is little data period. But regarding those states, it's not just an issue of the "prime" yearlings, it's also an issue of the above average 2 1/2's being harvested at a higher rate than in areas having no antler restrictions at all. The result is that areas with antler restrictions may end up with the average 3 1/2 having smaller antlers than compared to areas with no antler restrictions at all. Yet this data still says nothing regarding to what degree the antler high-grading is happening anyway, even in areas without antler restrictions.
Then there's the case where certain antler restrictions just rearrange how the high-grading happens. What about the antler restriction of limiting a legal buck to only one with 9 or more antler points? That may exclude near 100% of the yearlings, but at the same time greatly increase the harvest of the best 2 1/2's, but worse (imo), actually prevent the harvest of many of the largest antlered mature bucks, some of which just never grow more than 8 points, even though they may score high by B&C criteria.
Absent of data to the contrary, my quess is hunters are shooting the largest racked deer they see at the same rate they were 25 years ago. It is my understanding that our yearling kill was the lowest we've ever had this past year, so the yearlings aren't being hammered as bad as they used to be. Outside of very localized situations (like your lease), I have great doubts that enough high grading is going on to amount to any issue or problem.
But then, it's hard to analyze data that doesn't exist.
I disagree on hunters choosing their bucks similarly to how they did 25 years ago, yet do agree, many are choosing to harvest the largest antlered bucks they see, most commonly a top-end yearling or an above average 2 1/2.
Twenty-five years ago most hunters simply killed ANY buck they saw. True, it would have been the largest antlered one they saw. But it was also the smallest antlered one they saw.
Today, a huge growing segment of TN's deer hunters are voluntarily passing up average and below average yearling and 2 1/2-yr-old bucks. Despite my concerns of antler high-grading, despite my criticism of antler restrictions, I continue to believe more good than harm is resulting from allowing more bucks to achieve older ages, even if they do end up being the bucks that grow the smallest antlers within their age classes.
So I very much agree with you that yearlings are not being "hammered" anything like they were years ago. Neither are 2 1/2's. But my contention is the very largest antlered young bucks are in fact being "hammered" at a relatively higher rate today than they were 25 years ago. Of course, back then it was relatively rare for any TN buck to live to 3 1/2 period.
Today, we have a good population of 3 1/2-yr-old bucks "statewide" in TN. Maybe even more than KY. I'm happy about that. But would like to see more hunters become aware of the high-grading issue. We can make it better.
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#1997168 - 07/16/10 10:56 PM
Re: Why a limit change?
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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I'll add one final thought in the form of a question, and this question meant only for those avid hunters who hunt both TN and some other state that is considered a "trophy" designation state, such as KY, IL, Indiana, Ohio, etc.
Do you personally pass up larger antlered bucks in those other states than you do in Tennessee?
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#1997178 - 07/16/10 11:07 PM
Re: Why a limit change?
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24565
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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YES,was on the phone with a friend,a 125 was in bow range in INdiana in late mzl season there,hoping for a bigger one
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#1997193 - 07/16/10 11:23 PM
Re: Why a limit change?
[Re: Football Hunter]
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Boone 58
16 Point
Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13540
Loc: Food Plot
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Wow....................
this one thing just wont die will it?
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#1997217 - 07/17/10 12:00 AM
Re: Why a limit change?
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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scn
12 Point
Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 6979
Loc: Brentwood, TN US
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I'll add one final thought in the form of a question, and this question meant only for those avid hunters who hunt both TN and some other state that is considered a "trophy" designation state, such as KY, IL, Indiana, Ohio, etc.
Do you personally pass up larger antlered bucks in those other states than you do in Tennessee?
Yes, without a doubt, I pass up deer I would be very happy with here in TN. I know that by and large there is 20" more of bone per year up there than on a TN deer (IMO), and I set my standards and expectations accordingly. I've got a couple etched in my memory that should have been shot (or maybe shot at in my case), but they got to walk because they weren't what I was looking for at the time. I don't try to hold out for a B&C deer, but I've let several P&Y class deer walk on by.
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#1997246 - 07/17/10 05:17 AM
Re: Why a limit change?
[Re: BowGirl]
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102
10 Point
Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 3653
Loc: Tennessee
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Of course we pass up bucks EVERY year that would be considered not only larger antlered bucks at home, but most likely OLDER and more mature at home. At home, they would NOT get a pass.
WHY??? For the exact same reason I would also grant that pass to a similar deer in Stewart, Williamson, or Montgomery County. Because in these Counties (and MANY others in Tennessee) I would hold out for a higher scoring buck.
It is MUCH more common to see a larger antlered buck in Southern Illinois or some of the top Counties in Tennessee thatn it is in MOST of the Mountainous Counties I frequent in Tn.
I am fairly certain that where you get the previledge to hunt, large antlered bucks (110 plus) are not an uncommon a sight. They are in the Tn. places we hunt. Even for the older aged deer.
102
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#1997331 - 07/17/10 09:20 AM
Re: Why a limit change?
[Re: 102]
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BoneHead1
4 Point
Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 199
Loc: East tn
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I hunt mostly the mts here in far east tn and to be perfectly honest im happy to even see deer when i go out.These are big woods deer and i don't get to spend the time i would like to hunt them.(IMO) it's very hard to locate these older bucks. The way it's looking this yr we are going to have a large acorn crop so that should make for even harder hunting. These deer will lay in these thickets. get up and eat...then lay right back down.
IMO middle, west TN compared to east tn are totally different worlds when it comes to hunting.
With such short vacation time at work i don't mind spending the money to travel to hunt for a few weeks in another state. Personally i see more deer, and it makes for a more enjoyable time.Weather i kill a buck or not.I have been very lucky though!!
If it's the skills im a lacking for these mt. bucks, well who knows. I just here and see what is being killed at the check stations and don't see very many older bucks.
P.S And im not one to hunt next to the road either. These mts. go forever!!
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#2001377 - 07/20/10 09:24 PM
Re: Why a limit change?
[Re: BoneHead1]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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I just here and see what is being killed at the check stations and don't see very many older bucks.
How do you know the ages of those you see at the check stations?
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